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Author Topic: Cockpit instrument panel works sometimes  (Read 1419 times)

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ChrisW

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Re: Cockpit instrument panel works sometimes
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2019, 09:05:47 AM »

It looks like my last post didn't go through.  I tried to upload some pictures.

I tried shorting the B to the I and the gauges do work when I do this. So does this mean it's probably not a ground problem after all?

It seems strange to me that it would be a bad switch seeing as it is new and I had the same problem with the old one.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2019, 09:52:51 AM by ChrisW »
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KWKloeber

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Re: Cockpit instrument panel works sometimes
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2019, 11:01:24 AM »

[edit]. Repost ur pix. Thereís an auto resize extension that is supposed to blow down large attachments but sometimes it chooches out.

You could still have other issues.


Back up (actually down) to my 2nd post.

What brand key switch did you use?

It could be, but unlikely, that you have more electrocical type current going thru that switch than intended and is burning the I contacts. Disconnect the leads, power the gauges directly and count the electrons passing that way. Maybe thereís a partial short thatís pulling current but not enough (yet) to fry a wire insulation or burn up the harness/panel/boat. Gauges pull inconsequential current.
As Iíve hollered about too many times THE OEM HARNESS IS NON COMPLIANT AND A FIRE HAZARD and **must** be fixed by adding a fuse.
Hopefully your issue is just a bad switch. Use a skookum one (nuttin but Cole Hersee.)

k
« Last Edit: February 09, 2019, 11:07:48 AM by KWKloeber »
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Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
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ChrisW

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Re: Cockpit instrument panel works sometimes
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2019, 12:28:41 PM »

[edit]. Repost ur pix. Thereís an auto resize extension that is supposed to blow down large attachments but sometimes it chooches out.

You could still have other issues.


Back up (actually down) to my 2nd post.

What brand key switch did you use?

It could be, but unlikely, that you have more electrocical type current going thru that switch than intended and is burning the I contacts. Disconnect the leads, power the gauges directly and count the electrons passing that way. Maybe thereís a partial short thatís pulling current but not enough (yet) to fry a wire insulation or burn up the harness/panel/boat. Gauges pull inconsequential current.
As Iíve hollered about too many times THE OEM HARNESS IS NON COMPLIANT AND A FIRE HAZARD and **must** be fixed by adding a fuse.
Hopefully your issue is just a bad switch. Use a skookum one (nuttin but Cole Hersee.)

k

This is the key switch I have:
https://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm/product/1303_748/3-position-ignition-switch.cfm

It's a Sea Dog.

I measured 10 milliamps for the gauges.  The engine wasn't running when I checked.  I had a little trouble gatting the current to flow through my multimeter for some reason.  I'll try to post pictures again.
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ChrisW

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Re: Cockpit instrument panel works sometimes
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2019, 12:48:17 PM »

The file sizes are too big for me to upload the pictures. After multiple retries I finally get an error message.  I am going to have to find a way to make them smaller or open an account somewhere that will let me upload them and then link them here.
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KWKloeber

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Re: Cockpit instrument panel works sometimes
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2019, 12:59:10 PM »

If you havenít. Try one at a time.

Otherwise search on the subject on the home page (not here) search box.
Itís been well discussed before b
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Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
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Stu Jackson

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Re: Cockpit instrument panel works sometimes
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2019, 01:21:41 PM »

The file sizes are too big for me to upload the pictures. After multiple retries I finally get an error message.  I am going to have to find a way to make them smaller or open an account somewhere that will let me upload them and then link them here.

Chris,

From the 101 Topics:

Posting and RESIZING Photos 101  http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,3701.0.html

Ken's right, just do a few at a time.  I find medium works just fine, even small, when you resize.
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ChrisW

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Re: Cockpit instrument panel works sometimes
« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2019, 01:46:59 PM »

[edit]. Repost ur pix. Thereís an auto resize extension that is supposed to blow down large attachments but sometimes it chooches out.

You could still have other issues.


Back up (actually down) to my 2nd post.

What brand key switch did you use?

It could be, but unlikely, that you have more electrocical type current going thru that switch than intended and is burning the I contacts. Disconnect the leads, power the gauges directly and count the electrons passing that way. Maybe thereís a partial short thatís pulling current but not enough (yet) to fry a wire insulation or burn up the harness/panel/boat. Gauges pull inconsequential current.
As Iíve hollered about too many times THE OEM HARNESS IS NON COMPLIANT AND A FIRE HAZARD and **must** be fixed by adding a fuse.
Hopefully your issue is just a bad switch. Use a skookum one (nuttin but Cole Hersee.)

k

The wire in the picture was attached to the I terminal of the key switch.  I have no idea where it goes to.  It's 12 gauge duplex cable. Only the red wire was connected to the I.  When I remove it the engine starts just fine. This was the wire that I replaced a connecter on last week. But the plastic around the edges look just a little bit burnt.
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ChrisW

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Re: Cockpit instrument panel works sometimes
« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2019, 01:54:50 PM »

First image is of the harness behind the panel.

Second is the side of exhaust manifold where I now know the panel negative is connected. It's a black wire under the green one.

Third is back of the panel.
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KWKloeber

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Re: Cockpit instrument panel works sometimes
« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2019, 02:25:39 PM »

 

Can't see all the sw, need another angle  (<<<Lotsa pix, many angles. The panel also.>>> !!)

Is that a BARE BLACK wire on another switch terminal?  B or S terminal?

What wires are on
the S terminal?
the B terminal?

The black box in the engine compartment is the preheat relay modification, which energizes your glow plugs. 
FYI (JTSO) a really stupid and over-hyped mod that adds multiple failure points and failure modes to your electrical and starting, with the benefit of saving you 15 seconds in preheat time.   whoopie.

The purple wire powers your gauges and likely the alternator field excite.
The red wire is likely your fuel pump.
PO's duplex wire could be ?????? who knows.

In summary, you need a good go thru on the wiring at the engine end and suggest the improvements I previously posted for there.
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Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor.  Catch the tradewinds in your sails.
Explore.  Dream.  Discover.   -Mark Twain

KWKloeber

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Re: Cockpit instrument panel works sometimes
« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2019, 02:52:32 PM »

Chris

The green wire underneath the harness negative (manifold stud) is the negative side of the coil of the added-on relay that powers the glow plugs.

It appers that you still have the gummy bear plug on the harness behind the panel.  How about on the engine end? 
That plug HAS TO GO.

The panel should be rewired with marine grade heat-shrink terminals and lose the automobile Sta-Kon terminals.
Same for ALL the engine component terminals on the other end.   Replace the yellow/red stripe "S" wire if it is not 10 gauge.
Plus the stuff prev posted.
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Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor.  Catch the tradewinds in your sails.
Explore.  Dream.  Discover.   -Mark Twain

ChrisW

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Re: Cockpit instrument panel works sometimes
« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2019, 03:23:38 PM »

 

Can't see all the sw, need another angle  (<<<Lotsa pix, many angles. The panel also.>>> !!)

Is that a BARE BLACK wire on another switch terminal?  B or S terminal?

What wires are on
the S terminal?
the B terminal?

The black box in the engine compartment is the preheat relay modification, which energizes your glow plugs. 
FYI (JTSO) a really stupid and over-hyped mod that adds multiple failure points and failure modes to your electrical and starting, with the benefit of saving you 15 seconds in preheat time.   whoopie.

The purple wire powers your gauges and likely the alternator field excite.
The red wire is likely your fuel pump.
PO's duplex wire could be ?????? who knows.

In summary, you need a good go thru on the wiring at the engine end and suggest the improvements I previously posted for there.

Sorry, that bare black wire was what I put in temporarily today to short the I to the B on the key switch. It's gone now.

Which red wire are you referring to in regards to the fuel pump? Where should it be attached?  In the wiring diagram for the engine, on the key switch there are only two terminals: B and A, and it says the fuel pump should be attached to A.  But I only have B, S, and I.

The red wire is on the B.  A white wire is connected to S. Purple and the red wire from the duplex cable is on I.  The red wire is from the battery.  Nowhere in the wiring diagram is there mention of a white wire.  In fact, the whole wiring diagram does not seem to make any sense. It shows the purple wire going to and from the key switch but I only have it going out of it.

It looks like I am just going to have to start from scratch and rewire the whole damn thing.
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KWKloeber

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Re: Cockpit instrument panel works sometimes
« Reply #26 on: February 09, 2019, 05:08:41 PM »

Use the file I had w/ the descriptions,  I SAID, colors can change.  They are not consistent between ALL years/panels/engines. They can even change between what Seaward and Universal used, and the harness CTY ran between those two.

The RED wire on I is likely your fuel pump, powered whenever the key is on.

OK, now I see the #10 WHT wire on S now - that powers the coil on the preheat relay down below.  It used to run to the glow plugs (might be called out as gray?)

The #10 RED on B is the power feed from the starter solenoid B terminal (UNFUSED!!!!)

The yellow wire from the Start PB is the "S" wire circuit to the starter solenoid.  It's light, needs to be #10 gauge.

The #10 orange wire from the harness -- where does that terminate on the panel (just unused and hanging)?  After you remove the gummy bear plug, you can substitute that #10 orange wire for the "S" circuit.


On the schematic basically, A is I.  The start and preheat were separate push buttons -- BUT REMEMBER the M-25/XP schematic is for the Universal panel, NOT your (or my) Seaward panel that CTY installed.  There were 3-4 different Seaward panels produced for the M25 and XP.  I have a key start and separate preheat toggle sw.  So no single schematic covers all the permutations.

PO obviously powered something else from I - have no clue.  Trace it?
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Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did.
So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor.  Catch the tradewinds in your sails.
Explore.  Dream.  Discover.   -Mark Twain

ChrisW

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Re: Cockpit instrument panel works sometimes
« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2019, 07:27:51 AM »

Use the file I had w/ the descriptions,  I SAID, colors can change.  They are not consistent between ALL years/panels/engines. They can even change between what Seaward and Universal used, and the harness CTY ran between those two.

The RED wire on I is likely your fuel pump, powered whenever the key is on.

OK, now I see the #10 WHT wire on S now - that powers the coil on the preheat relay down below.  It used to run to the glow plugs (might be called out as gray?)

The #10 RED on B is the power feed from the starter solenoid B terminal (UNFUSED!!!!)

The yellow wire from the Start PB is the "S" wire circuit to the starter solenoid.  It's light, needs to be #10 gauge.

The #10 orange wire from the harness -- where does that terminate on the panel (just unused and hanging)?  After you remove the gummy bear plug, you can substitute that #10 orange wire for the "S" circuit.


On the schematic basically, A is I.  The start and preheat were separate push buttons -- BUT REMEMBER the M-25/XP schematic is for the Universal panel, NOT your (or my) Seaward panel that CTY installed.  There were 3-4 different Seaward panels produced for the M25 and XP.  I have a key start and separate preheat toggle sw.  So no single schematic covers all the permutations.

PO obviously powered something else from I - have no clue.  Trace it?

I apologize for this, but the picture I uploaded made it look like an additional red wire is attached to the I terminal.  It is actually just dangling and it was for a cigarette lighter that does not work anymore. I removed it from the B terminal.  So there are only two wires connected to the I terminal: purple, and the red from the duplex.

I traced that duplex wire to the fuel pump. But if the I terminal on the key switch was not getting power, how was the fuel pump getting power?  Would the engine start without a working fuel pump?  Well, I am not sure, but it looks like it could be getting power from a different source.  In the attached picture you can see where the connection is made from the duplex wire and a separate set of red and black wires.  Now it may be that that other wire is not powering the fuel pump.  I haven't figured it out yet where it goes.

The orange wire is just dangling there behind the panel and near the engine.

I am going to post some better pictures in a little while including the panel and engine harness.
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ChrisW

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Re: Cockpit instrument panel works sometimes
« Reply #28 on: February 10, 2019, 07:47:46 AM »

Panel and engine harness
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ChrisW

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Re: Cockpit instrument panel works sometimes
« Reply #29 on: February 10, 2019, 07:51:01 AM »

Another view of engine showing alternator.

Additional views from behind panel.
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