Two engine room leaks for the price of one! Is this as bad as I'm afraid it is?

[Sailing Amok]

On the hard north of Lake Superior. Back in mid February I did my usual monthly check of Coral Wave and found about 100cc of what appeared to be diesel in the aft most bilge. I say "what appeared to be" because it was -30c, so my olfactory and tactile senses were pretty well nonexistent. I checked around the engine, and from what I could figure the leak was at the lift pump. I'm hoping it is just something to do with expansion/contraction of the hoses and clamps. I went back to the boat today, exactly one month later, and there was about the same amount of liquid in the bilge. So, I think I'd call this a slow leak but it should be noted that we've never had any leak while the boat was in the water.

Anyway, this brings me to the second problem, which has me more concerned. While checking the engine over to see what was wet and what wasn't, I noticed a couple drops of coolant on the heat exchanger. It was just a couple drops, perhaps it has run along the hx via surface tension from the petcock? For some reason I was inspired to open the manifold cap, and this is where I really scared myself. The manifold is pretty well empty... Given the -40c days we had last month, I'm naturally spooked that something important has cracked. I don't see signs of antifreeze anywhere though, other than the drops on the hx. Again the liquid in the bilge appears to be diesel, and there isn't THAT much. I've read many of the "disappearing coolant" threads on here, but they all seem to relate to either coolant disappearing from the expansion bottle in the winter, or if elsewhere when the engine is running, not winterised. When the boat is laid up, where could it have gone in this case? The drain is open on my our water tank, so if it dumped in there I'd think it would have emptied into the bilge. If a crack were in the hx, I don't think it would drain the manifold as the hx is a higher point, and the engine isn't running and system therefore isn't under pressure. I didn't check the expansion tank today, but it has always been bone dry since we purchased the boat. The manifold has always been full, and that was good enough for me. We don't know if the PO had PG or EG in the system, so the plan was to leave it alone and drain/flush this spring, rather than guess and risk gelling of a wrong coolant combination. Frankly, I haven't been concerned about coolant, as the constant 4c temp of Lake Superior keeps the engine plenty cool.
Anyway, if it were your boat, where would you start searching for the missing coolant/dreaded crack? Are there any tests I can do, such as a pressure check while on the hard, or do all those tests require the boat to be operable, not winterised?
As always, thanks for any advice!

[Kyle Ewing]

I'm in Chicago and lose some anti freeze almost every winter.  Every spring I refill and don't lose a drop until the next winter.    My bilge collects water because of the keel stepped mast so it's hard to say how much makes it to the bilge. 

I worried until someone (maybe here) reported the same problem caused by thermal related leaks around hoses.  It still happens no matter how much I tighten hose clamps in the fall.

You could check the oil (level and smell) to make sure it didn't get inside the engine.  Did you check around the water heater for leaks?  Coolant is 50% water so some will evaluate.

Someone else will comment on pressure tests.
 

[Dwainideus]

Amazon sells radiator pressure testers which enable you to pressurize the cooling system with the engine off.  If there is a leak you should be able to find it.

[Noah]

On the hard north of Lake Superior. Back in mid February I did my usual monthly check of Coral Wave and found about 100cc of what appeared to be diesel in the aft most bilge.

Coild be a pin hole in your furl tank. A pretty common issue. Been there down that.

[Ron Hill]

Aaron : On the HX coolant leak I wouldn't worry now that it is empty.  What I do in the fall is winterize the engine with the lowest temp engine and then pull out the old Zn and drain the HX.  There might be some residual anti freeze still in the HX, but it's essentially empty - so nothing can freeze!!  Insert a new Zn and I'm ready for the spring!! 

A few thoughts

[Sailing Amok]

Thanks gang. I feel slightly better that I didn't get a bunch of immediate responses of "You've cracked your engine, the missing antifreeze is all in the block". That being said, I will take Kyle's advice and check the oil level/smell. I should have thought of that. Fingers crossed the oil level has not gone up since putting her away for the winter. Ron, I should have removed the pencil zink after winterising, that would make sense since I'll be replacing it in the spring anyway. Next year will do.
We have a social at the clubhouse this weekend, so I will ask around and see if anyone may have one of those pressure testers I can borrow.
Given that I was planning to flush and change the antifreeze this season anyway, I'm contemplating bringing the HX home this weekend to clean, have tested, and paint. Is my life going to be significantly more difficult if I do this all on the hard vs in the water? My main concern is with regard to bleeding the system. My understanding is that if I use a pump to transport the new coolant through the entire loop, there shouldn't be too much bleeding to do. Would an airlock show up in the limited time I'd run the engine on the hard, or am I likely to think I'm fine, launch the boat, and have it overheat while floating around helplessly blocking the boat launch? Obviously I won't be able to do the coolant change until the risk of freezing has past, as we'll need to run the engine with water feeding the raw water side.

P.S Noah, when you had your tank pinhole, did you replace it immediately, or patch it?

[Noah]

Replaced my fuel tank. Patching was not an option. If you remove your aft bunk starboard bulkhead you should be able to see if there is "wetness" on the fuel tank shelf.

[waughoo]

I rany my engine on the hard with a "fake a lake" over the through hull.  It SHOULD be possible to bleed it but it will take a long time to get the engine warm enough to open the T stat due to not being able to load the engine.

As for the pressure tester, I rented the one I used from my local auto parts store.  They sell it to you and if you bring it back, they refund the full purchase cost.  For those seldom used tools like that, I was pretty happy with the option.

[Stu Jackson]

I rany my engine on the hard with a "fake a lake" over the through hull.  It SHOULD be possible to bleed it but it will take a long time to get the engine warm enough to open the T stat due to not being able to load the engine.

>>>>>>>>>>

Alex, my experience with this method:

Engine Overheating 101 - How to Burp Your Engine (Reply #6)  http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4518.msg26462.html#msg26462

was that it did the bleeding and I never had to use the T petcock ever again.  Once the coolant flows through it means the air bubble is gone.  I do this on a cold engine.

[Sailing Amok]

Made it to the boat today to do some more investigating. I pulled the hx zink to drain the fresh water side antifreeze and check its colour. It looked a lot more green to me than I remember. It was the blue -100 PG stuff, and now it looks more teal I think.  Kristina disagrees, so maybe it's my imagination. My thinking was that it would have turned green from the blue PG mixing with the green-yellow EG from the fresh water side, if there is a leak in the hx. Anyway, after that I opened the petcock to drain the fresh water antifreeze, or what's left of it. How much would you expect to get out of the heat exchanger petcock? I know the entire system is something a bit under 7L, but I imagine a good amount of that would be lower than the hx, like in the hot water tank loop? I got out what is in the jug in this photo. I guess that's about 2.5l or so if that's a gallon jug. The small graduate is filled with all the blue/green Antifreeze that came out of the hx through the zink port. Tomorrow I'm going to head back to the boat and pull the hx to clean it up and get it pressure tested.

[scgunner]

Like skinning a cat there's more than one way to evacuate the air from your cooling system. I prefer the easiest and quickest method myself. Which involves actually "burping" the cooling system. Simply remove the cap and place rags around the opening then fire up the motor run it up to about 1500 rpms then goose the throttle a few times. You'll see the coolant burble up (reason for the rags) that's the air blowing out of the system, that's the actual burping part. Then just top up, replace the cap and you're good to go.

[Sailing Amok]

So, I made it to the boat today, with the intention of removing the hx, cleaning it up, an getting it pressure tested. Loosening the bolts on the brackets revealed that the brackets are no longer welded to the hx, which seems to be a common issue. If only it was so easy to remove the hoses. I can't for the life of me get the port side hose (to the vented loop) free. It turns easily, but because it is such a stiff, wire reinforced hose, I can not for the life of me get it free. Also, due to positioning and obstructions, I can't get the upper port side hose ( to the coolant pump) free.That one doesn't budge at all. Any suggestions? Am I best to just disconnect them from the other ends, since they are likely due for replacement anyway? That upper port side hose appears to be a moulded item, I'm guessing that would need to be ordered through Catalina.

[Stu Jackson]

1.  If only it was so easy to remove the hoses. I can't for the life of me get the port side hose (to the vented loop) free. It turns easily, but because it is such a stiff, wire reinforced hose, I can not for the life of me get it free. Also, due to positioning and obstructions, I can't get the upper port side hose ( to the coolant pump) free.That one doesn't budge at all. Any suggestions?

2.  Am I best to just disconnect them from the other ends, since they are likely due for replacement anyway?

3.  That upper port side hose appears to be a moulded item, I'm guessing that would need to be ordered through Catalina.

1.  For removing old wire reinforced hoses, I use a utility knife (box cutter) or a Dremel tool.  If you're going to replace the hoses, then don't worry about wrecking them when you remove them.  To avoid this problem in the future, I slather Lanocote inside the end of the hoses before I reinstall them.  Makes it much easier to remove them in the future.

2.  Yes.

3.  Here's a resource for you for that hose under the coolant pump on the engine, from the 101 Topics:

Engine Coolant Pump Hose 101 - Toyota Part instead of Universal Pricing - the BLACK curvy one under the pump  1" to 7/8"
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,7084.msg47677.html#msg47677

That's for an M25 series engine, may be the same 1" to 7/8" for your M35, sorry I don't know for sure.

[Sailing Amok]

Thanks Stu,
Never having worked with wire reinforced hose before I can't get over how stiff it is when you're dealing with minimal room to work, and can't approach it from a good angle. That's working on a boat though!
I'll definitely use Lanicote or an equivalent (Marelube?) when reassembling.
Thanks for the tip on the Toyota part, unfortunately it looks like the M35B has a more complicated hose with multiple bends in it. You can see some good photos of it here https://c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Flow_directions_in_engine_cooling_hoses_(both_early_and_B-series_engines) It's the port side hose back to the coolant pump.
It seems like I should just replace all the hoses since I'm going to this much trouble anyway, so may as well remove them in whatever way is easiest, without concern for maintaining their integrity. I'm thinking that it is probably important to consider the order of reassembly to make the process as easy as possible.

[KWKloeber]

[EDITED]

3.  Here's a resource for you for that hose under the coolant pump on the engine, from the 101 Topics:

Engine Coolant Pump Hose 101 - Toyota Part instead of Universal Pricing - the BLACK curvy one under the pump  1" to 7/8"
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,7084.msg47677.html#msg47677

That's for an M25 series engine, may be the same 1" to 7/8" for your M35, sorry I don't know for sure.

That hose is indeed for the M35 (and 25/XP/XPA/XPAC) but Coral Wave sports a 35B.

@ AAron:

You can either have the broken brackets re-brazed to the Hx (I don't recommend that) or get the new type straps from Seakamp.  I don't have the p/n but tell Kathy what you need.  The last I bought them was 2018 -- $25 for the pair. 

Seakamp Engineering Inc.
3985 Hammer Dr.
Bellingham WA  98226
360-734-2788
sales@seakamp.com

(They are closed on Fridays.)

To answer your PM question -- Thank you for asking and yes, I can get you the Hx to coolant pump hose.  BUT it would cost more because there would be double shipping.  Due to Westerbeke territory agreements my distributor cannot drop ship to you so would need to ship it to me then I to you.  My former Wb distributor would drop-ship anywhere, but alas they are no longer affiliated.

The link to that page seems to be incorrect (the forum has a quirk and drops the trailing ")" from a pasted-in URL.
c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Flow_directions_in_engine_cooling_hoses_(both_early_and_B-series_engines)

Catalina did not build the engine so the factory doesn't supply engine hoses -- it's a Westerbeke proprietary hose.

Here's the Wb dealers for ON:

Anthony-Keats Marine Ltd.
78 Talbot St. E.
Wheatley, Ontario N0P 2P0
Pete Anthony
Dan Vickery
(519) 825-4631
anth-kea@on.aibn.com
www.anthonykeatsmarine.com

Hansen Marine Eng. Inc.
Tioga Way, P.O. Box 1106
Marblehead Business Park
Marblehead, MA 01945
Bob Hansen
Fred Knowles
Phone:(781) 631-3282
hansen@hansenmarine.com
www.hansenmarine.com

You can also order parts directly on the Westerbeke website.

Be aware that there could be an issue if you replace the Tstat to exhaust manifold hose.  There's two different ones depending on the year and I could never get Westerbeke to send the correct molded hose (I LOVE Wb. )