Facet Fuel Pump Heats Up

Rick Allen · April 27, 2015, 10:13:16 AM

During the last several cruises, after an hour or so at 2500 RPM, the engine (25xp) will slowly lose power and die. My initial thought was air getting into the fuel system so I would immediately bleed the motor and after a while the engine will restart and regain power but only for another half hour or so, and then die out again. I would repeat the process until we were safely in the slip.
Another thing I noticed was our Facet pump was very hot, almost too hot to touch! This sounds like either a bad pump or an obstruction in the line. After inspecting all the usual suspects, including but not limited to, air from the primary Racor, installing a new Racor filter, installing a new secondary filter, checking the screen in the Facet Pump (Clear) and checking the fuel tank inlet for the dreaded pick-up screen (PO had already removed it), I removed the pump and took it my local parts guy for an opinion. He quickly did a bench test and indicated the pump didn’t sound right to him and we determined the pump was bad.
So last weekend I installed the new pump, checked the elec connections, installed all new 3/8 fuel line(Except the ½ return line), Installed all new filters, bled the system, checked and rechecked for air intrusion or any other blockages. I also added a fuel pump line switch as I did most of this work alone. Fired the motor up, ran up and down the estuary at 2500RPM for about 45 minutes with no issues. I pulled into the slip and now the NEW Facet pump is HOT!
Well crap…
I’m starting to run out of ideas here.
It’s time to consult the experts..
The filter and lines are installed correctly. Tank to Primary Racor to Fuel pump to secondary filter to injection pump.
I’ve read through much of Mainsail’s information and also Mr. Hill’s posts in the Tech Wiki and they’ve been very helpful.
I am going to replace the ½ return line next as that’s the only one I haven’t replaced yet. I even replaced the short line that runs from the secondary filter to the injection pump (Which I believe was original!) Hopefully it isn’t the injection pump itself. There is a PO installed fuel shutoff valve at the tank and it looks and works ok.
Any other ideas?
Am I missing something obvious?
What else could be heating up the fuel pump?
I’m not looking forward to the engine quitting again in tight quarters and having Stu shadow me back to my slip (Which he has graciously done.. Twice)..

A few pictures are here: http://public.fotki.com/sailorick/sv_painkiller/new-fuel-pump/

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks!

Gary · April 27, 2015, 12:00:04 PM

Installed a new Facet in our 1986, C34 with an M-25 engine some years ago and had the same overheating problem. Even took it back and tried another new Facet pump. Same problem.

Solution: leave your knurled fuel return line on the engine open 1/2 a turn and the fuel flow keeps the Facet nice and cool.

Have had no further problems.

Gary

Rick Allen · April 27, 2015, 12:57:46 PM

Thanks Gary, if the solution is that simple then you'll drink free in California forever!

I hadn't really considered that option before, I must have assumed that even with the knurled knob tightened down it still allowed some fuel into the return line. I'll give it a try next time I'm at the boat.

And I used to think it was my kids that gave me grey hair....

Thank you sir.

Gary · April 27, 2015, 01:16:43 PM

Hi Rick,

I am pretty sure you will find the pump runs cool with the return line know open 1/2 turn. Many C34 owners say they do this anyway as a way to continuously "polish fuel" in the tank and always leave it about a 1/2 turn open. The interesting and unanswered question is why this works ? Does it indicate a blockage somewhere else ? I will say that I was alarmed at the heat from the new pump and in 6 seasons can report that this solution has worked without any follow up problem.

Like the California drink offer :):) ~ please post and let us know if this solves your problem !

Gary

Ron Hill · April 27, 2015, 02:00:12 PM

Guys : When the fuel bleed knob is completely closed there is NO fuel returning to the tank.

If you slightly open the knob you then have a "self bleeding " fuel system.

A thought

Stu Jackson · April 27, 2015, 03:34:37 PM

OK, good advice.

What it does NOT answer is why Rick's engine faltered.

Nor does it answer the issue of the fact that my knurled knob is closed and my engine works just fine, going on 17 years.

I have not checked the warmth of the Facet fuel pump, but I will my next time out.

Ideas?

Gary · April 27, 2015, 04:02:45 PM

Good questions Stu.

You have put what I was wondering about into clear ideas. I am wondering too if Rick's fuel tank pick up may blocked and need to be removed. If that filter is still in place it can cause the engine to falter after running for an hour.

Also wondering if newer Facet pumps operate at a higher pressure than older models and do overheat without fuel flow through them. Since I am not an engineer or an expert in these matters this remains a question in my mind. Perhaps others have and can add more understanding to Stu's questions.

Interesting thread ?

Gary

Noah · April 27, 2015, 04:17:43 PM

Quote from: Ron Hill on April 27, 2015, 02:00:12 PM
Guys : When the fuel bleed knob is completely closed there is NO fuel returning to the tank.

If you slightly open the knob you then have a "self bleeding " fuel system.

A thought

Ron, regardless of whether it solves his Facet pump heating issue, are you recommending keeping this knob cracked open all the time while running? What is the upside/downside of doing this, for us non-mechanics out there.

Rick Allen · April 27, 2015, 05:45:01 PM

Quote from: Gary on April 27, 2015, 04:02:45 PM
Good questions Stu.

You have put what I was wondering about into clear ideas. I am wondering too if Rick's fuel tank pick up may blocked and need to be removed. If that filter is still in place it can cause the engine to falter after running for an hour.

Gary

Yes, the PO removed the fuel tank pick-up tube screen already and I removed the tube and made sure it was clear throughout. I'm making the assumption that the pump becoming hot and the engine faltering are part of the same problem. The pump is doing its job. It seems like a problem in the suck side as opposed to the blow side.

I'm down to the following ideas:
Replace the 1/2" fuel return line or check for a blockage (I've replaced all other fuel lines).
Re-check Racor fittings and check valves for a blockage
Look at the engine fuel injection pump, per Mr. Hill's Wiki article. Yuck..
Re-check the fuel tank itself for sludge continuing to block the pick-tube, which seems unlikely as the fuel pump IS pumping fuel...

Ron Hill · April 28, 2015, 02:50:59 PM

Rick : It doesn't sound like the injection pump. The engine is quitting because it is either not getting fuel or air.

Disconnected the output from the electric fuel pump put a hose on it into a fuel can, turn on the switch and make sure fuel is squirting out.

The fuel lines from the tank are 3/8" and the return line is 1/4" (the thick hose fools you).
Also disconnect the fuel return line and again put another hose on it into a fuel container. Turn on the key to power the fuel pump and turn the bleed knob and look for fuel. Also run the engine like that and open the bleed valve and make sure that fuel is still flowing. Now you know fuel is flowing thru the system.

A few thoughts

Ron Hill · April 28, 2015, 03:00:39 PM

Noah : I got the idea to open the bleed knob a crack to have fuel flowing thru the system from Joe Joyce the Westerbeke service manager.

It allows fuel to flow thur the entire system making the Racor polish more fuel than with the knob closed. Probably makes the fuel pump pump more. Guess I ran the system with the bleed knob shut for 15 years and with it cracked for 10 years.
I liked the idea of having a self bleeding system with the knob cracked. Stu seems to like the closed system with the bleed knob closed. Your Choice!!

A thought

Stu Jackson · April 28, 2015, 03:18:29 PM

Quote from: Ron Hill on April 28, 2015, 03:00:39 PM

1 Guess I ran the system with the bleed knob shut for 15 years and with it cracked for 10 years.

2 I liked the idea of having a self bleeding system with the knob cracked. Stu seems to like the closed system with the bleed knob closed. Your Choice!!

1 If I try it, I'll have run it closed for 29 years and open for at least the first time when I do!

2 It's not that I like it closed, it's that I haven't tried it open! See #1!

Robert Mann · April 28, 2015, 04:52:39 PM

Rick, have you run a voltage check at the fuel pump terminals? Could this be an electrical issue? If after a period the pump is overheating and losing efficiency due to either under or over voltage heating it up it could give the appearance of a fuel restriction. Just a thought, if the mechanical fuel system issues all check out OK.

Noah · April 28, 2015, 05:19:12 PM

Thx Ron. Stu, I'd wait until your reach 30 yr. and then try it! Hate for you to miss that milestone!

Rick Allen · April 28, 2015, 11:17:37 PM

Quote from: Robert Mann on April 28, 2015, 04:52:39 PM
Rick, have you run a voltage check at the fuel pump terminals? Could this be an electrical issue? If after a period the pump is overheating and losing efficiency due to either under or over voltage heating it up it could give the appearance of a fuel restriction. Just a thought, if the mechanical fuel system issues all check out OK.

Good idea Robert, I'll add a multimeter to my bag of tricks when I head back to the boat on Saturday.
Also, Thanks Ron for the encouraging news about the injection pump. I was not looking forward taking that beast apart!

I'll report my progress next week!