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Messages - pbyrne

#16
Main Message Board / Re: Routing Cables in Cabin Roof
August 09, 2023, 09:26:07 PM
I have a cable clam on the port transom just above the davit mount, that the solar cable passes through and I connect that to the panel on top of the bimini.  The cable itself is zip tied for the season cleanly along the bimini framework.

The solar power cable runs from the aft, along the hull to the nav table, and then goes under the floor to the battery area where the MPPT controller is.

On haul out for winter, I remove the zip ties, disconnect the panels, and remove the bimini, fold the frame for the winter.

This works very well, and to be honest I don't know how else you'd want to do this.  The cable clam is out of the way, and you cannot really hide the wires any better IMHO.  You don't even notice it for the season, and it can all be disconnected cleanly.
#17
Main Message Board / Re: New Catalina Owner
August 09, 2023, 01:54:53 PM
Maybe this helps for context?  Mine's a 35B.  It vibrates a touch...https://www.youtube.com/shorts/bQR5bexjS8Y
#18
Main Message Board / Re: Creaking noise from rudder
August 09, 2023, 11:14:04 AM
Quote from: Ron Hill on August 08, 2023, 02:37:30 PM
pby : Your vidio definitely tells the story.  Try getting ahold of Warren Tandy (Catalina Yachts @727-544-6681) and have him look / hear your vidio.  He should be able to give you a diagnosis of what is happening and a possible fix.  If warren can't help You might even consider contacting Gerry Douglas.

A thought

I spoke with Warren.  Nice guy.

In a nutshell:

1) investigative drilling from below.  Either 1/4" drill bit working out from the middle in a few spots.  OR small hole saw in the same pattern.
2) if found to be wet, basically create a 'swiss cheese' pattern of holes with large hole saw, not close together, that will allow good access to remove wet core
3) epoxy fill cavity with putty filler(?), polyester, vinylester epoxy.
4) epoy the holes back into cockpit floor
5) sand
6) paint with gel coat from them

I summarized a bit, and I know zero about epoxy so I couldn't provide more details on that, but that's more or less what we discussed.

I'm going to start with rebedding the emergency tiller cover. That's at least an easy way to get a peek at the core without having to drill anything.  If it's dry, then I guess I start drilling.  If wet I'll try and scoop core from there, and move to drilling.
#19
Main Message Board / Re: Creaking noise from rudder
August 09, 2023, 11:09:01 AM
Quote from: Noah on August 08, 2023, 05:48:58 PM
Is it the cockpit sole flexing or an issue with the rudder post and associated bearings making noise, or both? I don't know. But you said "in the past there was a leak at the binnacle feet, enough to wet the cushions..." I again would suggest checking the core in the cockpit to rule out water damage to the core. If you get a high reading on a moisture meter, perhaps drill a few exploratory holes from below into the core and see if compromised. Much easier to cosmetically repair from below. If you eventually need to replace some core sections (hopefully not) there are ways to do it from below and the top. More on that "bridge" if needed, later.

The vid shows it pretty clearly to be the cockpit floor moving.  The floor moving does move over the rudder shaft up/down which is probably what's causing the creaking sound.  Is there something suspect with the bearings?  At this point I don't know, but the deflection of the cockpit floor is what's making the sound.

I have a moisture meter, Ryobi off ebay, coming, but its coming from California, to Ontario Canada via USPS/Canada Post, so it's taking the scenic route to get here..  I'll try the light hammer technique though.  At least that's something.

I had a good conversation with Warren at CY, and he advised the same thing.  Investigative drilling, either 1/4" bit, or small hole saw to see the core better.  He also, said to just epoxy fill, as a replacement for the wood core.

I think the simplest thing to start with is rebedding the emergency tiller cover.  Full removal of the SS ring, and see if the core is damaged there.  If so, maybe I can do the core removal from there, or at least minimize the amount of holes I might have to drill.
#20
Main Message Board / Re: Creaking noise from rudder
August 07, 2023, 08:04:49 PM
Quote from: Jim Hardesty on August 07, 2023, 05:42:13 PM
QuoteIf it's not normal, what is the issue?  I'm worried about sailing at this point...

Defiantly not normal.  Although I have never tried bouncing and measuring deflection on Shamrock, it feels solid.  My 2cents would be on a delaminated core.  I do believe it's safe for the rest of the season, wouldn't go much longer than that.  Think long and hard if you want to spend the time, money, and effort into doing it yourself.  IMHO it's not a quick easy fix to make it right. May be time to have a professional look at it to recommend repair and quote for repair.  Now would be the best time for that, before everyone hits them up for winter fixes.
One question.  Is your binnacle solid or does it have some wiggle, squeaks?
Your short video was great, it explains your concerns in detail in 30 seconds.
Jim

I'd have to check the binnacle, but from sailing her, it didn't seem to move. I did have to rebed the pedestal guard foots as they were leaking into the aft cabin.  Could it have been that that caused the delamination?

I'm open to a pro, but how would you fix this yourself?  I'm assuming the core behind the helm to the tiller cover is wet, and that the core needs to be repaired/epoxied.

Thanks! I try to video these things, as it's a lot easier to show than describe.  Also, there may be details that mean nothing to me but something to some one watching.
#21
Main Message Board / Re: Creaking noise from rudder
August 07, 2023, 03:15:40 PM
Quote from: Ron Hill on August 07, 2023, 02:18:08 PM
pby : NO the cockpit floor should NOT be Moving!??!  Don't know what to tell you???

A thought

I've recorded the movement here.  You can see the floor in the top of the vid, moving as it squeaks.  If it's not normal, what is the issue?  I'm worried about sailing at this point...

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/psdAQWWWVno
#22
Main Message Board / Re: Creaking noise from rudder
August 07, 2023, 10:37:04 AM
Quote from: Ron Hill on July 30, 2023, 12:45:17 PM
pby : If your rudder "creaks" from vertical movement - then you may need a new nylon bushing the next time you are on the hard!

I have a standard transom and to get rid of my vertical movement I bought a second nylon bushing (sanded is down to make it slightly thinner) and added it over the bushing that was already there.  That extra thickness took out that vertical movement!!!

A few thoughts

The creaking is happen because the cockpit floor is moving.  Is the cockpit floor supposed to move up and down?
#23
Main Message Board / Re: Creaking noise from rudder
July 30, 2023, 08:25:01 AM
Quote from: Jim Hardesty on July 28, 2023, 03:00:06 PM
Shamrock had a rudder/steering creaking noise when I first got her.  I removed the emergency steering access plate and flushed the top of the rudder post with lots of water while working the steering.  There was a fair amount of dirt.  The Oring on the access plate was bad so I replaced.  That was 15 seasons ago, hasn't returned.
As far as the floor flex.  I have no idea.
Hope that helps,
Jim

Did it creak when simply turning the helm?  It only creaks when you bounce up and down behind the helm on the cockpit floor.  It doesn't creak simply by turning the helm.
#24
Main Message Board / Re: Creaking noise from rudder
July 29, 2023, 11:15:40 AM
Quote from: Breakin Away on July 29, 2023, 10:46:49 AM
The Craftsman stud finder I used to have had 6 or 8 LEDs that indicated the capacitance level. It was good enough to do moisture gradients (and find studs). If you have a cheaper one with only one light it might not be as helpful.

I see.  Yeah I think mine just goes beep beep beep when you get close and solid tone on the edge of the stud.  Not much of a gradient.
#25
Main Message Board / Re: Creaking noise from rudder
July 29, 2023, 10:31:54 AM
Quote from: Breakin Away on July 29, 2023, 09:57:08 AM
Quote from: pbyrne on July 29, 2023, 09:17:43 AM
I haven't found any threads on the forum about this particular issue (if it is one).  But I've found others about damaged cockpit soles due to leaking pedestals.
I usually only use this site for C34-specific information. For general sailing and maintenance information, including things like moisture detection, I use Sailnet. Here are some posts of mine on the topic starting in 2010:

https://www.sailnet.com/threads/moisture-meters.62766/#post-582990
https://www.sailnet.com/threads/moisture-meters-are-not-capacitance-meters-or-radio-transceivers.81605/#post-805660
https://www.sailnet.com/threads/moisture-meter-recomendations.212833/page-2#post-3017130
https://www.sailnet.com/threads/low-cost-general-tools-moisture-meter.60824/#post-723423

Note that I mentioned using a capacitive stud finder, something that you may already have in your tool box.

Who's who on Sailnet:
TakeFive is me
boatpoker is Wallace Gouk, the surveyor whose site I linked in my prior post. Note that he started mentioning his use of the Ryobi meter around 2021, over 10 years after I posted about my tests with it.
PDQaltair is Drew Frye, who does pretty much all the testing for Practical Sailor magazine. His opinions hold a lot of weight.

Ah! Thank you I'll check out Sailnet going forward as well.

I do have a HD stud finder...I see your reference to them in that thread.  Does the stud finder simply read the moisture as a 'stud'?  I guess it must, as that's pretty much all it does!
#26
Main Message Board / Re: Creaking noise from rudder
July 29, 2023, 09:17:43 AM
Quote
$700 is ridiculous. Because Electrophysics CT100 was the first pinless one decades ago, they became a de facto standard for marine surveyors, with an inflated price to continue production at such a low volume. There are many different ones out there now for much less, and people have tested them, including me. Many are junk (stay away from General Tools, which is a random number genarator). The best one out there was the Ryobi E49MM01, previously sold at Home Depot for $40. Years ago I had bought one at HD and returned it (unused) because I figured I didn't need it right away and could buy it again when I need it. BIG MISTAKE. About 10 years ago some odd licensing agreement happened with Lowes that caused Ryobi to stop selling their small tools at HD, and the pinless meter was not picked up by Lowes. It was not available anywhere in the US, but reportedly remained available in Canada and elsewhere. Ryobi has since started selling at HD again, but neither HD or Lowes has any model of Ryobi pinless meter. I searched for it for a few years at both locations, Amazon, and elsewhere. Nothing. Eventually I had a slight leak on a chainplate, so I wanted the Ryobi so I could check for moisture intrusion while the chainplate was pulled. (As you've surmised, measuring near any metal parts causes false positives because the meter is measuring capacitance, which is through the roof for metal parts.) I found one on ebay for $35, and I recommend it for others:

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2334524.m570.l1313&_nkw=ryobi+pinless+moisture+meter+E49MM01

This surveyor has started using the Ryobi instead of his old Electrophysics CT100. Scroll down to the bottom of the page for his comments about switching to the Ryobi:
http://www.pcmarinesurveys.com/Moisture%20meter%20mythology.htm

I asked the guy to provide interpretations of his data from his Ryobi (hardwood setting) vs. the CT100. He never posted the Ryobi numbers on his website, but I captured them in a comparative table (attached).

That's good find.  I checked and they are not available in HD Canada, and Ryobi lists it as Discontinued.  I'll check out ebay, I can afford a hammer AND a used moisture meter!

Thank you for the table as well, that's very helpful.

I haven't found any threads on the forum about this particular issue (if it is one).  But I've found others about damaged cockpit soles due to leaking pedestals.

I hope I'm just being paranoid to be honest.  Maybe the deflection is normal, and leaking pedestals are just leaking pedestals...
#27
Main Message Board / Re: Creaking noise from rudder
July 29, 2023, 06:14:30 AM
Quote from: Jim Hardesty on July 29, 2023, 04:31:13 AM
QuoteYou could always test cockpit sole with a moisture meter. While they can be inaccurate in some uses, it might give a clue if the is soft enough to cause your perceived flex.
Quotethought of that but the meters are $700+.. not sure where I would get one.

An idea would be to drill a few quarter inch holes into the underside of the sole into the core.  That would be easy to fix and may give you some idea if the core is wet or delaminated.  You don't say where you are located, if it's somewhere that freezes water in the core could freeze, expand and create more problems. 
Maybe a few taps with a hard plastic hammer could give you a sound test for integrity.  Tap various places on the sole and compare.  That's the way surveyors used to do it.
Jim

Ontario Canada, so yes its on the chilly side, and yes that is also a good point.

Good idea about drilling.  How do you determine if it's wet, other than dripping of course.  Do you just poke around and see if it's solid?

I didn't know that about a plastic hammer.  I can afford one of those!  I guess you just want to hear a consistent sound, and nothing that seems 'hollow'?

#28
Main Message Board / Re: Creaking noise from rudder
July 28, 2023, 09:52:52 PM
When we got back I opened up the emergency tiller, moved the helm, and checked everything.  It didn't make a sound, and seemed tight.
#29
Main Message Board / Re: Creaking noise from rudder
July 28, 2023, 09:29:53 PM
Quote from: Noah on July 28, 2023, 07:51:56 PM
You could always test cockpit sole with a moisture meter. While they can be inaccurate in some uses, it might give a clue if the is soft enough to cause your perceived flex.

I thought of that but the meters are $700+.. not sure where I would get one.
#30
Main Message Board / Re: Creaking noise from rudder
July 28, 2023, 09:29:14 PM
Quote from: waughoo on July 28, 2023, 05:46:09 PM
Based on the bouncing vid, it looks like there is just some "schmutz" on the rudder stock at the upper bushing causing some noise.  Fiberglass does flex some so I can't say I would be immediately worried about that.  I would start with the cleaning recommended above and see what comes of it.

Dumb question.  Can you just point a hose at it and rinse away?  Nothing will happen putting water down the rudder shaft?