Messages

  Thank you Ron for getting back to me on this. If it's not raining today I'm going to take another wack at this and I will take some pictures. Are you pointing out that the K75 mounts the holes are not straight Accross from each other? I notice that and attempted to align them straight along and parallel to both the engine and the ledge of the mounting surface. But I must admit you triggered in me the possible thought I have something wrong and I better take a new look and make sure I'm not missing something. I'm getting really good at jacking up the engine lol. Yes 1987. I must be in the correct engine bracket holes to be so close to being aligned. Yet as said above your words have triggered me to give a closer inspection if I'm not missing something.

  After paying the price for my raw water pump leaking and rusting out my oil pan, I replaced both the pump and oil pan. At the same time I attempted to replace the old motor mounts with four K75 motor mounts. After finding out I did not have enough horizontal movement to align the drive shaft to 0.003 I had about 0.008 port side I attempted to waller out the holes in the mounts leaving very little meat left, I could only get it down to about 0.005 and still have vibrations in the cockpit floor over 1400 RPM.
  Question: am I not better just sucking it up and buying the original very well slotted mounts for $201.00 each plus shipping then going through Epoxying in the old holes and drilling new ones and yet still having no real horizontal adjustment. Anyone else tackled this problem and went back to the old mounts? Thanks.
  George

 
  Ken

  Ken wrote: If you want to see a top, top shelf electrical upgrade read Jon's write up on Della Jean the TechWiki!!

  Response: I did read all that. I was blown away at all the attention to detail. Sometimes I feel this site is just full of engineers.

     Stu Jackson wrote: Putting a fuse on the AO (alternator output) is a wise thing to do.  While the AO sends electrons TO the batteries, the fuse actually provides protection FROM a battery short whether the alternator is running or not.  While most think incorrectly that the alternator is the source of power being protected, it is actually the BOMB of the batteries that this fuse is protecting you from. If you've run your AO directly to the house bank, then the fuse/breaker can be used as a disconnect for when you work on the alternator, which is always live otherwise.  Maine Sail recommends an alternator disconnect switch and a fuse".

  Response: I used a 120 amp breaker AWG 1 wire for my alternator. My starter circuit is fused at 200 amp, so far its been good. You have enlightened me on the fact that it's the battery more so then the alternator that it's a great idea to fuse or breaker the alternator circuit. I installed a breaker for the convenience of safety and as you said an on-off switch. A note: I ran my alternator wire straight to my starter battery/windlass battery under the forward compartment of my salon table. For now till I find away to add an external regulator I am charging my four Trojans through a 30 amp DC to DC charger. Later with an external regulator I have enough wire to shorten my alternator wire and take it to the house bank. Then I will charge my starter battery with the DC to DC charger getting 3 stage charging for all in every way.   
    With all Victron charging equipment I can upgrade to lithium when prices fall and all have to do is reprogram. Hey anyone, my DC to DC charger has setting for lithium and two presents for AGM yet nothing for plain lead acid. A user can put in his own set points for bulk, absorption and float? Right now I have the DC to DC charger on AGM 1 as seen in my attachment. I want to get it as perfect as possible, thanks again. Stu, I think it was your diagram for the most part I followed for my upgrade. I loved what I think was Jon's design but I decided to reach for the moon and not the stars, Jon my God, well done. Stu, your was simple and to the point. Both appear to be excellent and an asset to any of us doing such an upgrade, thank you.

   

    Hello all.
  I fused my alternator at the battery large enough hopefully to avoid nuisance tripping yet offer protection in the extremely unlikely case of some sort of a short. The whole engine is ground so the wire breaking off, falling off or an object falling upon or being dropped will hopefully trip the breaker limiting damage. I know it's unlikely that such a thing should happen and we would lose our alternator diodes but that maybe a small price to pay. I am open to other opinions always. Below I leave a link to Pacific Yachting's video on why suggest fusing and or I take breakering the alternator, all they do at a large scale is electrical on boats. Again I'm always open to take a new look at things.

   
https://youtu.be/Y5HNd7S59RM

  Just a follow up on my 100 amp alternator upgrade. I installed with the good advice here the Leece Neville 8MR2401UA, I'm glad I spent the extra cash for the peace of mind. My attempt on my boat is to do everything as right as possible and as good as I possibly can. This takes everything down to a snails pace. It took me a complete day Saturday with the wire, terminals, breaker, heat shrink and associated hardware ordered in advance. Man that's a tight spot. The smallest things seem to bother me when it comes to my boat. I install a 120 amp breaker in my 100 amp alternator circuit, our diodes can't afford nuisance tripping. One is tempted not to install a breaker at all if it wasn't for the small possibility of a short and a fire at sea, no thank you. I have worked on electrical and around machinery all my life and I don't think I have come upon anything that has required so much discipline and patience as Boatwork, if done right or the attempt to do it right 😁
  I think it's the special nature of all the parts, material and their price along with a certain pride boaters have in being the best possible all around sailors they can be. What a great sport, hobby or lifestyle for one at any age. For most of us we are 50+ and we have to use it or lose it. I think as I said before, our boats are fixing us, all the bending and stooping, all the mental challenges keeps our minds sharp, I hope, One thing for sure as I crawl out of the aft cabin this morning and have my first cup of coffee, although I'm happy with myself with my completed alternator install, I feel beat to hell, strange it feels good and bad at the same time.
  This morning if I can get my belly down on the deck I will be installing my new windlass shelf, this time with 3M fast cure UV 4000 cocking, last week I just did a test fit. My goal is to have my windlass project with both forward and aft controls done by the end of May, all the earlier the better. I think boatwork is like sailing, don't try to sail to a schedule, rather allow in the case of sailing weather and conditions to dictate when our boats leave or return to the dock. And in the case of boatwork, it's conditions also, the condition of my wallet, the condition of my preparation and the condition of myself. Did I mention I have both knees replaced, total reconstruction of my right ankle with bolts going through two toe bone canals from toe to heel to support my arch, if I can upgrade my boat anyone can. Most of my sailing is solo. Why do I write this? Two and a half years ago after thinking for a long time I was to old and beat up to own a sailboat I watched a guy with one arm and one leg missing solo sailing around the world, that nudged me to purchase my own boat. Through all the ups and downs and uncertainty I have not regretted a single day, ok maybe one or two Lol. I think our greatest enemy is our own thoughts causing insecurity. Those thoughts appear to cease the moment the wind passes 15 knots and are replaced by the call of attention from our boats, what better friend is there then a friend who makes you forget about your troubles. My friend is The Sand Pebble. See you on a windlass thread.

This may be better as a separate post topic, but sounds like you're asking for feedback.

Regarding your windlass, the size of windlass for your need depends on the windlass manufacturer. When I added mine, I looked at Lewmar and Maxwell. To pick the right windlass, Lewmar said to multipy the total ground tackle by 4. Maxwell said to multiply the total ground tackle by 3.

Your ground tackle is 100 feet of 5/16" G4 HT chain ~ 1.1 lb/foot, plus 200 feet of 5/8" rope ~ .1 lb/ft., plus your anchor weight. Your total ground tackle is ~130 lbs. plus your anchor weight. What anchor do you have? Look up the specs for your windlass and that should answer your question about sizing.

  Hi Jon
  It was just earliar I mentioned one of my projects was a windless install. Your right I should start a new thread. Quickly I was given a real nice windless from a guy who did not know he sheared the key till he bought a new one, he had the new one for a year so he said to me take the old one. It's a Maxwell Vertical both gypsy and drum.

S/V SP

I just wanted to pass in that the guy who carries the Wilson Leece Neville remanufactured alternators told me that there's 3 of the 105a on the shelf if that's an option for your wallet (considerable saving over a brand new Leece.)

  I actually ordered the 105 amp unit without the sense wire and ordered the spacer today. Bob at ASE did not want to sell me the unit with the sense wire because he said it was not rated for the marine diesel environment. So I needed closure so I ordered the other unit L-N 8MR2401UA hoping one day I can do more with it. I feel like 150 years old after working on my windless install for half a day. Very little progress working on it myself, I think my 1/4" stainless shelf is a little heavy. I plan on only 100 feet of 5/16 chain and 200 feet of 5/8 3 braid line. I understand 5/16 chain is about 1 pound a foot so 100 feet and my windless should be ok. Hold onto your hat. My Alternator plus spacer and shipping out the door was about an even $300.00.
  I never look back, it's time to move forward finish these two projects and enjoy the summer.
  Thanks all.

Getting an accurate reading from the battery sounds logical and great but don't you have a voltage drop possible on the sense wire

The sense wire carries only milliamps current so there's no measurable V loss (just like you can use a tiny gauge wire to a V meter to measure 480 VAC on a 20 amp motor (there's "no" current flowing in the sense wires.)

are you saying that it maybe OK to use the starter feed wire as my alternator charging wire?

So how critical it is to maintain voltage when working with 12 volts is new to me yet I totally understand, one volt is everything, literally.

Yep, you're right it's very important to minimize DC V loss (depending of course on the purpose of the circuit.) 
My point was that a blanket statement that one cannot use the starter feed to charge the battery is not so for every owner/every boat.  There's thousands of Catalinas out there with that setup that work just fine.  It may be the best for you use and charging set up, but....  there's many ways to skin a Catalina.

Yes my boat took very little for a 5 hour day sail yet I don't know how long it's going to take to solve this problem.

Summer is upon us and local islands await. Worst comes and I carry a 2000 watt gas generator and my 120 volt charging system is two 30 amp Victron smart chargers, one is a single battery charger tied only to my house bank, the second 30 amp charger is a 3 battery charger dividing up that 30 amps between the demand of both my house bank and my starter battery so I think I can charge pretty quick that way if needed.

So if you are going to drastically increase your energy usage then, yes, you will push more out of the alt trying to replenish that greater usage (amp hours) and your alt *could* run hotter, depending on the difference.  But if you are using about the same amt of energy then you are not going to overheat the new alt.  You would have to drastically increase usage moving from 51a to a 105a to eat up belts.  How hard the alt works doesn't depend on the size/rating of the alt or size of the bank -- how hard it works depends on the energy it needs to replace.   A 105a will run cooler if doing the same work as the OEM 51a alt. 

Water flow Battery current 101-
Look at it this way -- you have a full 5-gal bucket (your old battery) and a full bathtub (your new bank) and take a gallon of water from each.  It doesn't matter the size of the container -- it still takes only one gallon, no more no less, to replace one gallon. 

Battery resistance determines the charge amperage -- not the size of the alternator.  So if you use a funnel (restricts the flow) to replace one gallon of water it doesn't matter whether you run a 3/8" hose or a 3/4" hose to the funnel.   The funnel (i.e., battery resistance) still controls the water flow (i.e., the charging current,) not whether it's a 3/4" hose (105 amp alt) or the 3/8" hose (51 amp alt) filling the funnel.
However, if you use a larger funnel (have a more depleted battery bank = lower resistance) the water flow (charge current) will increase proportionally (unless/until you reach the limit of the 3/8" hose (51 amp) or the 3/4" hose (105 amp.)

(In college the hydraulics profs always tried to tell us water is JUST like electricity -- and the EE profs said electricity is JUST like water.  We never bought into either of those ideas.)

  Thank you for putting all the above in such a clear and easy way to understand, one day I will pass it along, pay it forward. My old father rest in peace use to explain thing that way. You know what? Rest in peace? I have always hated that expression, I know a loved one in pain we want them to rest from that, yet my father, my best friend, I want him to be raising a good time the old scotchman. He use to explain things by using the example of water also whether that be electricity, air lines or even vacuum systems. As I think you know as most do here, boat work and upgrades are fought with frustration, pain, cuts and bruises. Yet by some magic miracle like a few extra feet of waterline a boat completely gets so much bigger, we end up celebrating our pain and suffering by sharing our success with our fellow sailors. And with that forgetting why we have band aids all over our arms. In the end I would trade it for nothing. Thanks again , I will will post upon completion a note here on where I'm at on my project and what if anything that is holding me back from putting the end of my project to rest and starting the next one. I'm hoping for a solar arch with solar and davits by the end of 2023, I'm 60 and getting tired of my dinghy on deck and lifting my now 3.5 hp outboard up and down to my dinghy. Did I mention an addition to a swim platform? Yes I'm all in, if I knew all this two years ago and had more money  I would of  bought an already upgraded series 5 Catalina. Yet it was not in the cards, what was in the cards was money thank God to slowly funnel in each year allowing me a hands on boat education, the physical activities to keep me both physically and mentally fit and maybe allowing me to live to 80 plus. How do you put a price on that? So I know why we men love our boats beyond the adventure, they keep us healthy and alive.

[Tell 'em you need a drop in replacement for an 8MR2049K alt.]

S/V SP

Tell 'em you need a drop in replacement for an 8MR2049K alt.

Your OEM (and mounting bracket) is a 2" foot, the 8MR2401UA has a 1" foot so you'll need a spacer from ASE.

As I suggested you might ask if there's a 105a model w/ external V sense (which will help you if you use this Alt until you get the Balmer hooked up.)  The Prestolite 105a 110-634 has external sense.  YBYC

You mentioned disconnecting your alternator.  You should disable it by disconnecting the excite wire, not the alternator output.

OK for the OEM alt -- note that the 105a 8MR2401UA is internally (self) excited and so S/V SP you won't use the purple wire in the engine harness.

but for now it will keep me maybe from burning up my alternator and belts to I come up with a better option.

You checked your energy usage and it's very low (during 5 hrs of sailing I believe you said?)  So why are you concerned about burning up the new alternator before the Balmer is installed?   

PS: running the charge wire to the bank is an OPTION, not the only option.

  As I talk to Bob tomorrow I will have a print out of the things you mentioned here today. You have mentioned about an external voltage sense wire being a good thing and I read a little bit about that last night. Getting an accurate reading from the battery sounds logical and great but don't you have a voltage drop possible on the sense wire just like the starter wire which on my boat is size #1 now. I size the starter wire not to have voltage drop.are you saying that it maybe OK to use the starter feed wire as my alternator charging wire? I normally work with 480/240/120 volt and voltage drop does not come into play till often 200 feet or more. So how critical it is to maintain voltage when working with 12 volts is new to me yet I totally understand, one volt is everything, literally.
  Yes my boat took very little for a 5 hour day sail yet I don't know how long it's going to take to solve this problem. Summer is upon us and local islands await. Worst comes and I carry a 2000 watt gas generator and my 120 volt charging system is two 30 amp Victron smart chargers, one is a single battery charger tied only to my house bank, the second 30 amp charger is a 3 battery charger dividing up that 30 amps between the demand of both my house bank and my starter battery so I think I can charge pretty quick that way if needed.

[quote author=SV Sand Pebble

If you are choosing between a 90a or 105A alternator and the cost isn't too different, get the larger one because it will run cooler at any given load.

You mentioned disconnecting your alternator.  You should disable it by disconnecting the excite wire, not the alternator output.

When ordering material like this, the telephone could be your friend, rather than just internet viewing or emails.  There are two very helpful fellows named Bob at ASE.  Ask for Bob who knows alternators and the Bob that answers the phone will switch you over to the other Bob.  

  Response to Stu and all.
Hello friends, Its been an up hill battle. Remember I ordered the clone from Catalina direct, the 105 amp alternator not knowing it was a clone? It was suppose to be on back order 5 weeks yet when I called to cancel it had already shipped. I ended up as Stu suggested talking to Bob at ASE and he said by the looks of things it's not a bad clone yet after he looked over everything he could not find that it was marine rated or UL listed. He said it was my boat yet for him and his boat he would rather buy the OEM marine rated part then the unknown. So I canceled my CD order, the girl there said they also have the Leece Neville available for like $750.00 I'm sure she'd not think that through. Bob asked me to check and measure the foot of my old alternator when I get to my boat tomorrow and then he and I could get together and order me the right thing I need, the right setup for my L-N 8MR2401UA. Tomorrow I will also talk to Bob about possible options for an external regulator connection of some sort. If not for now I will feed my new starter led acid windless battery with the alternator then feed my house bank with my already owned Victron 30 amp DC to DC charger offering my alternator protection and my house bank slow yet low amperage charging. I had the DC to DC charger for my house bank to charge my starter battery but for now it will keep me maybe from burning up my alternator and belts to I come up with a better option. Tomorrow I will have to add a separate charge wire directly to my starter battery, its located do to my new windless install under the bow side of the salon table, wire sized appropriately. I just learned from reading last night not to use the starter positive as the charge wire coming from the alternator. I will get through this Lol.
  As always thank you all for your support and anyone passing through Alamitos bay Long Beach California stop by dock 17 slip #48 for a beer if after five or a coffee anytime. A note: everything I have installed is so one day I can quickly drop in lithium house bank batteries if I so choose to. All just by changing programmable settings.

  I will at some point get better at posting here 😀

  George SV Sand Pebble georgelanroh@gmail.com

  Once again Jon, thank you your awesome.
  I do not know how a boat own owner with a modest income! Ado it yourself er who could successful without a site such as this and the good people willing to offer their experience. I love Catalina's for 90 percent of my sailing, I would not mind a Catalina 42 :) I sure wished they has a skeg protected rudder, I'm sure a hydrovane would make me feel better. Anyways I'm off to take the wife out today showing I can do more then sail or talk about sailing. Monday, cancel I'm order with CD, get an order of a new alternator coming and see if I can get that kit for hooking up my regulator. I know there has been a few windless pictures placed here on the site so I plan on sharing mine. It's quite the job yet im feeling really good about the future outcome. Again so much appreciation for all the help from everyone.
  George

  Thanks Jon
  All the little bits of advice here helps me to piece together the best plan possible. Stu mentioned the MC-618 that maybe the latest upgrade of the MC-614 from Balmar. I willfind that out when I go to order my regulator. If anyone has a catalog number or links to the Leece Neville 90 or 105 Alternator that would be great, if not I will bang away till I get through all this. I know when I get done with all this I will have an awesome boat.

 
  Thank you all.
  Stu,I was under the impression  that when I enlarged my house bank to 450 amp hours the larger bank if depleted could possibly overheat my old alternator. Even though I'm a industrial electrician I have had up I till lately very little experience with 12 volt systems and batteries. It feels good to begin to put the mystery of boat wiring to rest yet I still have A bit to go. Recently I disconnected my alternator  charge wire and had anew day sails for about 5 hours each. I was surprised even using my wheel autopilot during a ten knot day how little power I actually took from the house bank. Yet if I can hobble along on my old alternator till I have the chance to get both my alternator and external regulator solved great.
  Mainsail, thanks for the heads up on the CD alternator I'm going to cancel Monday morning. A friend with the Catalina 34 next to mine same year 1987 mentioned he seen the 90 amp Leece Neville that may fit our boats on Amazon and he would Send me a link, have not seen the link. I want to be sure it is one that will work. Note: A few here have mentioned that a 90 amp maybe a better option to have mercy on our v-belt.
  So again thank you all.

  On a side note, I took my new stainless steel windless mounting shelf to my boat this weekend, it fit perfect, the back slope for the anchor locker was dead on. I'm sure it will take me to the end of April to finish all my projects, just in time for the season. Wait, what do I mean season, I live in Southern California, its always the season.

  OK, first goal, get the right Lecce Neville Alternator ordered and on its way. I live in the mountains of Southern California and my boats 75 miles away, so although I'm almost there every weekend my projects move forward at a snails pace.

@S/V S

Here is one L-N bulletin on the mod, although Rod's write-up is much clearer/prettier.

Different model, but basically here's what it'll look like under the gasket.  I'm wondering if using a Dremel it could be de-potted so as to provide more working space to bring the two field wires to the outside?

  Thanks so much for the help and pictures. I ordered the 105 amp unit from Catalina direct today. It's back ordered 4 or 5 weeks. I thought if I can't afford the regulator yet I could run the charging battery through my dc to dc Victron Charger and  at least 3 stage charge my house bank and limit my draw from the house bank to 30 amps maybe keeping the alternator cool enough. Any words of wisdom.