Messages

Thanks, Ken. Sorry, I had forgotten that your prior emails had mentioned this.

You were correct all along, my inlet barb is 5/8", per the factory setup. When I changed my impeller 2 months ago (on the hard), I pulled only one hose off to be able to maneuver the pump into position to remove the (stuck) impeller. I thought it was the inlet one, but it was actually the outlet. I had a vivid memory of seeing (and measuring) the 7/8" barb, but it was the outlet barb that I had seen, not the inlet.

...In 30 yrs pf pumps, I have not seen a bad Sw pump out of the gate.  By "bad", I don't mean "crap" (it is) I mean "defective." 

I believe but have no numbers to back it up, that either pump won't develop enough pressure to blow a seal.

Yes, this does appear to be an odd case. If the pump doesn't develop enough pressure to blow a seal (which makes sense, since I would expect the impeller fins would just start to bend and leak) and you haven't seen a defective pump before, then one way or another we're looking at a new first.

One other comment, which I'm sure is going to get you saying "I told you so," I was very unimpressed with the condition of the pump housing. It was in a fully unopened box with blue plastic protectors in the threads and over the flange, but the flange end had some significant dings in it. It shocked me enough that I snapped a picture. I don't think these dings would affect performance, but it still gives a very poor impression of quality. In the two pics below, you'll see the new pump with dings, and then my old pump with pristine flange section. [EDIT: These dings actually give the impression that this pump might have been (abused and) returned before, and then re-packed in a fresh box by Westerbeke. Not sure, but something must have caused those dings in the flange.]

Obviously my original intent to have in immediate drop-on replacement is not going to work out. I did get to do some sailing this weekend, but now the boat appears likely to have to go out of service while I work out this issue. It's frustrating, but I've also got a flaky depth sounder that I need to fix, so that would have been taking away from some sailing time anyway.

....I do not understand any possible connection between the riser and the rw pump.  The riser is air, until the nipple.  If you need to know, take the hose off the nipple and look inside.

I think you're over-complicating a simple defect:  your new rw pump is leaking...

No seal can withstand infinite pressure. So if there's a blockage building up in the HX or in the injection elbow, it could cause leaking through the seal.

Care to explain "Generally better?"  Really?

One drop/minute is generally better than four drops a second. Roughly speaking, it's 360x better.

I can't answer your question, but I will tell you that I am in the process of replacing all my security screws with normal Phillips head. I'm sick of using that darned tool, and with 16 year old electronics, there's nothing in there that anyone would steal. I've had some issues recently for which I really like being able to use an electric screwdriver to get in there.

If you can borrow a tool to get in there once, I'd recommend swapping out your screws.

Hi all,

As some of you may have seen on another thread, I replaced the impeller on my Sherwood pump before splash, and immediately after splash experienced severe (4 drops/second) leakage from the weep holes. I replaced it with a brand new Sherwood G908 from Westerbeke (yes, I know that's a bad idea, but I had reasons that were specific to me). The new pump is generally better, weeping only about 1 drop per minute. However, my expectation was that zero drops should be seen on a brand new pump (unless there's some break-in period that I'm not aware of). I'll call the Westerbeke distributor Tuesday to inquire about whether I have a defective pump.

While there is absolutely no reason to believe that this leakage is caused by backpressure from a blockage or other problem in my heat exchanger or exhaust system, I do need to consider this possibility (especially since I expect that the Wb distributor will try to pin the blame on something else). I see lots of stuff on the Tech Wiki about replacing the exhaust riser, but not much about diagnosing the existing system to see if I actually have a problem there. Do any of you have any tricks to diagnose this without having to dismantle my exhaust riser, etc? Please post here or provide a link to existing posts/articles on the topic. Next time I'm at the boat I'll also remove the HX end plate to inspect, though last time I did this everything looked fine and I've never lost any impeller blades or anything else since then.

Note this text from Don Moyer's website. It seems to claim broader compatibility than you are mentioning. I have no doubt that you are right, but if someone knows Don maybe you should let him know:

The inlet and outlet on this pump are 3/8″ pipe thread, and it is otherwise interchangeable with the early gear type pumps, as well as any of the later OEM flexible impeller pumps used by Universal.

Don's text is 100% correct.  MMI is a forum and store for the Atomic-4.  If you're looking at a part there, it fits onto an Atomic 4, and is not for a diesel or is a generic part for any Catalina or Pearson that has an aux engine.   Probably one of, if not THE last thing he needs is someone (like me) who is not an A-4 owner critiquing his website store.   

I went directly to the link for the Moyer pump without looking at the rest of the website, so I didn't know his website was exclusive to Atomic motors. Without that knowledge, his statement that it's interchangeable with "any of the later OEM flexible impeller pumps used by Universal" appeared to include my boat's pump. Thank you for the clarification.

It's an age-old problem of "dock jockey experts" and "buddies" not having a clue what misinformation they spew forth and sucker owners into buying this or that (which they say will solve their problem, that they themselves have never experienced or solved.) Those types love to tell owners how to spend their own money because they don't have skin in the game.

You're taking a shot at both my friend and me. Am I supposed to ignore the suggestions of everyone and only trust the "completely unified opinions" (yeah, sure) of this website? Instead, I brought his his suggestion to the best place I know to ask. I think that's what most people here would want me to do.

You said

this pump.... Looks like it addresses some of the (very few) issues with the Oberdorfer N202 pumps

I don't know of an issue with N202 pumps that needs addressing?  Specifically which issues would it solve, (say, if it did actually fit a 35B or XPB)?

From the picture I thought that he might have modified the flange to fit over the two holes on my motor, so that the clips would not be needed, and cutting the flange would be unnecessary. He also mentioned packless bearings and captive thumb screws. And his price is pretty good. But it's irrelevant if the pump is guaranteed not to fit.

I decided to order another Sherwood pump at this time. My situation is unique, because I am 1000 miles from my boat and returning Friday for a week at home (which is still 2 hours from my boat). My current job requires me to be out of town 50% of the time, which severely constrains my sailing time (and my time to work on the boat). As I explained to you, I really want a drop-in replacement so I don't lose a whole week of sailing (which will turn into 2-3 weeks with my travel requirements) fiddling with things at a remote location. That means a rebuild is not an option right now (I'll rebuild the old pump once I get it out). I truly believe that my inlet barb measured 7/8" when I was last at the boat, and is too bulky to file down and fit on the N202. I did not take a picture because I did not realize at the time that it was unusual. And maybe I am wrong, but with the boat 1000 miles away I'd have to give up a bunch of sailing time just to answer the question. So the new Sherwood pump will be there when I return home and I'll hopefully just be able to pop it in.

Frankly, I am also a little concerned about the few reports of steam in the exhaust of people who sail in warm water. The upper Chesapeake gets up to 86-90 in the summer. All those guys with M-25 motors who have upgraded to 3" HXs are certainly fine with the Ob pump's water capacity (especially if they're sailing in the chilly waters of PNW). But I find it a little ironic that a 2" HX upgrade is so critical for them to have, yet a reduced raw water throughput is accepted without question. They're probably fine with smaller motor/upgraded HX/cooler sailing waters, but I'm concerned that warm water sailors with M-35 motors might be a little close to the edge. And it's not a problem that can be solved by just running the motor at lower RPMs because that further reduces the pumping capacity. I called Depco for a second opinion, and they told me that they do not recommend the N202 for anything over 30 hp. I may still run the experiment with a Ob pump someday (it's worth a few boat bucks to potentially save my camshaft), but only when I have time to modify the M-16 myself, and only after I've taken some baseline temperature readings on my injector elbow, aqua-lift muffler, and exhaust hose from the muffler. It's clear that the motors cool fine with reduced water, but a lot of the heat goes out the exhaust manifold with the combustion gases, so it seems that's where a lack of cooling water would likely show up.

I'm not suggesting that anyone follow my practice. Each situation is different.

Now, what are you seeking or what specific issue are you trying to solve/work around, and maybe I can assist?

-k

Hi Ken, thanks for the clarification.

As you're aware we've had some private discussions about pumps. I have no immediate interest in this pump, but a longer term interest in better options than Sherwood. This pump was recommended by a friend of mine who heard that I was considering getting an Oberdorfer from you. He responded by suggesting that I consider this pump instead of the Oberdorfer. I immediately searched this website, and finding no mention of it, I posted my question.

Note this text from Don Moyer's website. It seems to claim broader compatibility than you are mentioning. I have no doubt that you are right, but if someone knows Don maybe you should let him know:

The inlet and outlet on this pump are 3/8″ pipe thread, and it is otherwise interchangeable with the early gear type pumps, as well as any of the later OEM flexible impeller pumps used by Universal.

I just learned of this pump. Looks like it addresses some of the (very few) issues with the Oberdorfer N202 pumps:

https://moyermarine.com/product/mmi-502-flange-pump-csob_00_365/

I searched all over this website for any mentions of this pump, and see nothing (aside from some replacement parts that Moyer sells for the Oberdorfer pumps). Is this pump a new offering? Does the flange look like it would fit on the B-series motors?

I'm still a newcomer to C34 land, so this is the first I've ever heard of the "notorious port list." My boat is on the hard now (ready to go back in in 9 days), and before redoing my bottom paint I noticed that the scum line was an inch or two higher on the port side. Is this port list known to affect my vintage of boat? I also noticed that the waterline shows the boat resting bow high (if boot stripe is accurate), so I've only filled the bow water tank for now (since I'll have skinny water at the sling lift and want the rudder as high out of the mud as possible during launch).

I also remember noting that my prior C250's keel was canted to one side, and always thought it was just manufacturing slop. Now I guess it's a fairly common trick that Catalina uses to offset balance issues in their design?

During the season I keep my boat at Rock Hall Landing in the main harbor. We still do a fair amount of daysailing, and it's closer to the Bay so it eliminates the 25 minute motor each way out of/into Swan Creek. It's also a little less pricey than Haven Harbour, and has a decent pool for cooling off. It also gets a nice breeze most evenings, coming right over the breakwater from the prevailing southwesterly direction. On the downside, it can get a little noisy on Saturday nights with the nearby restaurants. Usually we're anchored out somewhere on Saturdays.

We've chartered out of Haven Harbour, and it is a beautiful property, and might have more things of interest to young children if that concerns you. Like Rock Hall Landing, Haven Harbour South (formerly Sailing Emporium) is close to the noisy restaurants. It is bound to be spruced up (and prices raised) by the new owners. The major downside is that it's much more remote from the town by road. We like walking into town from the marina, which makes Rock Hall Landing, North Point (another one worth considering), or Haven Harbour better located than Haven Harbour South IMO. It's still an easy drive into town, or you can take bicycles (available from most marinas) or the town tram.

I live in Swarthmore, and have direct experience with many of the possibilities you mention.

In 10 days we'll start our third season on our C34MkII. We keep her in Rock Hall (different marina than Roc), and winter on the hard in Essington on the Delaware. It's a two-day trip between the two, but I really like having her 12 minutes from home during the winter.

Everyone is different, and your deep draft may affect your choices somewhat. The eastern shore of the Chesapeake is dominated by people from the Philly suburbs. Half the people in my marina live <20 minutes from me (total coincidence - I didn't know any of them before we moved down there). We like Rock Hall because you can go North, South, West, or East (into Chester River) depending on the wind. Also, there are literally hundreds of destinations within easy reach - we haven't even scratched the surface yet. Havre de Grace is closer, but a long motor, and directionally constrained. We haven't been into Middle River, but we've heard about marinas with more reasonable prices there. (Rock Hall is definitely pricey.) Bohemia River is pretty area and lower cost, but with your draft it's probably a no-go. Sassafras River is beautiful, but another long motor before you're sailing.

Before buying our current boat, we sailed our C250 on the Delaware River for 6 seasons. We kept her in Essington, where the water was plenty deep. I would tell people "it doesn't suck as much as people think." Our kids were younger then and we did almost exclusively daysailing, so we wanted to have the boat near home all year round. It was a great boat for the Delaware. Unless the wind was blowing north-south (rare), we would tack every 10 minutes, but the C250 had the genoa winches on either side of the companionway hatch, so my wife would just sit there with a winch at each shoulder and easily tack the jib. Or, if I was singlehanded, I'd use a wireless autopilot remote and auto-tack from the same position. From Essington, we had a few overnight destinations, including Penns Landing Marina to the north (our favorite from there), Delaware City to the south. We even took her through the canal to Chesapeake City, Bohemia, Rock Hall, Sassafras, and Baltimore on several cruises, and also down to Cohansey River. So it's not all bad, but I do think a C34 is constrained in those waters. You should keep her somewhere that you can stretch out. The downtown Philly marinas are mostly dumps with lots of shady characters around, aside from Penns Landing (but they lack most basic services, so best only for a few days visit.) Upriver, Winters Sailing Center is a very nice marina (Catalina dealer), with a surprising number of big sailboats - much more than I would expect from the narrowness of the river there and the shallowness of Dredge Harbor.

There are lots of choices, but it's hard to beat the Chesapeake for a sailboat. We use it as our vacation home, and head down almost every weekend regardless of the weather forecast. (Central air helps a lot with that, since we can just stay in the slip if it's one of those infamous sticky Chesapeake nights.)

Also, road improvements have made weekend traffic to the eastern shore much less of a problem. The new interchange from I-95 onto Delaware Route 1 (there is traffic, but it keeps moving), and they're building new a bypass past Middletown that will shave another 10-15 minutes off the trip. We make it to Rock Hall in 1:45.

Understand that the necessity to add the reinforcing is because of the Sherwood pump busting the fork on the camshaft.  The obvious other route, whether you already have or need to add a collar, is GET RID OF the damn crappy pump that's manufactured of material (i.e, IRON) that should not be used in a marine environment, and that Westerbeke is PROUD to own 100% of the rights to, and is PROUD as well to install on its marine engine products.

If you sense an attitude, I gleefully admit it.

k

I've read all the comments elsewhere and am aware of the design deficiencies. My Sherwood pump is working well, no leaks through the weep holes, no significant corrosion apparent on the housing, and the previous owner left me with three perfectly good #200175 impeller kits. I've chosen to use up the impeller kits and defer replacement of the pump as long as it continues to work well.

When I'm ready to replace the pump, I'll buy the one you're selling.

I know this is a very old thread, but the topic will never go away, especially for owners who purchase used boats of this vintage.

I have hull #1535 and could not see my motor serial number or date code due to water heater hoses being in the way. Seeing that #1515 did not have the reinforcing collar made me nervous, so I pulled off my Sherwood G908 pump while changing out the impellar today. I confirmed that it DOES have the reinforcing collar.

Later I was able to push the hoses aside and get a phone picture of the serial number (after about 12 pictures that were too out of focus). My date code is E004, so that's consistent with the tech bulletin pinning the problem on motors prior to E001.

I think Roc reported that his #1477/pre-E001 motor did have the collar, so that adds some potential confusion. For those trying to deduce whether their boats are "safe" from the serial number, it is possible that collars were added to older boats by a prior owner. (This could have even happened with my own boat.) Don't go assuming that your boat is safe because it's newer than one that reported having the collar. The only way to be sure is to check for yourself, which is easily done when doing a routine impellar change.

Time for me to circle back to this thread. After traveling for a couple weeks, I returned to the boat today and confirm that I have fixed the leak. The leak turned out to be near the front of the motor (and traveled down the bottom of the manifold), and was easily fixed by tightening the hose clamp.

This was the exact same leak I had last winter. I missed it because it took a different path than before.

Moral of the story: Don't get too creative in looking for leaks. It could actually be the same thing that happened before.

Second moral of the story: Set up a PM schedule for things like this.

I will, of course, re-check everything again. But I've gotten in the habit of running a dry paper towel along the bottom of all hoses, manifolds, HX, and drain plugs to see if the leaks originate "uphill" from the low point where it's actually dripping from. I also strategically place paper towels in various areas, and wrap them around hoses and fittings. Last winter I quickly found that the leak was coming from the front of the engine and running down the bottom of the manifold. Easily fixed by tightening a hose clamp. This year, so far, everything that I can reach has been dry except right below the aft hose connection. I think my next step will be to remove the engine compartment in the aft berth so I can get better visibility for diagnosis and access for repair.

Thanks, Ken. First I need to do some more diagnosis (and play with hose clamps), but I will use your services if I end up doing the new parts. I have all winter to get this done, and won't start until the temps rise out of the teens.

Thanks for the correction on the contents of the hoses. Your observation is consistent with my observations, since I think the coolant is coming from #16's connection to the HX. But the sketch in the parts manual made it look like #16 was connected to the raw water pump (which surprised me given my observations of coolant drips from #16). Upon looking at additional pictures, I now see that it was an optical illusion.