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...I also wrote an article pointing out that Catalina installed engines of 21, 23, 30 and 35 HP.  However, Catalina always installed the same 3 bladed prop of 15" x 9" pitch!!!!!!  Most owners with the M25XP engine re-pitched to 10"...

Hi Ron, thanks for your comments. Too bad I'm on the hard, because if in the water I'd go out and test my RPMs at full throttle, since I think that's the ultimate test for whether re-pitching is needed. I'll keep that in mind for next season...

Rather than wait for next season, I did a little research. I remembered that the maximum RPM was tested during the survey/sea trial when I bought the boat 3 years ago. (I have not gone anywhere near full throttle since, though I now realize that I should occasionally to knock off any carbon deposits.) I checked the survey report and he noted a maximum RPM of 3800. (I didn't know enough at the time to realize that it might be abnormally high)

The service manual does not say what the maximum RPM of the M35 should be, except that the horsepower is rated at 3000 RPM, and I assume most manufacturers rate their motors at the max recommended RPM. Then, after some more digging, I found a 2004 product brochure for Universal's B-series motors, that said made it clear:

Universal recommends a propeller that will allow the engine to turn 3000 RPM underway at full throttle

So it's pretty clear that my prop should be re-pitched to account for the higher power of the M35B motor, just as Ron suggested. I'll probably give Ray at Atlantis a call to discuss.

...or maybe it's time to think about a feathering/folding prop. Which brand do you guys like best? I want a design that also reverses effectively, since it's critical for dock maneuvering.

I found the Prop Scan website, but their dealer locator does not work.

I'm not sure that it doesn't work. It looks like they've lost a whole bunch of dealers, and that there are huge areas of the country with no coverage.

Once on the mediawiki platform, you register as a user

I did this, and I now have a mediawiki account that I'm logged in to.

"edit" at the top of page link

I don't have an "edit" link. I do have a "View Source" link at the top of the page. When I click it, it says:

You do not have permission to edit this page, for the following reason:

The action you have requested is limited to users in the group: Users.

Also, at the top of the page, it has a link that says "Log in", which is odd, because I'm already logged in on the mediawiki site. When I click the "Log in" link, I am taken to another page that asks me to enter login credentials, but neither my mediawiki credentials nor my C34 website credentials work.

Are you sure that we're all allowed to edit the wiki? Why am I the only one who seems to have this problem?

Could someone who has edit privileges for the wiki please create a page explaining, in detail, how a new user can set up an account and log in? Our wiki doesn't seem to allow edits unless you're on some special "User" list. And this instruction definitely does not seem to work, since it will not accept my login credentials:

Anyone may read the topics. If you wish to add content to the wiki you must log in. Use the same user name and password that you use to access the forum.

The pump came the other day. I confirmed that it is 2.25" impeller.

FWIW, the pump was OEMed by TBK (Tokyo Seiko division), and was labeled "Made in Japan". The previous pump that I removed was OEMed by Aisin. Both are major Japanese automotive parts suppliers, and both claim to be the biggest water pump manufacturers in the world (go figure). Any prior speculation that Indian/Chinese gray-market pumps are supplying to Kubota appear to be untrue.

There might be an opportunity to cut out another middle man by buying directly from TBK instead of Kubota, but it's also possible that this is a custom (captive) design specifically for Kubota.

I posted a few other installation details over at http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,8939.msg77420.html#msg77420.

FWIW, both Westerbeke and Kubota manuals say to use a thin coat of sealant over the gasket. They recommend Three Bond 1215 or similar. The 1215 was coming up over $50, so I opted for the "or similar". I chose Permatex 22071 Water Pump and Thermostat Gasket Maker, which has the needed thermal spec and is optimized for glycol resistance. This is capable of replacing the gasket entirely, but I used it as a dressing with the thinnest possible coat on both sides of the gasket.

Interestingly, I stumbled across some instructions on Aisin's website (maker of the old Universal water pump that I pulled out) that said not to use gasket sealer. Go figure.

I installed the new Kubota pump (OEMed by TBK) today (before seeing Aisin's warning). I'm waiting a day or so for the gasket dressing to cure fully before filling the air pocket with coolant.

Breaking : In a number of articles, I wrote (and confirmed by Jerry Douglas) that it is the builder of the hull that determines the diameter of the prop - so the prop does not cause "buffeting" against the hull.

I'm no engine Guru, but I can't believe that an engine that has over 70% more HP needs the same (low torque) pitched prop as the same smaller HP engine!!   

Hope that answers your question. 

A few thoughts

I fully agree, but you seemed to be suggesting that a M35B motor should result in reducing the prop diameter from 15" to 9". Either I misread it, or you have a typo.

My other unrelated comment was not addressing prop diameter. It was addressing pitch adjustment of a prop of the manufacturer's selected diameter. The procedure I always heard was to run at full throttle and compare to engine spec, then adjust pitch if out of spec. Obviously certain specialized needs could justify higher or lower pitch, but care should then be taken to ensure you're not under-revving at idle or over-revving at full throttle.

[B]

Guys : I wrote a Mainsheet tech note article explaining why you should take your prop to a shop that uses "Prop Scan".

I also wrote an article pointing out that Catalina installed engines of 21, 23, 30 and 35 HP.  However, Catalina always installed the same 3 bladed prop of 15" x 9" pitch!!!!!!  Most owners with the M25XP engine re-pitched to 10".

I re-engine to a M25XPB and a 3 bladed 11" pitch prop and was very happy. If there had been enough room I would have re-engine to a M35BC engine with a 3 bladed 9"x 12" prop!!

So you be the judge.

A few thoughts

Hi Ron, thanks for your comments. Too bad I'm on the hard, because if in the water I'd go out and test my RPMs at full throttle, since I think that's the ultimate test for whether re-pitching is needed. I'll keep that in mind for next season.

But I am a little puzzled why a M35BC engine should have only a 9" diameter prop. Did I misread something?

I just learned about a very new product that claims similar performance to PropSpeed at much lower cost:

http://www.propglide.com/

Searching this site yields no hits. I'd appreciate any comments people here might have.

I guess I need to be more clear.

$300 for a product that doesn't do the job sounds like a waste of time and money to me.

Yes, it would. But I never said that. Barnacle Barrier ($30) was OK at first, but not as good lately. This could be due to environmental factors or my improper application. PropSpeed is a different product that has gotten very good reviews from my friends.

How long do you keep the boat in the water?  Salt or fresh?  How long does it sit unused?  My experience in brackish water has been the longer the prop has not been moved, the more barnacles will collect.  I use no prop coat. Boat was in the water from June through October with no barnacles.  Maybe start the engine to spin the prop at least once a week.  Another option could be another marina.

Oh, and as far as reconditioning goes, I would suspect if your already doing hull speed, you won't see much if any performance increase.

My location is in my signature. Brackish water, salinity level varies with rainfall. In the water April-October, on the hard off-season. We've had extremes of drought and floods in the past two years which have caused salinity fluctuations. Due to work and travel I'm away for 6 days at a time, sometimes two weeks. I do spin the prop in the slip if I can't go out.

My bottom paint has been 100% effective at preventing hard growth.

My request for advice has nothing to do with trying to exceed hull speed, which I get to fine. It's only about having a maintenance-free prop that doesn't corrode or load down the engine unnecessarily due to hard growth. It's also about maybe leaving the boat in through the winter at some point in the future, which is why I'd like to do a little better than I am now. I'm open to suggestions.

I'll go in and try to edit the wiki again when I have a few more minutes.

For now, one quick question in preparation for when my new freshwater pump arrives: Is a gasket sealant recommended for the freshwater pump, and if so, what brand/type? I thought I had found a page on this site that mentioned it, but it got lost in the 100+ pages I read getting info on pump specs. Thanks!

Thanks for starting this thread, as I was going to do the same in a couple of days. I've had my boat for 2.5 years and never pulled the prop. I don't know how long PO left it on without pulling. I borrowed a puller from AutoZone's free loaner program. After 3 days of cranking, tapping, penetrating lube, heating the hub, applying ice cubes to the shaft, I finally got it off this morning. Obviously I'm now looking for suggestions about anti-seize compounds for the future.

I'm in exactly the same situation regarding reconditioning. Condition seems fine, but I'd like to have it checked out professionally just to be sure there are no signs of corrosion problems, etc. I'd love to have recommendations for good prop shops. Near Philadelphia would be nice, but I could go down to DelMarVA or Annapolis if needed.

The prop was clean when I bought the boat, and the yard put on a coat of Pettit "Prop Coat Barnacle Barrier", and I've cleaned and sanded smooth each year, then re-applied another coat. The sanding was thorough (all oxides removed, down to a very smooth gray surface), but was not done all the way to bare metal (since this stuff REALLY bonds strongly to the metal and is hard to remove). Its antifouling performance has gotten a bit worse each year, with about a hundred barnacles at the end of last season (typically near the hub and on the shaft, not as much on the blades). I'm not sure if it's just the water conditions were worse or the fact that I didn't remove it the paint all the way between re-applications.

Bottom line, I'm ready to try something else to reduce hard growth. I have friends who swear by PropSpeed, but at $300 for 200 ml it's a bit rich. I'd be interested in hearing of lower cost alternatives and/or suggestions of prop shops who could do the application. Maybe if they buy the PropSpeed (or alternate material) in bulk and do several props at a time, they might be able to do it for less than $300 including labor.

I'm open to suggestions, since this is a bit more complicated than the outboard props that I've dealt with in the past.

More phone calls, more information on possible sources and part numbers. I'll post a summary...

I wrote up my research on freshwater pumps for B-series motors. I put it in a different thread which seems more suited to the specific issues of Universal's B-series motors. I'll also put a link in the wiki:

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,9461.msg77379.html#msg77379

EDIT: Hmmm, I could have sworn that I read somewhere that we could all edit the Tech Wiki, but darn if I can figure out how.

Someone please add the above link to the Diesel Engine wiki next to "FRESHWATER COOLANT PUMP Parts # and Sources".

Also, while you are at it, I would appreciate correcting the line at the top of the page  that says "M-30, a 4-cylinder producing 28hp, became an optional engine about the same time and is standard in the Mark II." There are a number of MkII boats that have M35B standard, and it's not even mentioned on the page, which means it does not come up in a search. FYI, the tech manual says that the M35B produces 35 HP and M25XPB generates 28 HP.

In general, this text on the Diesel Engine page seems to neglect B-series motors and thus looks like it's in sore need of updating. I'm happy to help, but you guys need to provide clarity on how members can edit these pages. Right now "Help with logging in" tells me "To create an account, select "Log in" (top right of page) then "Create account", but there is no such link on the login page. So maybe some revisions to the instructions are in order. Thanks!

[A brief statement of the issue]

After looking into various options, I've ordered a genuine Kubota freshwater pump for my M35B motor. My old pump has been removed, using a procedure designed to minimize the loss of coolant. I've confirmed the impeller diameter of 2.25" on my old pump. The new pump has not arrived, so has not been installed yet.

Determining the right pump was a little more complex than described in some other threads because of the two incompatible pump designs. This required quite a bit of legwork to nail down, but the results can be helpful to others. I'll include a lot of details below in hopes of adding clarity to a topic that's been previously subject to confusion. Knowledge is power, even if it's just auxiliary. ;-)

A brief statement of the issue

Kubota and Westerbeke made a running change during the production of Westerbeke's B-series diesel motors. As a result, two different incompatible pump designs are available, depending on when the motor was manufactured. Furthermore, frequent changes in Kubota's part numbers have resulted in almost a dozen different numbers for the pumps, some of which may be interchangeable and some of which are definitely not.

Page 46 of the B-series Westerbeke parts manual for M25XPB/M35B/M40B motors provides a lot of clarity regarding the two pump models and corresponding impeller sizes:

http://c34.org/wiki/images/e/e1/201021_parts_manual_m25xpb-m35b-m40b_revision_2_final.pdf

First, it's important to note that all three of these B-series motors use the same Westerbeke part numbers for the freshwater pump system, so the part numbers (whether you ultimately choose Westerbeke, Kubota, or India/Chinese knockoffs) should be the same for M25XPB/D1005 and M35B/V1305 motors, so long as you know the date code. Someone else's advice for an M35B pump is probably valid for your M25XPB.

Genuine Westerbeke Replacement ($306 as of 2018)

Westerbeke's parts manual shows over 30 various motor parts that changed at a the same point in the B-series production run. The Westerbeke date code is critical. Date codes of ≤E412 (December 2004) use the old parts. Codes of ≥E501 (January 2005) and later use the new parts. These part changes are significant, and include cylinder block and injectors as well as the gear casing, water pump, impeller, and gasket. There's been some speculation here that Westerbeke may have changed the freshwater pump design due to the needs of the marine environment, but the extent of these other changes suggest something more comprehensive was done to Kubota's design. After reviewing Kubota's marketing literature over the years, it appears to me that Kubota likely made the design changes to address updated emissions requirements. This is (somewhat informed) speculation on my part, so take it with a grain of salt.

The genuine Westerbeke pump for all B-series motors produced though December 2004 (date code ≤E412) is #200820. The gasket also changed on that date, which strongly suggests that the newer pump model will not fit properly on the older motors. This older pump #200820 has a 2.25" impeller.

The newer pump (#201107) used on motors after January 2005 (date code ≥E501) has a 2.75" impeller (70 mm), which would seem to match up with the specs for many of the Asian gray market pumps, in the few cases where they actually disclose the impeller diameter (so buyer beware!).

I called a regional Westerbeke rep, and he verified the proper part numbers (and impeller sizes) corresponding to these date codes. The Westerbeke pump is over $300. My experience with a couple Westerbeke reps is that they generally quote the same prices, so not much money can be saved by calling different ones. Many are also bound to a particular geographical area anyway.

If you are in a remote area and would be burdened by long delays and high shipping charges for making a return of the wrong pump, I recommend paying Westerbeke's premium and buying the pump that corresponds to your date code. There is opportunity to save money by going with a Kubota or gray-market pump, but sorting out all the correct part numbers will make your head spin, and the risk of getting the wrong part may be too great if you're in a remote location. Keep this in mind as you read about the other options.

Genuine Kubota Replacement ($145-190 as of 2018)

Significant money can be saved by purchasing a genuine Kubota freshwater pump, and the dealer prices can vary widely. Ideally you should have the Kubota block serial number when you call, but it can be hard to access:

https://www.dieselpartsdirect.com/where-to-find-my-kubota-engine-serial-number

On my motor Kubota's serial number is on the port side, tucked behind a few coolant hoses which are tightly secured. I stuck my phone camera back there but couldn't get a picture of the whole number, and I was unwilling to disassemble everything to get a picture. My lack of a Kubota serial number made things more difficult, but not impossible.

There are (at least) two different types of Kubota dealers - tractor dealers and engine distributors - and they have access to different types of information that can be more or less helpful. The tractor dealers will generally want the model and serial number of your tractor, which can be limiting for obvious reasons. Even if you already know the Kubota part number, they may be reluctant to sell to you. I spoke to 3 tractor dealers in PA and DE (including Messick's, whom Ken recommended) and got some useful information but not enough to inspire my confidence to buy. Before buying, I wanted them to verify the impeller diameter from their documents or by measuring it themselves. They didn't have access to documentation with impeller information, and couldn't measure it because they either didn't have it in stock or had it "at a different location" (in the case of Messick's). They also didn't seem to have a breakdown showing the impeller part number and/or its diameter. However, one helpful tractor dealer (Burke Equipment in DE) did have a listing that gave the Kubota serial number break between "old" and "new" water pumps. The old pump (currently stocked as #16521-73032, though it seems to change every year or so) is for Kubota motor S/N ≤1U7903, while the new pump (#16521-73034, but recently replaced by 16251-73037) is for Kubota motor S/N ≥1W0001. Presumably "old" pumps have 2.25" impeller, and "new" pumps have 2.75" impeller, though the Burke was unable to confirm this because they don't have that level of detail in their information.

The Kubota date codes are worth some discussion. Kubota's dating guide (https://global.engine.kubota.co.jp/en/support/serialnumber/index.html) indicates that the changeover from "old" to "new" water pumps occurred on November 2001, which is more than 3 years earlier than Westerbeke's changeover. Is it possible that Westerbeke actually kept over 3 years worth of old motor inventory in their warehouses? Maybe they did a large "last time buy" to give them (and their biggest customers) time to validate the revised motor design? I don't know - it is what it is.

Price quotes for the genuine Kubota pump from the tractor dealers ranged from $142 to $169, not including the gasket, and they had no knowledge of whether their pumps included the return pipe (which some here have complained was missing from their replacement pumps).

Messick's suggested that due to the nature of my questions it would be better to talk to a Kubota engine distributor, and they gave me contact information for Engine Distributors Inc in Blackwood, NJ (http://www.edi-dist.com/). The parts guy there was very helpful and persistent at looking things up. I could hear him leafing through a bunch of parts manuals for different serial numbers (since I did not have my own serial number). He told me that he could not find any reference to #16251-73032 that I was requesting (I guess it's because he was using printed manuals that may have been over a year old). But based on my info that my engine is the older version with 2.25" impeller, he pulled up 16241-73034 (which he had in stock) and 16241-73030 (previous number for the same thing). I recognized both numbers from other research I had done online. He said it definitely had a 2.25" impeller (based on the impeller number in the parts breakdown), and that the return pipe is included because it's pressed in (I think it's threaded in, but as long as it's included I don't care). Based on his helpfulness and patience I had decided to buy from him right away no matter what the price. I was relieved when he quoted $123.59 for his in-stock 16241-73034 pump, the best price I had seen for this anywhere. Gasket and shipping brought the total up to $144.66 all-in cost.

Note that Kubota seems to change part number frequently, resulting in a terribly confusing proliferation of part numbers. Here is my best attempt to summarize the various numbers:

"Old" pumps with 2.25" impeller: 16241-73030, 16241-73032, 16241-73033, 16241-73034, 16241-73037, 16251-73030, 16251-73032 (current model, but seems to change frequently).

"New" pumps with 2.75" impeller: 16251-73034, 16251-73037 (very recent change not shown on most dealers' lists)

WARNING: This is my best attempt based on information available to me. Do not rely on my listing alone - always ask to verify impeller diameter before ordering, and post corrections and updates to my list on this thread.

Gray Market Knockoffs ($46-99)

The low-end option for sourcing these pumps are the Indian and Chinese suppliers found on ebay and Amazon for prices as low as $46. I suggest you be very careful to make sure you get the right impeller size. Many of the listings that I saw did not list impeller size, or specified it as 70 mm with no mention of a 57mm/2.25" version that the vast majority of us need for boats made before 2005. I am also concerned that some of these Asian pumps seem to cross-reference multiple Kubota part numbers that correspond to both the "old" pumps and the "new" pumps. Which one is it? It can't be both! One ebay seller even listed a 16251-73032 knockoff which should have a 57 mm impeller, but the photo showed a 70" tape measure across the impeller. Wrong picture? Wrong part number? There's no way to know without asking - buyer beware!

Kumar Brothers, which seems very popular and slightly more expensive than some others, doesn't give diameters in their listing, but at least their listings seem to be clear about which Kubota part number they correspond to. I called Kumar on the phone and the guy was very eager to assist and provide information. He said he didn't know the impeller diameters, but that the person who does know would be in the next day and call me back. They left a phone message the next day that they had the 2.25" model, but by that point I had already ordered the genuine Kubota pump (which I suspect Kubota may outsource to one of these same manufacturers). Kumar's price is $78-99 (including gasket, return pipe, and free shipping), depending on where you find it.

If I had not gotten so much help from EDI, I would have given Kumar Brothers a try.

The pump that I purchased has not arrived yet. Once it comes in I will verify that it includes the return pipe and other claimed specs, and post a correction if needed. I'll also post my pump removal (and eventually, install) procedure on another thread.

More phone calls, more information on possible sources and part numbers. I'll post a summary. However, my pump is now leaking quite a bit faster, and I need to pull it ASAP so I can verify impeller size and order the replacement.

Can I get a quick recommendation on how to draw down the coolant below the pump level? Do I pull the cap and pump it out the manifold? Pull the large hose from the pump and quickly position a cup to catch the coolant that comes out? Open the petcock on the HX and drain it there? I'm sure that someone who has done this has some suggestions of how best to do this.

For now, I'm only interested in draining enough to get the level below the pump. (I'll do a full flush later.) Any idea about how much coolant I need to remove to get it to that level?

Hi all, I'm making phone calls and getting lots of information. I'll post more details on my findings later, but before I can move much further I need to find the Kubota serial number on my V1305 motor. Can you give me some quick hints of where I might find it? (Haven't found this info in the Wiki.)

EDIT: I've called a local NAPA guy and he does not have a water pump corresponding to the Kubota numbers that I have (probably because Kubota changes their numbers so often.) He also said that they don't sell genuine Kubota, only NAPA-manufactured replacements. If Mike Brown could post his NAPA dealer location I'd like to give him a try. As for prices, genuine Westerbeke is over $300, and genuine Kubota is coming in around $170. I'm trying to find a brick-and-mortar that has it in stock so I can measure the impeller diameter, but so far nobody has it in stock.

As for impeller diameter, the Wb part manual makes it pretty clear that B-series motors made before 2005 have a 57 mm impeller, while after 2005 it's 70 mm. All the Kumar stuff (and similar from China) seems to reference 70 mm impeller, which could be a problem. I'll post more details on this later, as it does help to clarify the situation.