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Messages - KWKloeber

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Main Message Board / Re: M25xp - Grey smoke, unburnt fuel in exhaust
« on: November 03, 2014, 08:36:23 PM »
<<run well with the exhaust blocked.>>


I meant to say run at all with the exhaust blocked!!!


Main Message Board / Re: M25xp - Grey smoke, unburnt fuel in exhaust
« on: November 03, 2014, 07:44:10 PM »
Bingo.   Just pulled hump hose and exhaust riser is blocked right in front of the place where raw water injects. 

Time to pull the 6 year old riser and either clean or get a new one.

Thanks again for everyone's help.


Bingo.   Just pulled hump hose and exhaust riser is blocked right in front of the place where raw water injects. 

Time to pull the 6 year old riser and either clean or get a new one.

Thanks again for everyone's help.


Ahhh ha.  Cool (soon)!
So plenty of water flow, as you said.  I'm surprised that the engine would run well with the exhaust blocked.

if the riser is bad (6 years??) you might want to consider the Westerbeke water cooled-riser that I'm doing for two C30 owners.  It's a "project" but worth it in the end.



Main Message Board / Re: GFI Tripping
« on: November 03, 2014, 05:10:59 PM »
The GFI IS the shore power.  It trips when I plug into the boat.

Ohhhh Ok, I thought one of the GFis on the boat were tripping.
So it this the GFI breaker on the shore power circuit, or a separate GFI that you have plugged into the receptacle?
I'm confused here.  Fill in the missing pieces.


Main Message Board / Re: Butyl for marelon/plastics
« on: November 03, 2014, 02:16:19 PM »
I do have Mainesail's butyl tape.  Bought two rolls.   I'm just thinking for marelon, maybe I should use Life caulk or Life seal sealants instead?

Share your reasoning?


Main Message Board / Re: M25XP Overheating at wits end
« on: November 03, 2014, 11:29:34 AM »
Kevin- Great advice from Ken. If there is any uncertainty about the thermostat- remove it from the system. That will guarantee flow through the housing if the pump is working (you can replace it later with a new unit if that was the problem). This may or may not help, but simplifying the system when diagnosing a problem can be useful for ruling out components. You can do the same with the water heater- simply replace the connections at the engine with a short section of hose, if the problem goes away, the trouble is in that loop. How much coolant did you lose? Where did it end up (the bilge I presume)?   

Great idea to eliminate the Tshat completely!

Let me clarify about the WH though.  That loop doesn't affect the engine cooling much, especially if the water is already hot.   
That loop allows coolant to circulate thru the block (to prevent hot spots,) as well as the holes in the Tstat flange (that lets coolant circulate thru the exhaust manifold) while the Tstat is closed.  The WH hoses take the place of the water-pump to thermostat-bypass hose (indicated on the schematic) that are present on the Kubota tractors and the M25s.  That hose was eliminated with the C34/XPs.  It's just an easy way to check for coolant flow produced bu the pump.  After the Tstat opens, the WH loop could be pinched off and it won't affect engine temp.  Before the Tstat opens, of course, pinching it will could create disastrous hot spots in the engine block.

I presume she's truly overheating due to the 'steam' and coolant loss.  But JIC, I uploaded the troubleshooting steps for the sender/gauge to the TechWiki on this page:

Ken K

Ken K

Main Message Board / Re: M25xp - Grey smoke, unburnt fuel in exhaust
« on: November 02, 2014, 10:16:28 PM »
Thanks Ron and Ken.  That is on the next steps list.  Did some more symptom checking though today. 

Boat idles to 3100 fine.  Reverse at dock 2400 max and fuel in exhaust as before.  Removed k&n airfilter - no impact to symptoms.  Screwdriver to ear on the 3 injectors and they all sound the same.  Noticed air filter was black with what appears to be oil or fuel.  Was red not too long ago.  Now thinking exhaust may be restricted causing too much back pressure as another potential cause?  Elbow is only 6 years old - muffler and exhaust hose original.  But cooling water seems to come out the back fine.  Or does fuel in an air filter also arise with any cause of unburnt fuel including injectors?  Maybe I am grasping at straws. 


Where does your crankcase breather hose run to?   To the air intake -- is that the source of gunky KN?
Is the oil ok, level normal - ie, no fuel diluting it (leaking injector pump pushing fuel to the crankcase)?


Main Message Board / Re: M25XP Overheating at wits end
« on: November 02, 2014, 08:47:17 PM »
I have run the engine up to 2500 RPM and it will quickly reach +200F before shutting down.
I have run the engine to get it hot enough for the thermostat to open up and allow the coolant pump to circulate coolant.  However, I never see what appears to be a flow of coolant in the manifold when the pump should be circulating coolant. 

And you said that you pulled and verified that the Tstat is opening at ~160F?

in my experience, when I rev the engine, the full coolant will draw down in the exhaust manifold, and well up (and may overflow) when the rpm drops.  I don't know that I have actually seen a 'flow" per se.

To verify that the coolant pump is ok, you could check for flow in the:

    Water heater lines (should be flow with Tstat closed or open.)
    Return from the Hx to the coolant pump (Tstat open only.)
    Hose from the Tstat housing to the exhaust manifold inlet elbow (T stat open only.)

I attached the flow schematic, if that helps.



Main Message Board / Re: GFI Tripping
« on: November 02, 2014, 06:49:35 PM »
Buy one of those tester plugs that tells you if all the wiring is in the proper sequence.  I think they are only around $5 or so and you can get them in the electrical section of any hardware store.

Could be a false positive.
They only tell you if you have reversed polarity - which won't necessarily trip a GFI (unless you have a reversed neutral/ground.)


Main Message Board / Re: Butyl for marelon/plastics
« on: November 02, 2014, 06:45:11 PM »
Plumbers Putty would be last thing I would consider.  If you have Maine Sail's butyl tape, just use it.

I don't know, Stu.  There;s plenty of things I could rate below that!  Sillycone, bubble gum, liquid nails, 5200, 4200, 4000.......  :rolling


Main Message Board / Re: Butyl for marelon/plastics
« on: November 02, 2014, 06:42:05 PM »
Be careful with the plumbers putty as some are not compatible with plastic.


The cockpit drains (at least on my C30) were not Marelon, but plain old PVC (Catalina's propensity for typically using Home Depot rather than marine products whenever practical.) 

Marleon is pretty stout and resistant to most everything, and PVC shouldn't be an issue with putty, but why consider it when you have butyl.  I would also consider butyl caulk over putty.



Main Message Board / Re: M25xp - Grey smoke, unburnt fuel in exhaust
« on: November 02, 2014, 06:33:58 PM »

I'm a big proponent of troubleshooting to pinpoint (or at least potential eliminate) causes before starting to arbitrarily pull components or replace parts.   That can be a disaster because you may never know what the real cause was, not mention the unnecessary hit on the pocketbook. 
And then you may get a false sense of security (unless it happens again because you missed the root cause.)

Not exactly Ockham's Razor, but.... - Take the easiest route first.  It takes 10 minutes (including getting two wrenches out of and returning it to the tool bag) to test if you have a bad cylinder/injector!  And then go deeper from there if necessary.

Ken K

Main Message Board / Re: GFI Tripping
« on: November 02, 2014, 06:07:15 PM »
The GFI trips when I plug into the 120v outlet.  It is not a regular shore power outlet but just a standard exterior outlet.
It takes a regular extension cord and not the heavy duty 30amp cord that you normally use when at a dock.  That's why
the adapter to go from the regular 120v female plug at the end of the extension cord to the 30amp male recepticle on
the boat.


From what you describe then, and that you have verified that the GFi is okay -- I would suspect there's an issue in the shore power.
Does whatever circuit the receptacle in on, have a GFI breaker?

Ken K

Main Message Board / Re: M25XP Overheating at wits end
« on: November 02, 2014, 06:00:14 PM »

You said you had cleaned the Hx.  Was it pressure tested (for a leak between the sea water and coolant sides)?

On the 1st overheat, were you low on coolant?  On subsequent overheats? 

Once you refill/burp the system, do you steadily run lower and lower on coolant?  If so that points to a hole in the Hx (or another coolant leak.)

If there's a pinhole leak in the Hx, coolant will be pushed to the sea water side and out the exhaust -- you may or may not see steam and have the sweet smell of engine coolant.  You can test the Hx by pinching off and disconnecting the coolant hoses, putting (low) water or air pressure to the seawater inlet and plugging off the the sea water outlet.  i water exits the coolant connections yo have a leak.

If you loosen the pressure cap, that will help to lessen the coolant loss - no pressure builds up in the engine, so coolant doesn't get pushed thru the pinhole to the seawater side of the Hx. 

You can also get a test pump that fits in place of the pressure cap to pressure test the coolant system.

With the year and in salt, I would suspect the Hx has a pinhole, regardless of the hours.  it wouldn't be unusual -- though there could be other causes.  My Hx developed a leak (100% fresh water C30) at year ~20. OEM was probably a standard and not a Copper-Nickle Hx.

Do you have a coolant overflow/reservoir tank or does the overflow go to the bilge?  Does that tank empty as the engine cools down (coolant gets sucked back past the pressure cap)?  If not, then it points to the vacuum being relieved at another place (Hx or other leak.)

Do you have a water heater?  A leak in the coolant coil could also loose coolant to the potable water tank, but it's rare because the potable water side is typically at a higher pressure than the coolant side (~13-15 psi.)

The coolant pump impeller could go bad - loosen the belt and check for play or noise (bad bearing) turning the pulley/shaft.  I can get you the Kubota pump p/n number if that's the problem.  More likely it's an obstruction in the Hx (impeller blades), an air lock, etc -- some of which you have already checked.

A bad exhaust manifold flange gasket can also be the problem (allows coolant to leak from the exhaust manifold into the exhaust riser/muffler, and out the exhaust.)

Let me know what you find out about the Hx, or a pressure test of the system, which is the easiest next step.

Ken K

Main Message Board / Re: GFI Tripping
« on: November 02, 2014, 01:31:38 PM »
Boat is on the hard in the marina.  I wanted to plug into a regular 115V outlet.  I have a standard 15amp to 30amp adapter to fit the
boats ac "plug-in".  When I plug it in, and with all new cords in excellent condition the GFI trips.  Don't know why.  Anyone out there
that may shed some light on what's going on?  The boat's ac circuitry is in perfect condition and we used it all summer with no problems
when plugged in at the dock slips.
Thanks in advance, Larry

GFI trips when you plug in the 30-amp to 15-amp adapter, or when you plug into the shore power outlet?


Main Message Board / Re: Primary Fuel Filter and Fuel Pump
« on: November 02, 2014, 11:02:26 AM »
My 1986 #212 has the original Dahl-60 primary fuel filter and fuel pump (Facet-with a small paper filter element as opposed to the red plastic screen type). I keep reading how most boats today use Racor primary filters. Any reason to replace the old Dahl-60 which seems to work OK with a Racor? If so, what Racor filter works best? Also my fuel pump is first in line from the tank. Been that way for 28 years. Thanks for your thoughts and comments.

I found the Dahl a PITA to service and so moved to a spin-on Racor 120 body (rated 30 GalPerHr) with a R12S (4-micron) filter.  No muss, no fuss.  But, there's nothing wrong with a Dahl if it works for you!

Recommend you definitely replumb the fuel line so that the primary filter is first off the tank, and the Facet "sucks thru" it.  The reason is that the Facet can emulsify the water into the fuel, and so it's more difficult for the primary filter to separate the fuel/water.

Would the screen-type filter fit your Facet?  It's NAPA p/n 610-1086.

Ken K

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