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Messages - Sailing Amok

#1
Thanks guys. Ron, that makes sense, I  guess there's really no need to run the engine longer than a minute or so. The injectors are either going to leak, or they're not eh? I've only worked on injectors once before, and instinctively ran the engine for a good 10min or so after to make sure all was well, but realistically, nothing changed over those 10min. I've removed the impeller for the winter, not to mention we're still below freezing here for another month or so, therefore using the bucket and water option isn't realistic. I'd have to winterize again after. But doing the injectors this weekend, running for a minute or so, and then running for longer seems like a reasonable option. I can't imagine 30 second or a minute of running without water would be enough to damage the muffler. Or could it?
Kevin, the three bucket two hose idea is great, definitely an option once the freezing risk has passed. Often our club doesn't put the water on until a week or two before launch, which is frustrating. The three bucket idea could be a great option come late April.
#2
Hey folks, I've got a bit of work to do on the injectors, and it'll still be 1.5 months before we have access to running water at the club. I'm wondering about pulling the impeller and running the engine for a few minutes with no raw water. I suspect the engine itself will be fine, given that there is still coolant in the fresh water side, not to mention it's -10c here. My concern is melting the aqua lift muffler. Any thought or experience with this? I understand it's frp? How big a risk is say 5min of running with no water cooling the exhaust, on a cold early spring day? I'd like to get the work done now, rather than rushing right before launch.
#3
Main Message Board / Re: M35B Hisssss
August 03, 2023, 08:48:12 PM
Quote from: KWKloeber on July 26, 2023, 11:09:16 AM
Aaron

A thought since it's not constant.
I'm 99% against playing Whack A Mole replacing parts but in this case the 1% exception might be to replace the oil filter assembly pressure relief valve to see if affects the noise.  That's an easy low-$ try and a faulty one might show up in before/after oil pressure checks.
My game of Whack A Mole seems to have paid off. Installed the new relief valve, and the hissing seems to have stopped! Fingers crossed it does not return, and that the valve really was the issue. The old spring was definitely a fair bit softer than the new spring. Also the ends of the spring were pretty worn looking. We also cut apart the oil filter, and there no signs of metal flakes in it, so I'm feeling pretty good about the state of internal bearings.

Unfortunately, now that the engine isn't hissing, it's become very evident that two of my injectors are super noisy. They do have a fair bit of diesel wetness around them as well, which I've been aware of for a couple seasons. I'm thinking the injectors are likely the cause of our engine bogging, and poor fuel consumption this season. One of them especially is hammering away compared to the others. So I ordered new injectors from Kubota and attempted to install them today. I hit a roadblock though. I can't for the life of me get the old "heat shields" out. I've tried mechanics pics, PB Blaster, gentle tapping with a hammer and drift. Nothing is budging them. All four are stuck. I didn't find any tips in the tech notes, or the forum, and it seems that the M25 doesn't have this part? The service manual suggests jamming a Philips screwdriver in to try to pull them out, but I'm hesitant to do anything that could create metal debris.
#4
Main Message Board / Re: M35B Hisssss
July 28, 2023, 11:58:23 AM
I've noticed that the number of gauges (yes, it's the Canadian spelling) on a vessel corelates to the level of risk associated with operating said vessel. Cars have fewer than planes, which have fewer than space shuttles. Given that we operate Coral Wave on the worlds second largest lake, surrounded by wilderness, are often the only boat in an anchorage, and operate frequently outside of VHF range, the more gauges the better!
#5
Main Message Board / Re: M35B Hisssss
July 27, 2023, 10:43:55 AM
I agree completely about the too little too late trouble lights. One of the first things I noticed when we started with Coral Wave was the lack of an oil pressure gauge at the helm. Not sure what Catalina's reasoning is for setting things up that way. I'd much rather have the fuel gauge at the nav station, and an oil gauge in its place if space was at that much of a premium. Seems like fuel gauges in boats are unreliable at best, and oil pressure is a more pressing concern. The reason I was thinking of adding a manual gauge in the engine room, since I was going to be putting one on temporarily for a diagnostic reading anyway, was that I have a series of hourly engine checks I perform during extended motoring. I take IR temp in a few places, check for leaks, check the bilge, and record/reset the barometer while I'm below deck. It would be handy to have an oil pressure gauge down there while I'm at it. Also, when there is any troubleshooting going on, I'm in the engine room and Kristina is at the helm.
#6
Main Message Board / Re: M35B Hisssss
July 27, 2023, 04:24:15 AM
Quote from: KWKloeber on July 26, 2023, 11:20:37 PM
I wouldn't want to run a remote gauge and have engine vibration transmitted to the copper tubing/fittings. What's the benefit over a pressure sender?  I've done a few panels that i added a pressure gauge to but always ran a wire.
Yeah, just the having to run a wire. As someone who's still learning, I tend to think the less I mess with the electrical on the boat, the better. Also, don't manual pressure gauges tend to be more responsive, and therefore better for troubleshooting? I would just be mounting the gauge in the engine room, not running it to the helm. So it would just be used for engine checks and diagnostics.
#7
Main Message Board / Re: M35B Hisssss
July 26, 2023, 12:55:42 PM
Thanks again Ken, my thoughts exactly on the pressure relief valve. I was thinking I'd start right off the bat by replacing that, and also perhaps the oil pressure switch at the same time. I believe both are cheap parts. And I'm wondering if the Rice Crispies sound and engine bogging could be related to a switch which has been overworked by a faulty relief valve cycling on and off too quickly to light the light, or cut the engine, but just enough to cause the bogging the one time. I believe the relief valve should be a standard Kubota part, though, it looks like it's actually a series of 3 parts on the Kubota parts blowup (spring 1624136950, seat, valve 1624136930, ball 0771500201). I see from previous forum posts that there does not appear to be Kubota or any other equivalent for the switch, so I will just order one from the Canadian Westerbeke supplier. I think they are pretty cheap.
For the oil pressure check, I was contemplating installing a gauge permanently in the engine "room", and it looks like there may be an unused port, according to the  service manual. However the manual only discuses installing an oil pressure sender in that port. Would there be any reason I couldn't install a manual gauge rather than an electronic one?
#8
Main Message Board / Re: M35B Hisssss
July 26, 2023, 05:29:04 AM
Quote from: KWKloeber on July 25, 2023, 09:33:20 PM
Where you are indicating I'd first suspect either an idler gear or oil pump noise.  I don't know what would HISS, but I suppose that is in the ear of the beholder.  I couldn't hear the noise that you describe.

Thanks Ken. Should I be relieved by that, or more stressed out? Would the cyclical on/off intermittent nature of the sound ( which hasn't really come across in the video) be more indicative of the oil pump? It's not cyclical in any sort of predictable time pattern, but does sound like something pressurizing, or relieving pressure. I wonder if Kristina has any devices at the hospital that will let me record from a stethoscope. I'll look into it and see if we can borrow something, for the interest of the forum.
#9
Main Message Board / Re: M35B Hisssss
July 25, 2023, 08:22:58 PM
Well, made it down to the boat and did some troubleshooting.
Removed the raw water pump, and installed the camshaft sleeve as per the Service bulletin. It hadn't been done, despite the PO having the service bulletin in his files. The pump itself feels fine. Put things back together and did some listening with the mechanics stethoscope. The Rice Crispies sound did not present itself, but the good old hiss did. It definitely was most prominent in the points I've marked in red in this photo. I guess this is starting to look like a crankshaft bearing failure? I cant find any info on failed crankshafts on this engine, on this forum or even Google. Seems strange that such a rare thing would happen on a well maintained engine with minimal hours. But it would correlate to the alternator failure I suppose. I haven't yet determined if the bearing is serviceable without removal of the engine from the boat or a full tear down. Could this be anything else?
#10
Main Message Board / Re: M35B Hisssss
July 20, 2023, 06:20:04 PM
Thanks Ken, it's the pages like that and the 101s on this site save a lot of hunting through threads! I'd read on one website that the Facet Posi-Flo pumps are an update to the Cube pumps. Apparently they have a check valve which allows a higher lift height. I don't imagine that's an issue given that our tanks are above the pump. But we do have a longer line than would be on a car. In your link you mention that the Posi-Flo can be used in place of the round pumps, but don't mention using them in place of the cubes. Does this have something to do with the b series wiring/oil pressure safety?
#11
Main Message Board / Re: M35B Hisssss
July 20, 2023, 02:58:19 PM
Quote from: Ron Hill on July 20, 2023, 02:38:06 PM
The raw water pump was already eliminated because the temp gage is staying at 160 degrees !!!  That also eliminated Ken's dissertation on the water pump's freezing up and breaking the lug connection on the engine (which is VERY important!!).
Oh, I see what you mean. However, our lake temp has yet to rise above 6c, so it wouldn't take much flow at all to keep the engine temp down. I'm going to pull the water pump off anyway, to check for that service bulletin collar. It was a cheap part so I preemptively ordered one from Westerbeke and have it here ready to go. They had no record of any contact with the PO, so it may never have been done.

Will look into all of Ken's suggestions as well, and listen around with the stethoscope.

I've become suspicious of the fuel lift pump. It occurred to me that I had some diesel leaking around it last winter, which I attributed to expansion/contraction of hose clamps and barbs, but perhaps the pump itself is leaking. I could imagine that causing an intermittent hissing, as it fights to maintain pressure. I think it could also cause the bogging of the engine under increased load as we turned up into the wind to raise the sails. Our tank was half full. We have an aftermarket lift pump that the PO had installed at some point after the original failed. Ours has never clicked, it produces more of a buzz. It's always provided sufficient pressure to prime the Racor and bleed the system though.
#12
Main Message Board / Re: M35B Hisssss
July 20, 2023, 08:31:46 AM
Quote from: KWKloeber on July 12, 2023, 10:27:34 AM
She has a "Stop Button"?

Why didn't you or the dock buddy use the methods told about to locate EXACTLY where the (pump?) noise and/or Rice Crispies were coming from?
Why wasn't the (pump?) noise isolated (and taken care of) before going out for four days?
Why hasn't the multitude of manuals been downloaded and throughly read that:
     1) shows every wire and electrical connection, and overcurrent device (ie, breaker, not fuse) on the 35B.
     2) what stops the 35B - it's not a tractor.
Ken, no, she does not have a "stop button", "hit the kill switch" was a colloquialism. Coral Wave has the stock stop lever, which isn't really a lever I suppose, it's a pull knob.

The noise has been present for the past two seasons (the hissing, not the Rice Krispies, that was brand new at the dock), and the engine has always run great until the alternator failure last month. So, we figured it was reasonable to go out for a weekend of sailing, and to continue the troubleshooting during the week. Honestly, I don't regret the decision at all. We had a great weekend, and the difficult weather on the day of the engine problem gave us a chance to test our selves and our procedures in a somewhat stressful situation, relatively close to home.
1-Every manual is on my phone an iPad, as well as in a binder on Coral Wave, and has been since purchase. The previous owner, like most folks on this forum has made electrical changes and upgrades, which are not in the manual, but SHOULD be in a owner-made wiring diagram. I've completed bits and pieces of said diagram, but there's still a lot to be mapped. I think the guy who suggested an arcing fuse was thinking an MRBF type fuse, or maybe something installed somewhere to protect a wire. I haven't located any around the engine, and the Rice Krispies noise was definitely not coming from the battery bank area.
2- I think he meant a fuel shutoff solenoid, which I'm fairly certain we don't have on our engines. It's just a lever that cuts fuel to the injector pump if I understand correctly.

Quote from: Ron Hill on July 12, 2023, 02:12:39 PM
Aaron : You definitely need to get that stethoscope and isolate where all that noise is coming from !! 
Your removal of the belt (and the noise continues) like you have said eliminates the internal coolant pump, raw water pump and the alternator. Also start sniffing around and find what is burning & where???

Magnetize your oil dipstick so when you run the engine next time the dipstick will act like a "chip detector".  When you pull it out you can examine it for metallic "chips"

A few thoughts 

Thanks Ron, a stethoscope has been purchased, now I just need a day and a friend to help troubleshoot. I'm a bit confused as to why you say the raw water pump can be eliminated as a source of the problem. It doesn't run off the belt. Am I missing something?

Good idea on magnetising the dipstick. I really really hope I don't find any chips.
#13
Quote from: pbyrne on July 05, 2023, 07:17:04 AM
My lovely wife and I were out in the Kingston area and anchored overnight in one of the recommended bays for first timers like us.

Kerr Bay by chance? We spent our first season with Coral Wave living aboard in the Kingston area. The weeds in that region are horrendous. One trick we heard from a few boaters in the area is to have a bread knife attached to a boat hook. You use it to saw off the weed balls as you haul the anchor up. Now on frigid Lake Superior weeds are never an issue. We do occasionally haul up entire trees though  :shock:
#14
Main Message Board / Re: M35B Hisssss
July 12, 2023, 08:15:03 AM
Well, we had a bit of an adventure this weekend. Four days out on the lake, with probably a total of about four or five hours of motoring. The engine appeared to be behaving itself, and making less odd noise than it had in a while.
Leaving the anchorage to return home on Monday, we turned into the wind to get the main up, and suddenly the engine started making a snap crackle pop sound, like Rice Krispies in milk. Kristina throttled down, to see if that changed anything, and the crackling and popping remained though its speed changed with the engine's. She Throttled back up, and the crackiling and popping sped up as well, then the engine started to bog as if dying, or seizing or something, so she hit the kill switch.
We sailed along slowly at 3 knots, calculating our 10 hour return trip home. Then the wind shut down. Completely. We bobbed around in the confused seas (from last night's thunder storm) for two hours, very slowly drifting further into Lake Superior. At least we were headed away from the shoals! After a couple hours, the first boat to be in our area came towards us to give us a tow into some wind, but they didn't need to. The wind arrived with them, and we were off slowly in a pleasant 8 knots of breeze. Then 15 knots... 20...25... After a couple hours we blasted through the gap in the break wall of Thunder Bay Harbour with nothing out but a sliver of headsail. No way we could be towed into our slip in this, so we anchored under sail, just outside the marina and waited for the wind to die. We were very thankful for our recent upgrade to a Rocna 20. There were no second chances on that anchoring job, as the only reasonable anchoring depths had us rather close to a lee shore. Anyway, a couple hours later the wind shut down again and we got towed into our slip.
At the dock we fired up the engine so a friend could give us some ideas. He was stumped, not a sound he'd heard before, but was leaning towards something like the injection pump, he didn't think it sounded like a bearing. We removed the belt, and the sound remained, so not the fresh water pump, which incidentally is still free spinning, as is the new alternator. Running the engine with the belt off for maybe a minute, there was suddenly a burning smell of some sort, almost electrical, or maybe plastic, so we shut the engine down again. Anyway, we're completely stumped, and the local marine diesel mechanic is backed up for the rest of the summer... I guess my next step is to take off the Sherwood and see how it feels, but this doesn't seem like water pump issues to me. Also, seems very unlikely that the alternator failure a couple weeks ago is just a coincidence. Must be something related to that, no? Some connected system? Someone suggested that the Rice Krispies could be a fuse arcing somewhere, another sailor suggested the kill switch, which is apparently some sort of energised magnet in an oil bath, which gets very hot. At least that is how it works on the tractor engines he's familiar with.
#15
Main Message Board / Re: M35B Hisssss
July 06, 2023, 01:46:57 PM
I sent an email to Gates, asking what their calculator is accounting for. We'll see if I get a response from them.
Quote from: KWKloeber on July 05, 2023, 09:13:27 PM
As you may know, Westerbekle has finally wised up and retired that G908 pump and replaced it with a proper "marine" BRONZE pump.
Ken, in my reading through the forum, I see that you were at one time selling modified Oberdorfer pumps? Is that something you are still doing? I think I may make the swap, even if just to reduce the pain of impeller changes. The Sherwood is 25 years old with 1360 hours on it, so it's probably not a bad idea. Maybe I'll get lucky and the hiss will go away with that change. Going to try the dowel to the ear method this weekend, to see if I can pinpoint the source regardless.