Messages

Hahaha!

Thanks Ken.

From my simplistic vantage the coolant reservoir appeared to be one of the highest points on the engine, so it wasn't clear to me what if anything would stop it from draining inward.  I confess I still don't have a good mental picture of how it's plumbed inside, but I trust what you're saying.

Before I posted I found plenty of posts about leaking flanges and none about flooded engines, so I guessed it was OK, I just didn't want to make a potentially disastrous assumption.

So much for my planned turtling drills though.  They'll have to wait until I can install a new gasket, just in case.   

Awesome, thank you everyone for the quick help!

Hi all,

I need a little hand-holding.  Is a potentially leaky exhaust flange gasket a risk to the engine, i.e. from coolant flooding the block?

I just replaced my motor mounts yesterday.  While lifting the engine, I had issues with the exhaust riser getting in the way.  After cursing about the extra gasket replacement work I'd be creating for myself, I tried unbolting the flange.  It appears quite new, and the nuts came off easily, but the flange wouldn't budge.  Then I noticed it dripping antifreeze and put on the brakes.  As the rest of you already know, the freshwater coolant manifold is also sealed by that flange, and I didn't drain it first...

I never actually pulled the gasket apart, and was able to stop the leak by re-torquing the nuts.  I was also able to replace the mounts without removing it after all.  My only concern now is whether coolant might be able to find its way back into the engine if the gasket is compromised.  Is a full coolant drain + gasket replacement necessary, or can I just keep an eye on it to make sure it doesn't start dripping?

Thanks!

I'm currently working on turning mine into a parallel hybrid with the M25XP...slow-tracked while I clear a backlog of other projects.  I previously converted a Hunter 25 to electric and have done a bunch of hull drag and prop calcs for both it and the Catalina.  PM me if you're interested.

Be careful with battery placement as it can affect the trim of the boat.  My old Hunter had a distinct backwards lean with just 72V x 100Ah mounted under the cockpit.

For general motoring, 3-4 kt is a good speed.  Anything more just starts wasting power.   400W of solar charged me during the week and generally kept up with me while cruising - even though I installed an induction stove to replace the portable Coleman.

That said, an electric auxiliary encourages you to use the wind whenever possible.  Motor sailing gains a new relevance.  400W can counteract your morning coffee and getting under way, but would be agonizingly slow without the battery to save it up for shorter bursts. There is still something to be said for a diesel that moves you endlessly in a straight line at 5-7kt when you just want to be somewhere.

Did you crimp the expensive hunks of wire from CD to your engine harness, or did you use thr non-ABYC compliment terminal strip that CD sells?

That burns almost as much as the original harness...

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For the M25XP, the fuel pump should come on with the key switch.

In the original diagram, I believe battery is red and alternator is orange; both are connected via the ammeter and go to "B" on the key switch.  That means "A" / purple is the switched side and the fuel pump should be connected to it.

You should be able to trace the wire from the pump to figure out which end it terminates at.

Err, how do you attach a piccie these days with the new message board layout?

For some reason, it's not available in the "quick reply" at the bottom of the page.  You have to actually click the "reply" button and then there will be a link below the message area.  And if you're on a phone the "reply" button seems to be hidden under "user actions"

Hope this helps!

I assume you have fixed the topping lift? ;-)

Haha!  I wondered if anyone would notice.      Actually, the traveler had come apart and dumped its nylon bearings all over the deck earlier that day, so I dropped the boom to keep it from swaying unconstrained.  I fixed it the next morning but the photo op was gone by then.

Carver's harbor, Vinalhaven, ME last summer - my second voyage in the Catalina.

I just posted about similar findings:
  (https://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,11983.0.html)

If you look at my pictures, the rectangular cracks in the fairing around the log suggest the original may have been pre-glassed into a larger rectangular assembly.

I'm no fiberglass expert, but I would think sandwiching it in layers of fiberglass that are appropriately tapered into the hull above and below would be much more robust than simply boring it out and gluing in a new one, and probably easier in the end too.

My other suggestion would be to put the shaft back in and shim it so it's centered relative to what's left of the tube.  Assuming you have the cutlass bearing out, you'll also have to shim it so it's properly centered in the strut as well.  Re-align the motor based on the proper shaft position.  You can then use the motor, strut, and shaft to achieve correct alignment when installing the new tube.

Also take a good hard look at your strut with a magnifying glass to make sure you don't have the kind of corrosion / fracture mine had.  If you were that far out of alignment, it could've seen some stress.

Stories to keep you awake at night

When I bought my boat a year ago, I noted some small cracks in the paint on the prop strut.  I sanded it away and found some hairline cracks, as well as some "pinking" in the metal.  The cutlass bearing had a tiny amount of play.  I put it on my to-do list but didn't end up getting to it last spring.  During the course of the summer, I also found a couple of the motor mount bolts had vibrated loose.  But as far as I could tell without separating the coupling (which was rusted / frozen on), alignment seemed OK.  Engine shake was no worse in gear than at idle, although that's not saying anything.  Fortunately, I sailed all summer without any major issues.


With magnification:


At haul out, the cracks had resurfaced through the new paint and the cutlass bearing was totally shot, so no more putting it off (not that I planned to).  I ordered a new strut from CD, new motor mounts, and set about removing the old shaft, which I had also decided to replace.  That's when the fun really began.

Pulling the stuffing box, I discovered the shaft was nearly resting on the bottom of the log, even while mated to the transmission and seemingly in alignment - likely because the worn cutlass bearing allowed it to sag (and also: likely the cause of the worn bearing).  It called to mind justinsteele's post a couple of months ago where the bottom of his shaft log was totally worn away.  I was lucky, and mine appears intact.


However, some cracks in the fairing on the underside of the hull mean it must have seen some stress / vibration and I'm in for some grinding and/or fiberglass repairs to make sure it's still firmly attached.


The shaft coupler was, of course, frozen on.  After exhausting all other options, a sawzall and some cutting fluid made short of work of it.  My advice:  if you know you're not saving the shaft, don't even bother trying to get it off the regular way.

Next up:  getting the shaft out.  The issue was clearing the rudder.  I had read that one can get the shaft out without dropping the rudder if the cutlass bearing is removed, but I didn't have a strut-pro.  The new strut has the bearing pre-installed, so as long as the shaft is installed before the strut there will be no need for fancy tools.  Worst case I could have pulled out the sawzall again, but I hoped maybe the wear would be enough to let me sneak it past.  No such luck, but when I pulled on it I could see the strut's crack widening!  A couple of good heaves later it split wide open and I could slide the shaft out easily   


There's nothing like the feeling of vindication after you've already decided to fix something...

@High Anxiety

I've previously posted about my same experience re: the fingertight aft nut and keel bedding so many times that my head hurts every time I repost about it.

Well, thanks for doing it one more time.  I found your post quite helpful.  I've read a lot of posts about keels, including a few of yours, but managed to miss the similarity with the aft nut.

Are you thinking that CTY bolted-up the keel nuts/washers into wet gelcoat?  Doesn't seem logical to me.  What does, is the known issue on C-30s of torquing the nuts so many times that the washers compress the glass and bury themselves in the gelcoat.

Maybe it's not gelcoat per se, but whatever brittle white material coats the bottom of the sump partially covered all of the washers, appeared to be original, and cracked free easily when I disturbed it.  Photos below

That said I'm unsure whether I would trust the yard with anything.  Someone who blocks jack stands with 2x4s has (IMO only) questionable knowledge/conscientiousness and at worst doesn't care about their customers' yachts.  Gimmeabreak -- don't they have lumber yards in ME?

No kidding.  I have stories....

If I had time to do the work myself it wouldn't hesitate to DIY, but it's 4 hours away and I have young children who need me to pick them up from school every day.  My main reason to re-bed NOW would be to preserve integrity of the bolts.  BUT if I weren't going through this process I probably wouldn't be worrying about it...

See above for (IMO) the danger of too-often and too-tighting of the keel nuts.
Keel nuts that are 40 ft-lbs shy do not cause the Catalina smile.

Does it crush the solid glass or only the wood core that I don't have?

I used to think similarly but managed to convince myself otherwise.  Loose keel nuts put extra stress / strain on the keel-hull joint that could lead to cracks and water ingress.  On the other hand, I agree that 65 vs. 105 ft-lb is probably enough pre-load either way; at 105 ft-lb = ~10,000 lbf, a single bolt could hold the entire keel if it were in pure, static tension.

Reasons in favor of re-torquing that I can think of:
1)  Lead creep and other factors (see: corroded washer in my previous post) can reduce bolt tension over time
2)  Low bolt tension can lead to uneven loading of the keel and excessive stress/strain in the joint, possibly compromising the joint / bedding
3)  If a keel bolt has been severely corroded, I would rather have it snap off when I try to torque it on the hard than have it silently stop holding my keel.

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(1) made me wonder:  What's the coefficient of thermal expansion of our hulls?  Does it matter at what temperature one torques the bolt?  Were my bolts loose simply because it was April?

I'm going to assume the keel stub is one inch thick (0.0254 m).

This says CTE of fiberglass is 25E-6 m/m-C: https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/linear-expansion-coefficients-d_95.html  10 degC @ 1" would be 6.35E-6 m of expansion, or 0.025%.  Stainless is pretty close but let's ignore that for now to get a worst-case.

If I assume some lubrication (because anti-galling), then 105 ft-lb is about 10,000 lb of clamping force ≈ 44kN.  https://www.engineersedge.com/calculators/torque_calc.htm

The washers are 1 7/8" diameter.  Crudely, that amounts to 0.00178 m^2.  44kN / 0.00178 m^2 ≈ 25 MPa of stress.

Finally, looking here, one presumes strain is fairly linear at about 1% per 40 MPa:  https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Stress-strain-cure-for-fiberglass-Figure-6-The-stress-strain-curve-and-tyre-strip-for_fig4_305627338

Assuming I did it all right, 10C change in temperature causes 0.025% change in thickness which causes 1.8 MPa change in stress out of 25MPa total, before you consider that the stud is also contracting.  So no, temperature isn't a huge factor.  But that was fun!

I can also confirm there's an embedded, threaded something on my 1990 mk1.5.  I got really nervous when I first looked under there and the studs had no nuts or washers, but I eventually put 2+2 together...

Well, spring is here, and like all good boat projects, this one quickly got out of hand...

If you remember, I decided that sealing the "smile" from the outside and the bolt from the inside would be my course of action.  But I decided to seal the other bolts while I was at it.  The first thing I did was check torque and I discovered that only one nut required >20 ft-lb to tighten; even that one required less than 40     The aft-most nut was so loose my thumb turned it while I was scooping the literal sludge out of that compartment.  I strongly suspect, based on the undisturbed gelcoat over the washers, and based on the aforementioned sludge, that this is the first time in 34 years anyone gave these bolts any thought.

Next I removed all the bolts and cleaned under the washers to ensure I would get a good seal with Sikaflex.  This was a BIG project involving copious amounts of degreaser, acetone, and elbow grease.  The washers were set into the original gelcoat, which formed a surprisingly poor seal; I would say at least 50% of the surface area under each washer was a void.  There was no sealant around the nut / threads.  These voids were filled with grease and led to mild corrosion of the undersides of the washers.  The washer for the rearmost bolt, however, is almost completely gone, which explains why its nut (which was also heavily corroded) was so loose.  Luckily the stud appears mostly intact.  Around the studs I could see where bedding had squeezed into the holes from below.  Although it didn't fill any of them completely, it should have protected most of the invisible part of the stud from corrosion - if it's intact.  Whether or not that underlying bedding is still intact is the (hopefully less than) $64,000 question.

So I am once again hemming and hawing over whether to drop the keel.  On the one hand, I want to be comfortable that no further ingress is possible, and only a fresh bedding job above *and* below can make it a certainty.  Likewise, if the bedding is compromised, dropping the keel is the only sure way to dry it out before I seal it from above.  I observed some cracks much lower on the keel that had weeped some and had me worried, but I went back to a picture of haul-out and found they were already there.  Still, it does make me wonder if water can seep up behind the fairing and get to the keel-hull joint even if it looks solid.

On the other hand, the keel is clearly attached quite firmly if it managed not to crack more than it did with the bolts so loose.  That speaks to possible damage from and difficulty with separating it, and I'm placing a lot of trust in the yard to do everything right; a botched repair could create problem with something that appears solid now.  Removing the keel is also a costly job that could lead to more costly jobs on a 34 year old boat.  If the bedding hasn't failed I'm better off leaving it as-is.  But with the bolts having all been so loose...what are the chances?

It is bizarre to me that Catalina apparently did not seal the bolts from the top; for all the concern about sea water getting in from below, it seems too easy for water (including salt from the stuffing box) to compromise the top portion of the bolts.  Did they not realize crevice corrosion existed back in 1990?

I also think there's a compelling correlation between grease and corrosion.  For all that the studs look OK below the (bilge) water line, there's some rust and pitting at/above the water line on some of them.  If grease traps in water and keeps out oxygen, I could certainly see it facilitating crevice corrosion. 

Moral of the story:  keep your bilge clean, seal your bolts from the inside if you haven't already, and check torque often.  Also, take lots of pictures: you never know when you might be wanting that "before" photo.

I have for a long time disagreed with the thought (Catalina factory fantasy) that smiles are due to the blocking.

Actually I buy it.  My old hunter had a smile too.  I filled/faired with G/flex and sailed for a season.  At haul out, hanging in the travelift slings, I was eager to see how it had held up.  Perfect.  An hour later she was on the stands and the seam had been cracked open.

Thanks everyone!  @ewengstrom your description of removing the keel is giving me cold feet on my original plan - seems like more opportunity to do harm than good, *especially* if I'm entrusting the work to someone else.

When I bought the boat a year ago my conclusion was "just a Catalina smile".  The bilge was full of water (on the hard) and the crack was dry.  No big deal - I fixed one on my old hunter and they're just part of having a fin keel, right?

What reduced me to panic was realizing that the bilge is leaking and rust is weeping out, which means salt water has reached and is corroding at least one of my keel bolts.  At least the antifreeze is rinsing it clean?    I saw the Catalina tech note on resealing them, but the outside must be fixed as well or it's just hiding the real problem.  Is crack filling with G/flex up to the task? 

I think my plan will be to do the following, go sailing, and see how it looks next fall:
1)  Reseal the keel bolt(s) from the inside
2)  Let everything dry out for a few weeks
3)  Grind + seal the crack with G/Flex
4)  Torque the keel bolts

Thanks again for holding my hand!