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Messages - pbyrne

#1
Quote from: KWKloeber on April 09, 2024, 08:20:40 PM@pbyrne

I think you are looking at the result of freeze-thaw. 
A little water gets behind the fairing (typically from wicking down the keel bolt threads and attacking the polyester "mung" keel bedding.) 
Then it only gets worse and worse, year after year.  That's what happened on my C30, except about 1/3 of the bedding was "gone."  Not gone as in missing, but "gone" as in turned into wet mush (like wet drywall) from water leaking down the bolts to the bedding and attacking it.

I doubt you tightened the keel by torquing the nuts.  More likely you were compressing the nuts into the fiberglass bilge. 

IIWMB here what I would do to first investigate/confirm what's going on.

1) Use your angle grinder ("cheap" at Harbor Freight if you don't have one) with a 1/4" thick wheel https://www.lowes.com/pd/DEWALT-Silicon-Carbide-4-5-in-Grinding-Wheel/1207179 (buy several!) 
Using a Dremel as some typically suggest (or any other child's tool) is just wasting your time.  It's an adult job, use an adult tool.

2) At the most forward and aft points, grind away ONLY enough fairing covering the joint to expose the joint/bedding material.  It should be whiteish-gray (or grayish-white?), about 1/4" to 3/8" thick, polyester mung between the keel and stub. 

3) Snap a chalk line to mark the precise location of the joint along the keel.

4) Use the wheel sideways -- such that you grind a slot into the fairing/bedding.  NOT flatways grinding away a 4" or 5" swath of fairing.)  Lightly grind a shallow groove then keep going back over it to deepen it until you get to the bedding. Grind just below the edge of the bedding, not deep into it.

5) Probe the condition of the bedding (ice pick, thin screwdriver, etc.) to see if it is competent or if spots have deteriorated.

6) Obviously while grinding you can determine what's going on, how extensive the "peeling" fairing is, if the bond is broken and is loose, and if it needs to be ground away as well.   

7) What you discover will determine the fix -- simply filling the ground-out slot with G-Flex, or grinding off more fairing (wider swath) to wrap the joint (I used 4" biaxial glass tape/epoxy resin, but I would use carbon fiber if I did it again today.)




I can't say for sure whether or not the nuts went into the fibreglass or not, but they didn't appear too.  I can see how using 500lbs of torque or something nuts would do that, but 105 which I believe is the recommened torque shouldn't do that should it; unless there is something wrong with the fibreglass?

Also, while I ensure the bilge is dry during the sailing season, winter layout always results in engine coolant in the bildge over the winter.  100% guaranteed.

What's the approach to ensure that the keel bolts can't 'wick'?

Finally, does anyone know what the keel bedding is on a 2000? It would at least be nice to know what was used that could essentially rot!
#2
Quote from: ewengstrom on April 08, 2024, 06:45:06 AMSticking my nose in here simply because I do have a bit of experience with Catalina 34 keel attachment.
In going back and forth with Catalina recently I know that Catalina covers the joint with fiberglass and then a fairing compound over the glass to smooth it out. I found evidence of this during recent work on my C34.
Based on this picture, I see no evidence of the glass, only a clear line at the keel joint itself. Perhaps this boat had its keel removed sometime in its past but the joint wasn't glassed over when reattached? Or the joint was exposed for some reason and not glassed back over?
I'm definitely of the mind to remove the bottom paint and fair and putty the joint as needed. If the flaking recurs then you can consider grinding the area back and glassing the joint, but with no weeping it's definitely a cosmetic repair.
As is often said around these parts, YBYC.

Interesting.

I'm the second owner and for the 4 years I've owned it the keel hasn't been touched other than to tighten the keel bolts, and for the other 20 years, most of that it spent on a tame, fresh water river, in Ontario Canada.

I'm 100% confident the keel has never been removed, ever, for any reason.

Unless there's a layer of fiberglass hiding somewhere the picture doesn't show, Catalina did not use fiberglass on this keel.

I can also say that there were 3-4 other C34 MKII of around the same age, where the boat used to be, and they all looked identical at the keel to hull joint to my eye.  I looked around the yard the first year this started to happen.
#3
Quote from: Jim Hardesty on April 06, 2024, 08:13:21 AM
QuoteHow so you cut the bands...?

Big scissors or slip a thin piece of wood under the bands and use a knife. They cut easy enough if they are plastic as mine were.
Jim

Good point. I assumed they were metal.
#4
Quote from: Jim Hardesty on April 06, 2024, 07:27:33 AM
QuoteSorry, I should have been more specific.  Did you attach the straps themselves to the tray or where they wrapped around the tray and the tank and then cinched down?

They wrapped around the tray, same as the original banding straps.  That's the reason for pulling a tracer line with the old banding straps then used the tracer to pull the hold-down strap thru.
Jim

Got it.

So how do you cut the bands...?
#5
Quote from: Jim Hardesty on April 06, 2024, 03:58:04 AM
QuoteOk.. I think I get it.  How did you secure the ends of the straps?

Rolled them up, sort of more liked folded, then secured with cable ties.
Jim

Sorry, I should have been more specific.  Did you attach the straps themselves to the tray or where they wrapped around the tray and the tank and then cinched down?
#6
Main Message Board / Re: Keel Bedding Survey
April 05, 2024, 06:48:06 PM
Quote from: Ron Hill on March 17, 2024, 03:23:06 PMdan : Disagree with you on the cause of the smile.  I talked to the factory many years ago and they recommend that the boat be blocked with 75% of the weight on the jack stands/cradle and 25% of the weight on the nose of the keel.  Also VERY important to get the jack stand pads on the bulkhead!!

A few thoughts

Ron, do you think this could be the cause of the fairing flaking off in my other thread?  Sorry to hijack a bit... hopefully you know what I'm referring to Ron!
#7
Quote from: Ron Hill on April 05, 2024, 02:40:45 PMpby : I'd call EDSON (508) 995-9711 and send them your picture and pose your problem to them. I've talked to them in the past and they have been VERY helpfull !!

A thought

I read somewhere that it's 30 weight oil an teflon for the bushings, which I'm assuming is in the pedestal itself. 

Is it relatively easy to get to the chain in the pedestal?
#8
Quote from: Noah on April 05, 2024, 02:49:42 PM:D It looks pretty cosmetic to me so I would NOT recommend 3M 5200 for this.  You don't need adhesive strength in your case and it is hard to make it smooth and fair. I would just use a good epoxy fairing/filler—-that you can sand smooth and paint. If the crack was "open" and weeping or you were rebedding the keel, then 5200 is a good choice.

No weeping, it's just slowing been getting worse over the last 3 years or so.  I didn't think it was anything serious, but I thought I'd ask the experts!  I looked around at other C34's in the yard and they didn't seem to be doing this.

I only tightened the keel bolts last year to 105ft/lbs (I think that's the number). I don't think it's been done in 23 years.  They weren't that bad.  One or two needed a half turn, most needed a touch to a 1/4 turn.
#9
Quote from: Ron Hill on April 05, 2024, 02:35:10 PMpby : Look like the faring material is flaking off now that you tightened up the keel bolts!!

I'd take a "V" type can opener and scrape out the old material and use 3M 5200 and far-in the crack.

A thought

Are you talking about one of those to open one of these?  LOL
#10
Quote from: Jim Hardesty on April 05, 2024, 02:03:08 PM
QuoteHow did you attach the rachet straps?

When I pulled the old banding straps I taped a tracer line and pulled it through.  I didn't use rachet straps, used cam lock straps and pulled tight.  The strap had the cam lock on one side and only one strap that followed the path of the original banding straps the cam lock was on top and the extra length of the strap was secured.  Was simpler to do then explain. 
Jim

Ok.. I think I get it.  How did you secure the ends of the straps?
#11
Quote from: Ron Hill on April 05, 2024, 01:43:09 PMpby : Yes, that's the correct video. What happens over time is that the threads in the cable lay closer together giving the impression of the cable stretching.

I was able to tighten up my tension by just removing that "Dog House" screwed into the ceiling of the aft cabin and use extensions and a deep well socket. REMINDER those "Dog House" screws are two different lengths!! So when you reassemble the longer screws go into the overhead(UP)and the shorter screws the part that is on the outside of the water tank (aft panel)!! Yes, you can puncture the water tank if you mix up the longer screws!!!

You want to take up the tension equally on both sides. You want the tension to be just tight with no sag - NOT super taught !!  :thumb:

A few thoughts

OH! you can reach the quadrant from in the aft cabin?!  Huh.  And here I laid off the cheetos to fit into the lazarette!
#12
Quote from: KWKloeber on April 05, 2024, 01:36:03 PMDo you have pull-pull called in sheaths or cables on sheaves?

The cables are adjusted by the eye bolts, unless they are too stretched and need to be removed, taken up on the u-bolt clamps, then adjusted.

If you have the enclosed type cables there is a lube assembly with a zerk fitting to put on the end of the sheath. Obviously, that requires removing the cables from the radial wheel.

Hmm.  It has exposed cables if I remember correctly, with sheaves in the aft cabin.  It's a MKII if that helps any...
 
Best picture I have attached.
#13
Quote from: Jim Hardesty on April 05, 2024, 01:01:38 PM
QuoteI don't have a picture, but there are a couple of black straps that hold the tank to the tray, and I'm not sure how you remove them.

They are banding straps.  Only way is to cut them off. Sounds brutal but it's the only way. If you have some pull on a loading dock you may be able to borrow a tool and the material to replace them. I replaced them with Harbor Freight hold down straps.  Something like this but with only one strap and no hooks.  Has worked for many seasons and a lot of sailing.
https://www.harborfreight.com/set-of-two-6-ft-cam-buckle-tie-downs-94012.html

Jim

I was afraid that was what they were...

How did you attach the rachet straps?
#14
Quote from: Noah on April 05, 2024, 12:19:24 PMThe Edson website should have info and probably a video too.

Is this it? https://youtu.be/eDa6fKxmoBU?t=324

Also, what lubricants are needed might as well do that too!
#15
There's some play in the helm, and a bit more deflection in the cable then I think should be there.

How do you adjust the tension of the cable?