Messages

Are you a DYI or Projects person?  Have you done lots to your boat?  Do you want an easy way to refer your fellow C34IA members to your handiwork?

I've added another section to the Tech Wiki main page, called "By Boat/Author".  The idea is that people who regularly contribute projects can build a list of all they have done.  It is also a convenient starting point for creating the page for your next project.  And once your new project/job wiki page is ready, it is easy to then add that page's link to the other categorized sections of the main tech wiki. 

To keep the tech wiki main page from getting too cluttered, please just list your boat's name and optionally the hull number.  Make that a page link to your boat's project index.

To illustrate, I have added my own "Yorkshire Rose" as the first entry.  The link there takes you to a page where I simply list my projects.  I chose to list them both chronologically and systematically, but you are free to choose any format that you are comfortable using.  As we say around here, "Your boat, your choice."

Mark

Maine Sail,
My apologies.    I rushed through Stu's original written description of Option 2(A) and didn't stop to look at your diagram.  That's the problem with being overloaded by "stuff".

I see now that I over-estimated the chances casual human error causing the starter battery to be drained by the house bank.  In both our schemes (2A and 2B), the chance is still there.  In both, it takes more than a single mistake to cause that specific problem to occur.

Mark

[WITHOUT COMBINING the two banks]

Interesting.  Especially because I chose OPTION 3 for Y.Rose.

• Make it very difficult to use starter battery to power the house systems.
• Make it easy to use house bank either alone or to combine (boost) the starter.

Mark, good point.  It's not really a third option, because what you've described is operationally exactly the same as the the dual circuit concept but with two switches, and with exactly the same deficiencies I've edited in the quote from your post.

I agree, the skipper REALLY has to understand how to choose and then how to use his system.

Interesting.  Especially because I chose OPTION 3 for Y.Rose.

• Make it very difficult to use starter battery to power the house systems.
• Make it easy to use house bank either alone or to combine (boost) the starter.

Mark, good point.  It's not really a third option, because what you've described is operationally exactly the same as the the dual circuit concept but with two switches, ...

No, it is not the same as the Blue Seas Dual Circuit concept.  In the BS-DC implementation, the operator only has two options:
1. concurrently activate both the starter and house circuits as isolated circuits, or
2. combine all circuits.  

My arrangement has different options:
1. Turn on the house bank while leaving the starter bank turned off.
2. Turn on the starter bank while leaving the house bank turned off.
3. Turn on both but keep them isolated.
4. Turn on and cross connect both.
5. Leave the starter battery disconnected.  Use house bank for just starting the engine.
6. Leave the starter battery disconnected.  Use house bank for house load AND starting the engine.

... and with exactly the same deficiencies I've edited in the quote from your post.

The only deficiency I have is the ability to use just the starter battery alone to power the house loads.  But this would only be an issue if there was a serious problem with the house battery bank.  And if that was the case, the bad battery could be disconnected or the whole bank disconnected by removing the appropriate power fuse.  Now if the house bank was merely drained, I don't have a problem.  I just start the motor and the house bank would begin to recover as soon as the alternator was generating power.  My alternator has been upgraded and is spec'ed for 110A max.  I don't realistically think it would be able to sustain that, but at the same time, my house bank would probably only absorb 60A during initial bulk changing phase (20% x 300 AH), so I have spare amps to run the house loads even with drained and charging house batteries.

I agree, the skipper REALLY has to understand how to choose and then how to use his system.

Absolutely agree with this.


But then again, we DO seem to have philosophically different viewpoints of the purpose for the #2 battery bank and circuit.  You describe it below as a "reserve bank".  I think of it as the "starter battery".

Conceptually, I simply disagree with these electrical system "design criteria" and would always want to have the ability to power LIMITED LOADS from the reserve bank WITHOUT COMBINING the two banks, which can easily be done with the two systems described above.  Maine Sail made the case and explained the downside of combining banks in his referenced link in my last post.

Why?  Because it is the HOUSE bank that is much more likely to be drawn down than the reserve bank.

Granted.  And the BS Dual Circuit switch is not the answer, for all the reasons Maine Sail describes, and you and I agree both with.


And there is a subtle point to my design that I think was overlooked earlier.  My variation of OPTION 2 attempts to reduce the impact on the battery banks when human error occurs.  For identification, lets call the original description you posted OPTION 2A, and call mine 2B.

In 2A, there is a greater chance for casual human error to accidentally draw down the "starter" battery.  All it takes is someone accidentally setting the [main] 1-2-B switch to the starter/reserve bank (or the Both) position when turning on power to the house DC distribution panel.  Then the only way to get sufficient power to the starting motor is to either combine the weak and strong banks (which has the very problems described in the previous threads), or to disconnect the weak bank's battery cable first and then move the selector switch to "B" to get the strong bank to the starter circuit.

In 2B, there is no chance for casual human error to draw down the starter battery when turning on house power.  It takes a specific and less likely set of actions to make that mistake.  Yes, it is possible, but far less likely to be left without the ability to start the motor and recharge the batteries.

Good to see you back and active.

Sometimes life throws just too much stuff in our path and we just have to focus our limited time and energy resources.  I have finally managed to shovel some of that stuff to the side.  It is good to be back and active here again.[/list]

[inverter]

You are right Stu.  I didn't go back to the beginning of the thread where he says it is a Freedom 10.  I did, though, re-read where Dave described it as a combination charger/inverter. 

... there is no delay on the Freedom units, the transfer switch is essentially instantaneous.  ... there was not enough load to trigger the inverter to come on. 

What you just said about minimum load only seems to apply to the "inverter mode" scenario.  (FYI, my Magnum inverter/charger has same capability, so I took that into account already.) 

I unplugged the light, turned the master switch off and then on again - I could hear a click at the inverter. I then plugged in the light and it worked again.

In the last scenario Dave described (i.e. the demo for his wife), the shore AC was present.  He had a load connected and was still not getting AC power to the loads.  He only got power after disconnecting the loads.  This is opposite of what the load sensing circuitry should be doing.  And it should not apply to the AC transfer mode anyway, according to Stu.

I think the real cause is yet to be explained.  But if Dave is happy with the way the AC works now, then I'm happy to just let this discussion be too.

This comes from this topic, Basic Battery Wiring Diagrams:  http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6604.0.html  

I separated it because I use the original topic as a link for others for information.  This is a helpful discussion for alternative ideas, that warrant discussion as different ways to do things, but do not reflect my intention of KISS.  - Stu  10/22/2011  

************************************************************************************

Interesting.  Especially because I chose OPTION 3 for Y.Rose.

Two switches.  A simple and highly visible ON/OFF for the house battery bank, which send power to the DC distribution panel.  And a out-of-sight but easily accessed OFF-1-2-BOTH switch for selecting the source of power to start the engine.  (1=dedicated starting battery only, 2=house bank only.  Both and Off are self explanatory.)  

My logic is as follows:
Different battery technologies for each application.  Large (~300 AH) bank of deep cycle Gel cells for house bank, and "ordinary" wet cell with high cold cranking amps for starter.  Alternator output goes to house bank.  Balmar "Duo Charger" gets input from house bank and output charges the starter battery.

The switch circuit I describe above then facilitates....

• House bank is normal choice for the house power.
• Starter battery normally connects to starter and remains isolated from house bank.
• Make it very difficult to use starter battery to power the house systems.
• Make it easy to use house bank either alone or to combine (boost) the starter.

So using just an ON-OFF for the house bank switch is nearly foolproof.  I (or especially, my guests) have only one simple, obvious action to get power to the house systems.  And that simple On-OFF action alone can NOT power the house systems from the starter battery.  So the chance of accidentally selecting the starter battery to power the house and thus draining that crucial battery is virtually nil.

When I want to run the engine, the starter power selector switch is normally set to the starter battery only position.  This keeps it isolated from the house bank but ready at any time to start the motor.  If the starter battery does not have enough power for any reason though, I can choose to combine with or substitute the house bank.  If I did so, it would be a very conscious choice and ss soon as the engine is running, I would return the switch to the normal position.  And since this switch is not in a high visibility area, there is very little chance my guests would accidentally (or purposely) change it.

A slightly outdated, but still accurate diagram is near the bottom of the Project Wiki page: http://www.c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Electrical_System_Upgrade_-_Yorkshire_Rose.

As Ron so often says, "your boat, your choice".

I eventually jammed a fiberglass fish tape (rapidly becoming my favorite $5 tool) through the silicone goop while my wife watched through the small wire hole in the guard until she could just see the top of the tape. Using a dental pick was able to hook the tape and get it out of the hole. Taped the new wire to the end and drew it back down.

Whenever I have to deal with something like that, I always attach TWO items and pull them back through:
1. the wire/cable/line/etc that was the original purpose, and
2. an extra piece of line so that the NEXT TIME, there is already a pull line in place.

Just my 2 cents.

[Hypothetically]

So - apparently, if you turn off the master switch with the inverter that I have, you have to turn off all AC devices before turning the switch on again.

Curious....

What model inverter do you have?

Honestly I've never heard of an inverter that required output side ("the load") to be disconnected before it would start working when input side was (re)connected.  But I know from personal experience that some inverters DO have several types of circuit protections. 

Let's take the Magnum inverter/Charger I have on Y.Rose is an example:
    My inverter/charger has a fixed delay of approximately 30 seconds after the AC input ("the line") is switched on before it will close the internal "transfer relay" and send the line current to the load. 
    Could that be true for your inverter as well?  Hypothetically, the scenario was.....  You reconnected the inverter and nothing came out.  (Your wife was watching and your genius-hood was at risk.  )   So after just 10 or 20 seconds, you removed the loads from the output side.  Then the inverter delay period expired and enabled the AC output.  And when you reconnected the loads and it all worked.  It would appear as if your statement above as the answer, but actually patience was the real solution.

The real behavior of your inverter could be just as you say, that the loads must be disconnected before it will enable the output.  Or maybe it is like my inverter, there is a fixed delay.  Or maybe some other explanation; for example, it may sense how much load is on the output (using a trickle or current pulse) and won't turn on if the load is too high. 

What does your inverter's owners manual say?

Again, what you describe just does not match with my experience.  And my experience also says, when something is acting strange, it is then time to RTFM!   

First question, the vee berth locker (big empty space under the cushions) does not drain to the bilge. has anyone drilled a drain hole through the aft vee bulkhead to correct this?

Yes, Y.Rose has a drain hole.  I assumed it was put there by Catalina, but I suppose it could have been the PO.  Here's a couple pictures.  (BTW, the PO also used the hole for passing the depth sounder and knot log cables into that space.)

Sorry to reply so late.  I had to get up to the boat to shoot pictures.

The PO set up storage in the port lazarette.  Some might argue that they would come loose in a heavy sea or knock down.  But in eleven years of sailing, the hatchboards have stayed in place and never been an obstacle.

Nah.  The happiest is the first, I don't know about the second and never ever want to face it.  I'm with Ron Hill on that one!

I've heard it said, "Old sailors never retire....  They just get a little dinghy."

Last year, I installed a new combination Charger/Inverter after the old charger died.  (Full details coming to a Projects Wiki page near you soon.)

When wiring the AC side, I did use butt joints and then "glue filled" heat shrink tubing over the joints.  Here's a couple of pictures.

I had to tear most of the boat apart to do the installation, but all I do now is put my toe on the UP switch and the windlass brings it all in!! 
Try it, you'll like it!! 

You can view Ron's project here: http://www.c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Windlass_Inside_Double_Door_Anchor_Well

And other "Adding a Windlass" projects as well here: http://www.c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Anchoring_%26_Docking

Hey Stu,
Why not add your "stern rail seat for Mk I boats" to the Tech Wiki project pages?  I'm sure other Mk I owners would be interested.  (I know my mate is.)

That same Project page is available on our Tech Wiki as well:
http://www.c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Electrical_System_Upgrade_-_Yorkshire_Rose

BTW Ralph,
Since you are in San Diego and I'm in Oceanside, we are essentially neighbors.  If you would like to see my wiring changes first hand, let me know.
Mark