Messages

Made it to the boat today to do some more investigating. I pulled the hx zink to drain the fresh water side antifreeze and check its colour. It looked a lot more green to me than I remember. It was the blue -100 PG stuff, and now it looks more teal I think.  Kristina disagrees, so maybe it's my imagination. My thinking was that it would have turned green from the blue PG mixing with the green-yellow EG from the fresh water side, if there is a leak in the hx. Anyway, after that I opened the petcock to drain the fresh water antifreeze, or what's left of it. How much would you expect to get out of the heat exchanger petcock? I know the entire system is something a bit under 7L, but I imagine a good amount of that would be lower than the hx, like in the hot water tank loop? I got out what is in the jug in this photo. I guess that's about 2.5l or so if that's a gallon jug. The small graduate is filled with all the blue/green Antifreeze that came out of the hx through the zink port. Tomorrow I'm going to head back to the boat and pull the hx to clean it up and get it pressure tested.

Anyway I have decided they are stupid and they are coming off.

A friend who does a lot of multi day offshore racing has a set of red LEDs that light up the cockpit deck. I crewed on a night race with him last season, and it was actually so nice having those just to see where you were stepping. I'm thinking your transom lights  switched to red LEDs could be really nice for preventing accidental steps into the drink while at anchor.

Thanks gang. I feel slightly better that I didn't get a bunch of immediate responses of "You've cracked your engine, the missing antifreeze is all in the block". That being said, I will take Kyle's advice and check the oil level/smell. I should have thought of that. Fingers crossed the oil level has not gone up since putting her away for the winter. Ron, I should have removed the pencil zink after winterising, that would make sense since I'll be replacing it in the spring anyway. Next year will do.
We have a social at the clubhouse this weekend, so I will ask around and see if anyone may have one of those pressure testers I can borrow.
Given that I was planning to flush and change the antifreeze this season anyway, I'm contemplating bringing the HX home this weekend to clean, have tested, and paint. Is my life going to be significantly more difficult if I do this all on the hard vs in the water? My main concern is with regard to bleeding the system. My understanding is that if I use a pump to transport the new coolant through the entire loop, there shouldn't be too much bleeding to do. Would an airlock show up in the limited time I'd run the engine on the hard, or am I likely to think I'm fine, launch the boat, and have it overheat while floating around helplessly blocking the boat launch? Obviously I won't be able to do the coolant change until the risk of freezing has past, as we'll need to run the engine with water feeding the raw water side.

P.S Noah, when you had your tank pinhole, did you replace it immediately, or patch it?

On the hard north of Lake Superior. Back in mid February I did my usual monthly check of Coral Wave and found about 100cc of what appeared to be diesel in the aft most bilge. I say "what appeared to be" because it was -30c, so my olfactory and tactile senses were pretty well nonexistent. I checked around the engine, and from what I could figure the leak was at the lift pump. I'm hoping it is just something to do with expansion/contraction of the hoses and clamps. I went back to the boat today, exactly one month later, and there was about the same amount of liquid in the bilge. So, I think I'd call this a slow leak but it should be noted that we've never had any leak while the boat was in the water.

Anyway, this brings me to the second problem, which has me more concerned. While checking the engine over to see what was wet and what wasn't, I noticed a couple drops of coolant on the heat exchanger. It was just a couple drops, perhaps it has run along the hx via surface tension from the petcock? For some reason I was inspired to open the manifold cap, and this is where I really scared myself. The manifold is pretty well empty... Given the -40c days we had last month, I'm naturally spooked that something important has cracked. I don't see signs of antifreeze anywhere though, other than the drops on the hx. Again the liquid in the bilge appears to be diesel, and there isn't THAT much. I've read many of the "disappearing coolant" threads on here, but they all seem to relate to either coolant disappearing from the expansion bottle in the winter, or if elsewhere when the engine is running, not winterised. When the boat is laid up, where could it have gone in this case? The drain is open on my our water tank, so if it dumped in there I'd think it would have emptied into the bilge. If a crack were in the hx, I don't think it would drain the manifold as the hx is a higher point, and the engine isn't running and system therefore isn't under pressure. I didn't check the expansion tank today, but it has always been bone dry since we purchased the boat. The manifold has always been full, and that was good enough for me. We don't know if the PO had PG or EG in the system, so the plan was to leave it alone and drain/flush this spring, rather than guess and risk gelling of a wrong coolant combination. Frankly, I haven't been concerned about coolant, as the constant 4c temp of Lake Superior keeps the engine plenty cool.
Anyway, if it were your boat, where would you start searching for the missing coolant/dreaded crack? Are there any tests I can do, such as a pressure check while on the hard, or do all those tests require the boat to be operable, not winterised?
As always, thanks for any advice!

I have been following this conversation since it began.  Ken has tried to be helpful and, I believe has gone above and beyond in doing so.  I very early on suggested that you follow the instructions in the manual for your switch, have seen no evidence that's occurred although you seem to be more comfortable with the switch wiring and are confused about how the boat itself is wired.

Stu, I agree with you completely, Ken has gone well above and beyond, and I hope I have not come off as ungrateful. His advice has given me ideas of where to look on the boat, and what to read up on. As has been pointed out the internet is full of information, but you sort of need to know where to start and I've taken all the advice in this thread as starting points for a whole lot of Youtube watching and Calder reading this week. Also, I did not disregard your advice on the instructions for the switch. Unfortunately the instructions that came with it, as well as the additional resources on the manufacturer's website represent a system which does not, on the surface at least, represent ours. Much of my initial confusion was related to this being a powered switch and our old switch being unpowered.
With regards to my comment about cleaning up the wiring during the off season, I was considering that as an opportunity to not only make the system more tidy, but also as a chance for me to go through and determine what each and every wire is, label them, etc.

Aaron - Point of technique - I'm unsure if there's any nearby spot to do this near the pump on the 34, but here's a way to install a moisture-tight term strip: https://c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Electrical  (under items of interest)

BTW, (as you asked about) it's good to leave "neat looking" slack, not clip everything as tight I could.   But not leave a jungle.  That way if you have to re-do a terminal end or something else you have at least a 50-50 chance of no having to re-run the entire cable or cobb on an extension.

Thanks Ken, that looks like a great idea, I prefer the idea of a strip, as it seems like bilge pumps and switches fail frequently, and need to be replaced. That would make it very easy. Thanks for the advice on leaving slack, that makes sense. I'm pretty surprised by just how much excess wire there is in some places, given how detail oriented the previous owner was, and how good his workmanship was overall. I'm likely missing something, and he had a good reason for doing things the way he did.

Anyway, thanks again, I'm eagerly waiting for my parts to arrive so I can get this job done!

Thanks guys. I wanted an idea of what to purchase before opening up the piece of tubing, so that I'd be ready to go once starting the process of exposing things. The tube is sealed with silicone, I had just pulled the silicone out of the one side so I could see what is in there. It actually looks like the tube is filled with silicone, not just at the ends, so it may be difficult to remove, I'll find out once I'm ready to go. I guess worst case scenario I cut the tube along its length.

Use your multimeter to verify what's POS and NEG in the batty box, despite the color mismatch.
Switch the caps!

So, to verify the POS and Neg in the battery box would I just disconnect shore power, and put one lead from the multimeter on one side, and the other lead on the other, and see if I have a + or - number on the multimeter? If I'm way off on my assumption of what is what in there, would that be a potentially risky manoeuvre?
As a side note, with all the jumble of wire in there, it seems a good off season project this fall would be shortening all the wires so they are just long enough to make all their connections. Any reason not to?

Thanks Ken,

To be disconnected you need only to remove the MAIN POS, the NEGS can remain.  (But you should be able to simply isolate the batts using a battery selector switch somewhere?? and not mess with the cables.)
Did PO leave you a schematic how he wired her?

I've always been under the impression that when disconnecting a battery it was imperative for safety to remove the negative first, before removing the positive. Can you really just remove the positive without removing the negative? I guess it's just a matter of being extra careful not to short any tools?
We do have a standard 1/2/Both/Off switch, but if the old pump and switch are wired directly to the battery as is often suggested, would turning the switch to off make it safe for working on, cutting and splicing etc? My impression is the old switch and pump would still be live.
Unfortunately I haven't come across a wiring schematic. Sadly, the PO passed away and that is why the boat was sold. I'm sure he had a schematic, but perhaps it never made it back to the boat after the sale.

I'm not seeing what you describe about the confusing wiring, but if that helps any?:
     - Yellow is the new black for a NEG wire.
     - He may not have had a red cap and used a red one?

That's what I mean by confusing, there's a black cap on a red cable, and a red cap over a bunch of black cables with yellow shrink. I'm assuming the Red cable is + and he just had a black cap to fit, and similar situation with the Red cap on the negs.

Also, the old switch pigtails look too light a gauge.   A heavy POS and NEG should run to the pump, and then short, lighter switch pigtails powering the pump are ok because the length will cause virtually no V loss.  But the switch doesn't run directly to the pump -- I'd find out what's going on -- I wouldn't just rewire and not be sure I had good (high) power to the pump -- i.e., the shortest run you can get.)  The way the pump appears to be wired, it looks like you have unnecessary POS wire length.  (Unless he put a relay in there that the float switch trips and it powers the pump?)

So, I got deeper into the bilge today and discovered that the wires from the pump and the old switch run into a length of hose, where they are spliced and sealed. The 16 awg wires enter the hose, and 3 10awg wires emerge. So, the length of 16 is pretty short, and I suspect the 10 is a sufficient gauge to avoid significant voltage loss? Given this, I assume my best approach is to cut open this hose, and replicate the splices with the new switch, while additionally splicing the negative switch wire to the negative pump wire. Now, the question is, what is the best way to splice 10-16 wire? A terminal strip wouldn't be waterproof, and butt connectors don't  seem like they would be able to accommodate such difference in gauge.

Apparently Apple changed their photo format on the iPhone at some point recently, so it no longer shoots spec and now shoots something else. I converted the photos to jpeg, but I wonder if the issue is that people who can open the photos are on a different operating system than those who can not open the photos. Anyway, Ken, you've opened a can of worms now! This is basically going to turn into an "explain my electrical system" post. I'm going to try to re-upload photos here, as well as some others from my deep dive into the battery area last night. If it doesn't work this time, I can definitely email. I really appreciate the advice.
If I'm understanding the way our 4 golf cart batteries are wired, they form two pairs to make it a 12 volt system, with 460ish amp hours?
To safely work on electrical, I would disconnect the connections I've labeled Main Neg and Main Pos(as well as my starter battery)? Or am I missing anything ?
The connections along the wall are totally confusing me. Partially because one of them has yellow shrink, and a red cap. And then the big red cable has a black cap.  Would one of these be the best place to connect the brown and red terminal of the new switch? Or should I connect it directly to one of the positive terminals on a battery? It's actually very easy for me to run from the bilge to the batteries, but not to the breaker panel.

Since the switch is electronic, it needs power to it -- it does more that simply interrupt the connection on the power wire going to the pump (which that the old switch interrupted.) The new switch itself needs a power AND negative wire.

Ken,
Ahhhh! Of course! That makes perfect sense now. The old switch was just a simple mercury switch. Like you said, it just interrupts the power to the pump. I'm not sure what happened to the photos, but one showed the three wires on the new pump, labeled as such:
Brown wire - "Fasten to brown pump lead only"
Brown and red wire - "Power lead, fasten to + power only"
Black wire - "Fasten to pump negative (-) only"
The wires from the old switch are both black, but I suppose one of them would be a stand in for what the instructions are referring to as the "brown pump lead" and the other would be the one you mentioned as the power from the panel?
The cable coming out of the pump is a single thick one, but I'd guess if I cut it open, I'd likely find 3 wires, one of which is the negative that I need to splice the black switch wire to eh?
Thanks again!

Aaron : I went to school in Milwaukee and thought that Lake Michigan was cold until I went swimming in Lake Superior!!  Was at least 5-10 degrees colder!!   

I don't believe that you will ever have to worry about that packing gland getting hot!!

A thought

Ron, we went out cruising for a few days last weekend. Fortunately the winds were favourable, so we barely motored. When we did, the stuffing box remained very cool. No wonder, the lake water temperature ranged from an almost frozen 2.7c to a balmy 6c  I don't think our swim platform will get a whole lot of use in our new home...

Carrying on from my previous post about filling screw holes in the bilge after removing a failed float pump switch, I figured this question deserved its own thread. Now that I've removed the electrical tape and tubing from around the old SureBail float switch and Jabsco bilge pump wiring, I can see that the old float switch had two wires, whereas the new switch I've bought to replace it has three (see photos, yes those are Kleenex wicks to dry out the screw holes). My hope was that  this swap would be as easy as cutting the old switch wires, and splicing the new switch in, however this does not seem to be the case. I'm not sure that tracing and running the wires for the new switch is something I'm comfortable with. Also, the previous owner was an electrician, so everything is done perfectly, but is also fairly complex.
If I understand correctly, the reason bilge pumps have a third wire is to connect them directly (through a fuse) to the battery. I took a peak at our battery bank, and don't see anything that resembles the gauge of wiring from the bilge. Feeling around blindly, it feels like all the wires from the bilge pump and float switch run towards the electrical panel. Would there possibly be an additional wire that runs back from the panel to the battery or something like that?
Anyway, I guess what I'm really wondering is if there is a simplified way for me to get this installed, or is the only solution to run the wires from the switch, all the way to the panel, and to  some location on the battery?

[what brand switch did you get?]

I don't know who'd recommend a slow hardener especially for a job as small as filling screw holes.

It was suggested in a Practical Sailor https://www.practical-sailor.com/boat-maintenance/a-stronger-screwhole-repair article. The argument is that the fast hardener creates bubbles which reduce strength, but I believe from other comments here that is only an issue in rather large holes. Also, it looks like Maine Sail suggests fast hardener in his Marine How To article.

I don't know if I missed it but what brand switch did you get? My Guest, non mercury float switch failed in under 2 years. I replaced it with another Guest, non mercury switch. At least the holes matched!

David, I went with a Johnson 36152 as it was very well reviewed in several sources. It's a bit more expensive than the typical mercury switch type, but should be less prone to clogging and contamination. It just arrived in the mail, so I'll have a go at this project later this week.

Aaron : I'm going to guess that you are trying to "Make a Mountain out of a Mole hill"!!  Unless I'm wrong, these are TINY holes no more than 3/16" diameter and probably no deeper than 3/8" and the bottom of the hole still is solid!

Ron, you're not wrong, I'm definitely making a mountain out of a mole hill. I'm really just using it as a learning opportunity in a low consequence scenario. No point in practicing a technique if your practice is mediocre. "Il meglio è nemico del ben" and all that, but I'm gonna make these the best potted screw holes I can.

Our '98 has one in the same place. We gave the MagicEzy HAIRLINE FIX a go this year, and sadly, I wouldn't bother with it. There are no shortcuts in life. Next fall or spring we'll do it the right way as suggested by Ron.

Thanks everyone, I'm heading the advice and not touching the stuffing box for a while (other than to feel its temp) Unless it getting pretty hot, I'll leave it alone and hope that it sorts itself out. I think I may have just been over zealous with the syntef grease. I understand the reason for not compressing the packing and then backing off, but to be honest, I just didn't think it would be such an immediate effect. I figured after only a day or so, the packing would bounce back. Obviously if it was compressed for an extended period it would not. But, it seems from the comments here that it really is a matter of once it's compressed, that's how it's staying. Anyway, Lake Superior is even colder than that one really cold corner of our ice box right now, so that should help. Off for a sail!