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Messages - Sailing Amok

#16
Main Message Board / Re: M35B Hisssss
July 20, 2023, 02:58:19 PM
Quote from: Ron Hill on July 20, 2023, 02:38:06 PM
The raw water pump was already eliminated because the temp gage is staying at 160 degrees !!!  That also eliminated Ken's dissertation on the water pump's freezing up and breaking the lug connection on the engine (which is VERY important!!).
Oh, I see what you mean. However, our lake temp has yet to rise above 6c, so it wouldn't take much flow at all to keep the engine temp down. I'm going to pull the water pump off anyway, to check for that service bulletin collar. It was a cheap part so I preemptively ordered one from Westerbeke and have it here ready to go. They had no record of any contact with the PO, so it may never have been done.

Will look into all of Ken's suggestions as well, and listen around with the stethoscope.

I've become suspicious of the fuel lift pump. It occurred to me that I had some diesel leaking around it last winter, which I attributed to expansion/contraction of hose clamps and barbs, but perhaps the pump itself is leaking. I could imagine that causing an intermittent hissing, as it fights to maintain pressure. I think it could also cause the bogging of the engine under increased load as we turned up into the wind to raise the sails. Our tank was half full. We have an aftermarket lift pump that the PO had installed at some point after the original failed. Ours has never clicked, it produces more of a buzz. It's always provided sufficient pressure to prime the Racor and bleed the system though.
#17
Main Message Board / Re: M35B Hisssss
July 20, 2023, 08:31:46 AM
Quote from: KWKloeber on July 12, 2023, 10:27:34 AM
She has a "Stop Button"?

Why didn't you or the dock buddy use the methods told about to locate EXACTLY where the (pump?) noise and/or Rice Crispies were coming from?
Why wasn't the (pump?) noise isolated (and taken care of) before going out for four days?
Why hasn't the multitude of manuals been downloaded and throughly read that:
     1) shows every wire and electrical connection, and overcurrent device (ie, breaker, not fuse) on the 35B.
     2) what stops the 35B - it's not a tractor.
Ken, no, she does not have a "stop button", "hit the kill switch" was a colloquialism. Coral Wave has the stock stop lever, which isn't really a lever I suppose, it's a pull knob.

The noise has been present for the past two seasons (the hissing, not the Rice Krispies, that was brand new at the dock), and the engine has always run great until the alternator failure last month. So, we figured it was reasonable to go out for a weekend of sailing, and to continue the troubleshooting during the week. Honestly, I don't regret the decision at all. We had a great weekend, and the difficult weather on the day of the engine problem gave us a chance to test our selves and our procedures in a somewhat stressful situation, relatively close to home.
1-Every manual is on my phone an iPad, as well as in a binder on Coral Wave, and has been since purchase. The previous owner, like most folks on this forum has made electrical changes and upgrades, which are not in the manual, but SHOULD be in a owner-made wiring diagram. I've completed bits and pieces of said diagram, but there's still a lot to be mapped. I think the guy who suggested an arcing fuse was thinking an MRBF type fuse, or maybe something installed somewhere to protect a wire. I haven't located any around the engine, and the Rice Krispies noise was definitely not coming from the battery bank area.
2- I think he meant a fuel shutoff solenoid, which I'm fairly certain we don't have on our engines. It's just a lever that cuts fuel to the injector pump if I understand correctly.

Quote from: Ron Hill on July 12, 2023, 02:12:39 PM
Aaron : You definitely need to get that stethoscope and isolate where all that noise is coming from !! 
Your removal of the belt (and the noise continues) like you have said eliminates the internal coolant pump, raw water pump and the alternator. Also start sniffing around and find what is burning & where???

Magnetize your oil dipstick so when you run the engine next time the dipstick will act like a "chip detector".  When you pull it out you can examine it for metallic "chips"

A few thoughts 

Thanks Ron, a stethoscope has been purchased, now I just need a day and a friend to help troubleshoot. I'm a bit confused as to why you say the raw water pump can be eliminated as a source of the problem. It doesn't run off the belt. Am I missing something?

Good idea on magnetising the dipstick. I really really hope I don't find any chips.
#18
Quote from: pbyrne on July 05, 2023, 07:17:04 AM
My lovely wife and I were out in the Kingston area and anchored overnight in one of the recommended bays for first timers like us.

Kerr Bay by chance? We spent our first season with Coral Wave living aboard in the Kingston area. The weeds in that region are horrendous. One trick we heard from a few boaters in the area is to have a bread knife attached to a boat hook. You use it to saw off the weed balls as you haul the anchor up. Now on frigid Lake Superior weeds are never an issue. We do occasionally haul up entire trees though  :shock:
#19
Main Message Board / Re: M35B Hisssss
July 12, 2023, 08:15:03 AM
Well, we had a bit of an adventure this weekend. Four days out on the lake, with probably a total of about four or five hours of motoring. The engine appeared to be behaving itself, and making less odd noise than it had in a while.
Leaving the anchorage to return home on Monday, we turned into the wind to get the main up, and suddenly the engine started making a snap crackle pop sound, like Rice Krispies in milk. Kristina throttled down, to see if that changed anything, and the crackling and popping remained though its speed changed with the engine's. She Throttled back up, and the crackiling and popping sped up as well, then the engine started to bog as if dying, or seizing or something, so she hit the kill switch.
We sailed along slowly at 3 knots, calculating our 10 hour return trip home. Then the wind shut down. Completely. We bobbed around in the confused seas (from last night's thunder storm) for two hours, very slowly drifting further into Lake Superior. At least we were headed away from the shoals! After a couple hours, the first boat to be in our area came towards us to give us a tow into some wind, but they didn't need to. The wind arrived with them, and we were off slowly in a pleasant 8 knots of breeze. Then 15 knots... 20...25... After a couple hours we blasted through the gap in the break wall of Thunder Bay Harbour with nothing out but a sliver of headsail. No way we could be towed into our slip in this, so we anchored under sail, just outside the marina and waited for the wind to die. We were very thankful for our recent upgrade to a Rocna 20. There were no second chances on that anchoring job, as the only reasonable anchoring depths had us rather close to a lee shore. Anyway, a couple hours later the wind shut down again and we got towed into our slip.
At the dock we fired up the engine so a friend could give us some ideas. He was stumped, not a sound he'd heard before, but was leaning towards something like the injection pump, he didn't think it sounded like a bearing. We removed the belt, and the sound remained, so not the fresh water pump, which incidentally is still free spinning, as is the new alternator. Running the engine with the belt off for maybe a minute, there was suddenly a burning smell of some sort, almost electrical, or maybe plastic, so we shut the engine down again. Anyway, we're completely stumped, and the local marine diesel mechanic is backed up for the rest of the summer... I guess my next step is to take off the Sherwood and see how it feels, but this doesn't seem like water pump issues to me. Also, seems very unlikely that the alternator failure a couple weeks ago is just a coincidence. Must be something related to that, no? Some connected system? Someone suggested that the Rice Krispies could be a fuse arcing somewhere, another sailor suggested the kill switch, which is apparently some sort of energised magnet in an oil bath, which gets very hot. At least that is how it works on the tractor engines he's familiar with.
#20
Main Message Board / Re: M35B Hisssss
July 06, 2023, 01:46:57 PM
I sent an email to Gates, asking what their calculator is accounting for. We'll see if I get a response from them.
Quote from: KWKloeber on July 05, 2023, 09:13:27 PM
As you may know, Westerbekle has finally wised up and retired that G908 pump and replaced it with a proper "marine" BRONZE pump.
Ken, in my reading through the forum, I see that you were at one time selling modified Oberdorfer pumps? Is that something you are still doing? I think I may make the swap, even if just to reduce the pain of impeller changes. The Sherwood is 25 years old with 1360 hours on it, so it's probably not a bad idea. Maybe I'll get lucky and the hiss will go away with that change. Going to try the dowel to the ear method this weekend, to see if I can pinpoint the source regardless.
#21
Quote from: KWKloeber on July 05, 2023, 08:31:29 PM

Also, Wilson can tell you the voltage set point of each so you can pick the one that has the regulator set to the closest that you want.
Ken, I'd chosen to go that route because of your previous praise for the Wilson remans on other threads here.  I didn't realise that they could tell me the voltage set point . Are they able to tell that from the serial number? Like, would I be able to contact them with the serial number of the one I purchased and find out the set point? Obviously too late to do anything about it, but I'd be curious to know.
#22
Main Message Board / Re: M35B Hisssss
July 06, 2023, 06:39:06 AM
Quote from: Breakin Away on July 06, 2023, 05:57:17 AM
I guess one important question is what is the designed side-load limit (beyond which bearing failure is accelerated) for the water pump and alternator? If I knew those limits, I'd divide the lowest one by two (since side load = 2x tension*cos(belt angle)) and use that as the maximum allowable tension.
My thoughts exactly.  The side load limit would be the logical place to calculate belt tension from. I'm not sure why Universal/Kubota doesn't give this information, rather than "push the belt 1/2". Maybe there is some basic engineering rule based on bearing size and lever length?
#23
Main Message Board / Re: M35B Hisssss
July 06, 2023, 04:59:45 AM
Quote from: Breakin Away on July 05, 2023, 06:57:56 PM
I typically tighten to 60-70 lb on the Krikit gauge (measured at about the midpoint on the port side (between the main pulley and the alternator). The belt starts to wobble on the port side at around 40 lb.

Hmmm... Maybe I should have purchased the Krikit that goes from 50-150lbs then? I selected the 100-300lbs version based on the Marine How To article here: https://marinehowto.com/marine-alternator-installation-tips-tricks/ which is also the article that suggested using the Gates V-Belt Tension calculator. That's the calculator suggesting 85-115lbs for a 3/8 belt. Too me that feels way too tight. Has anyone been running at the calculator suggested ranges on this forum? I know the Krikit tool is popular among folks here.

Quote from: KWKloeber on July 05, 2023, 09:13:27 PM
As you may know, Westerbekle has finally wised up and retired that G908 pump and replaced it with a proper "marine" BRONZE pump.
I didn't realise the G908 had been superseded. Are folks still doing the Oberdorf swap then, or going with this new pump from Westerbeke? I also hadn't realised that the collar was to protect the camshaft from a seized water pump, I thought it was to protect the water pump from failing in the first place. Sounds like they were clearly aware the pump was an issue. What are the symptoms of a failing water pump(water flow is normal)? Is the sound in my video something anyone has experienced with the Sherwood? it does seem to be coming from that area...maybe. I wouldn't think a bearing would make an intermittent sound like that though; It sort of goes for 10-30 seconds, and then stops, and then cycles again. I mean, if the engine had done it for all the time I've had the boat, I would have assumed it was some sort of relief valve or something. But because the sound wasn't present for the first season of ownership, I know it's not normal.
#24
Quote from: Breakin Away on July 05, 2023, 07:01:43 PM
Could you post the model number? It might be handy to know if my alternator should fail in the future. Drop-in replacements are always good to know about.
[/quote]

It's a Wilson Reman 90-31-7001
#25
Main Message Board / Re: M35B Hisssss
July 05, 2023, 05:46:45 PM
My thinking is that it could have been an overtightened belt that eventually destroyed the alt bearing. So, I preemptively purchased a replacement fresh water pump from Kubota, to have as a spare, just in case. The bearing in the fresh water pump feels smooth when I spin it by hand though. With regards to belt tension, I purchased a Krikt, and the new belt is tensioned to about 100lbs, which feels a bit too tight to me, but the gates belt tension calculator on their website is indicating I should be at 130 lbs. that seems crazy tight. What is everyone else setting their 3/8 belts to on the krikt?
I suppose now would be as good a time as any to do the Oberdorf conversion. I feel a bit of play in the raw water pump shaft, but nothing leaking from the weep holes or anything. Could an issue with the raw water pump have anything to do with causing the alternator failure? I can't imagine it could, but maybe there's something I'm missing.
The PO had the copy of the Westerbeke service bulletin on his binder, and friends of his mentioned that he had done all the service bulletin work over the years, but it has been in the back of my mind. Maybe it never got done. Seems that the bulletin was updated at one point to indicate that Westerbeke had determined poor maintenance was the cause of the issues, not the missing collar. And I've got no signs of corrosion or anything around the weep holes.
#26
Main Message Board / M35B Hisssss
July 05, 2023, 03:25:52 PM
As mentioned in my recent thread regarding our alternator failure, Coral Wave's engine started producing an intermittent hissing sound about two seasons ago. When our alternator recently failed, I attributed the hissing to an early warning of that issue, however, the alternator has been replaced, and the hissing remains. It's really hard to say whether it sounds more like an air/fluid hiss, or a bearing hiss. My buddy who has spent his life on tractors gave it a listen, and thought it seemed to be coming from the area of the raw water pump (Sherwood) but he wasn't really sure. He also wondered if it could be the alternator cycling, as it is intermittent, almost like somethings switching off and on. I don't think it's the thermostat, as it happens within a minute or two of startup, while the engine is still cold. It does seem to happen less frequently as the engine warms up, but does still occur at operating temperature, and at all engine speeds. Anyway, I shot a little video, it may be a bit hard to pick out the change in sound but it happens around the 5 second mark in this video. In the video it sounds more like a sizzle than a hiss, but in person I'd say a hiss is the best description.
Anyone's 35's do this? https://www.youtube.com/shorts/u8Xkf4vmrjE
#27
Thanks for all the info and suggestions everyone. I was able to find essentially the same alternator as what I'd taken off, at a local shop. Based on the discussion here, I decided that was the logical way to go for now, with an upgrade to a larger, externally regulated alt in the near future. This one will become the backup. Interestingly, this new Mando claims 55 amps, while the old one claimed 50 amps. Other than that the only difference appears to be that they changed the tension bolt from a 1/2 inch to metric, which I only figured out after attempting to install it. Always another trip to the store! Anyway, got it installed a couple weeks ago, but due to other life issues was only able to go out for a little motor around the harbour after installation, and haven't been able to go sailing all month.
I had hoped that the weird hissing sound the engine developed over the past couple seasons was the early warning of the alternator failing, unfortunately that does not seem to be the case, as the hissing remains. I'll start a new thread about the hissing, with a video I took this week. Other than that, we're planning to head out cruising for the weekend, so fingers crossed the engine behaves, or even better, the winds behave and we don't need the engine! For a couple who are normally on the hook every weekend of the summer, this has been a rough month...
#28
Another question with regards to working on my wiring diagram. I'm thinking the simplest way to determine if the alternator has been run directly to the battery rather than the 1,2,B switch would be to put a DMM between the AO wire and engine ground, turn the switch off and check again? If it's run to the switch I should see similar voltage as at the switch selected battery bank, and with it off no voltage. If it's run straight to the house bank, I'll see no change with use of the switch. Is this correct and safe? I'm assuming the DMM provides sufficient resistance to do this. Currently with the alternator removed from the boat, I've got many wraps of 3M electrical tape around each cable terminal, but the thought of a dead short to the engine with these wires sitting loose as they are now is horrifying. I keep telling myself the electrical tape will do its job, but would feel better knowing the wires are either switched, or if direct to the battery, fused.
#29
Thanks guys. I'm going to bring the alternator over to a local shop today, but I have strong suspicion it is beyond a rebuild. But, it would be nice, as Breakin said, to avoid all those potential downstream issues that always crop up when changing out any part.
Quote from: Noah on June 07, 2023, 11:32:17 AM
You should be able to successfully run up to a 105A small case alternator with a 3/8 in. V-belt. I would recommend using an external regulator with temp sense snd set the alternator output derated downward approx. 10-25% for cooling efficiency.
I had seen in one of Main Sail's articles that the industry recommended maximum for 3/8 belts was 80A, but a more realistic recommendation accounting for imperfections in installation was 70A. Is it the derating done in the external regulator that allows the extra amperage with a smaller belt? I guess my biggest concern right now is trying to figure out a wiring diagram, to determine how all the various charging sources, and controllers interact on the boat. A lot was done by the PO, and I need to figure it out, to determine where I need to run larger whites for a larger alternator.
#30
Main Message Board / Completely seized alternator!
June 07, 2023, 09:30:02 AM
Out for a pleasant sail back from our weekend anchorage on Sunday, when the wind shut down and we had to fire up the Iron Genny. Over the course of a couple hours of motoring the intermittent hissing that I'd been attributing for the past two seasons to a slight leak at a fuel injector (a stitch in time...) gradually grew louder and more constant. Slowly the hiss started to sound less like a hiss, and more like grinding. Kristina went below deck to grab a beverage, and yelled up "It smells really weird down here". I went to check things out, and it sure smelt like burning rubber. I opened up the engine cover and just at that moment, the engine let out the most horrible squeal. Kristina quickly pulled the kill switch and we unfurled the headsail. Once back at the dock (thanks to a tow in from our slip neighbours) I pulled off the belt to try giving things a spin. The alternator is so frozen I couldn't even turn it with a wrench. Anyway, time for a new alternator, but I've got a few questions I want to run by you knowledgeable folks.

I'll give some info regarding usage and power needs, because I know it's important:
Our typical sailing is 3 weekends (Friday night to Monday morning) per month mid May to early Oct, with one 10 day trip during August. We have a house bank of 4 Trojan batteries wired for 12 volts and 460ish amp hours, installed by PO 2015. Solar = 123w rigid solar panel and 2 50w flexible solar panels, all over 10 years old, and the flexibles are questionable at best. We sail as much as we can, and keep motoring to a minimum. With North Western Ontario's long days, we're typically down 5-10 amp hours when we go to bed, and 30-50 when we wake up, depending how full the fridge is I guess. The alternator that failed is a 50 amp Mando, which seems likely to be original. The engine has 1360 hours on it.

Given the age of our batteries and panels, as well as our plans for longer cruising in a few years, I suspect a major electrical overhaul is in our future. That is not something I want to do now, in the middle of our short sailing season. So, while I know a large output, externally regulated alternator is the way to go, I'm thinking for now I'll go with a more simple swap, to get through the next season or two before everything else gets changed. So, I'm thinking an internally regulated unit with more amperage to run cooler, but still small enough that I don't need to start changing all my pullies. If I understand correctly, I should be able to get away with the current belt size on something up to about 75amps? Or, if I were to go for something around 100 amps, how much of a job is it to go up in belt size? I suspect I'd need to start changing wiring as well, to handle the increased current. Would that be the case with a 75ish amp alternator as well, and am I correct in thinking it is only the B+ cable that would need to be upgraded, or would all of the wires be carrying additional current? If so, it may make sense to stick with 50amps for now, though I suspect the undersized alternator relative to battery bank may have expedited this unit's demise.

Before installing the new alternator, are there any red flags I should look for in the rest of the system that may have caused the failure? I suppose I should check the batteries in case an issue with one of them could be to blame. Perhaps the belt has been too tight, in which case is there a way to determine if damage has been done to the water pump bearing? Anything thing else to check before I fry a new alternator?

Lastly, my understanding is that the B series engines have a bit of odd wiring, related to the oil pressure and ignition switch (if I recall). What do I need to look for in selecting a replacement alternator that will work here. The wiring on the old alternator includes two wires going to the exciter post, a wire going to an "S" post which I gather is battery voltage sense, but appears to be spliced to the (unmarked but I'm guessing) B+ post, and another wire going to the "P" post which seems to have something to do with the tach, though I don't understand what an alternator has to do with the tach, or what changing alternators will mean for my tach accuracy.

Thoughts and wisdom appreciated!