So it looks like the PO at some point replaced the alternator, but it has no markings so I don't know what it actually is or what it's rated for. What I do know is that there is a lot of belt dust which tells me it's out of alignment. It's a bit difficult to tell from these pics but I'm pretty sure the alternator needs to go slightly further aft. From what I can tell though the alternator bracket itself (bolted to front of engine) is flush with the engine with no shims. Therefore I can't see how it can slide any further aft. I think my 3 options are:
1) Change belts yearly and live with the dust (replacing one in pic with a Gates belt this week)
2) Replace the alternator with one that fits better ($$)
3) Have someone machine a custom bracket that allows the alternator to be positioned aft ($$) - There is a hose just under the tension bracket that could make this tricky.
Are these my only options or am I missing something?
note: will use straight edge against the pulleys to determine actually how far out of alignment
Thanks!
Bryan
Better image
With my usual caveat about "eyes and hands on" it looks like the alt may need to be cocked a bit instead of wholesale moved aft?
Make sure the mount bolts are the correct ones - see the 101 on the Westerbeke bracket/incorrect bolts.
Worse come worse, you could shave a bit off the rear of the foot and shim the front.
Send pix w/ straight edge.
The model no. should be stamped into the frame, and/or a tag with the reg no. on the back. Have you had it off?
Change to a Dayco TOP COG belt.
AGAIN!!
-k
K,
I have not had it off yet. I have read the post about the incorrect bolts, but didn't factor that in. You might be on to something but yes, I need to put a straight edge on to be sure. As soon as I do I will post back.
B
Bryan,
Are we referencing the same issue and Tips?
Universal M-25 & M25XP Alternator Bracket Upgrade & Alignment 101 IMPORTANT
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,7917.0.html
If so, perhaps your three options have a fourth solution: move the bracket on the side of the manifold.
A front view picture would help, too.
Let us know.
Quote from: Stu Jackson on June 18, 2018, 05:33:38 PM
move the bracket on the side of the manifold.
Stu,
If the bracket is bolted tight to the water flange as Bryan's is, then he can't slide the bracket/Alt aft (as he wants to) only forward (with shims then installed.)
(http://a4.pbase.com/g9/84/622984/3/141029508.XIWjrxuJ.jpg)
pic courtesy mainesail
-k
Quote from: NewToTheRoad on June 18, 2018, 09:59:43 AM>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
It's a bit difficult to tell from these pics but I'm pretty sure the alternator needs to go slightly further aft.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Therefore I can't see how it can slide any further aft. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Can we tell how I failed Reading Comprehension 101?!? :clap
Sorry about that. I'd still like to see a photo from the front.
Seems we agree on the source.
Stu
I messed a little with Bryan's photo.
If (big if) there's minimal distortion in it, it appears that the Alt needs to move aft about 1/3 the width of the belt. There's only 0.15 degrees difference (statistically insignificant; basically they are parallel) between the water pump pulley (dashed line) and Alt pulley (dot-dot-dash line), so (contrary to my post below) it appears the Alt is not simply cocked CCW a bit. Still, I'd verify that the correct bolts were used and is shimmed correctly, before attempting to move it backward.
All this is very rough because there is no doubt distortion in the photo view.
-k
Guys : The only way to really tell alignment is to put a straight edge on the lower engine drive pully to the alternator pully. Then play with thick/thin washers on the alternator/bracket until the straight edges match!
Easier to try that first than modifying the alternator case or the bracket itself!!
A thought
Quote from: Ron Hill on June 19, 2018, 11:42:48 AM
Then play with thick/thin washers on the alternator/bracket until the straight edges match!
Ron,
I know of no way to move the alt backward by shimming. If shims are placed to "cock" the alt so the pulley sits farther aft, then the bracket won't sit flat against the exhaust manifold.
Is there another way besides shaving some off the back of the foot of the alt, and shimming behind the front lug on the bracket?
-ken
Quote from: NewToTheRoad on June 18, 2018, 10:18:00 AM
Better image
from this pic (and it's risky to put everything on a single pic) it appears that eh alternator is out of alignment with the port side being further forward than the stbd side of the alternator, hence the gap shown on the alt pulley.
Accepting that when the belt is tightened, it would have a tendency to cause that gap, the other cause of the alternator being out of alignment like that could be the bolt being too thin.
Paul
Paul
That's what I initially concluded also. But, when I split the pulley grooves in half, and extended a line across the pulley half, to the other pulley, the two pulleys appear to be in parallel (well, within 0.15 degree anyway.) I also did the same, projecting lines across the face of each pulley and got similar results. Naturally, there's the inherent limitation of distortion due to the focal point being, well, a "point" as it were, rather than a parallel panorama. So, I'm not hanging any hats on that. The metal straightedge will tell the tale!
-k
When I thought my alternator was out of alignment and needed to be moved aft, here's what I considered.
On Eximius, the bolt supporting the alternator passes through the tongue of the mounting bracket and then through the alternator then through a spacer and then the rear tongue of the bracket.
I considered having a new spacer manufactured about 1/16" shorter and then using one or more thin washers in front of the alternator tongue effectively moving the alternator aft by the thickness of the thin washers. Additional washers would be needed aft of the new spacer in order to ensure no compression stress is applied between the alternator mounting bracket tongues.
ie. Original setup: Bolt | Mounting Bracket | Alternator Tongue | Spacer | Mounting Bracket | Nut & Lock Washer
ie. Alternative Setup: Bolt | Mounting Bracket | thin washers | Alternator Tongue | New Spacer | thin washers | Mounting Bracket | Nut & Lock Washer
As it happens, the alternator was in alignment.
Paul
I apologize but apparently I wasn't receiving updates that there have been replies. Thanks everyone for the input.
Here's an update -
I went to change the belt and for the life of me couldn't get the alternator to pivot. As a result I was forced to remove the pivot bolt and drop the alternator to get the old belt off. What I found was that the boatyard, just prior to me purchasing, installed a too small belt of 40". This turned out to be a good thing though as it forced me to stop being a wimp (no exp working on engines) and just take the darn thing off. What I found was what you all have been hypothesizing - it looks like I have the SAE bolt. For the time being I reinstalled it with a Gates 7410 belt. The alternator now easily pivots out and just shy of the door. There is a lot of side to side play though, so I picked up an M10 100mm bolt and will install this weekend. With the undersized belt the alternator was jammed against the engine and probably cocked a bit due to the bolt size so that could explain a lot of the misalignment. It looks better with the new belt but I want to get the new bolt in before I report back.
Note: I want to do the straight edge test but it looks to me that the pulley on the alternator is thicker than the pulley on on the engine. So, I imagine I will need to account for that offset, meaning that the straight edge perfectly flat against both pulleys would mean out of alignment by the difference in thickness. Right?
I have been also experiencing an issue this season where I have been hitting the start button, after 20-25 sec glow plug warming, and just get a click down below. No chug chug of the engine turning over like usual. If I go through the sequence 2 or 3 times more she then turns over. Didn't do this last season. Based on my research here I will start by assessing\cleaning the ground wire on the engine after I drop the alternator to change the bolt. It should be more easily accessible without the alternator in the way. I also read where the starter might need cleaning but I will start with the wiring assessment and move from there.
Thanks again everyone! You all, and this site, as usual are invaluable.
Bryan
Just clamp a spacer to the crank, such as a short piece of 1/4" thick aluminum to account for the alt pulley thickness. The distance from the straight edge to the edge of the belt should be identical at both ends.
Quote from: NewToTheRoad on June 22, 2018, 06:27:06 AM
I have been also experiencing an issue this season where I have been hitting the start button, after 20-25 sec glow plug warming, and just get a click down below. No chug chug of the engine turning over like usual. If I go through the sequence 2 or 3 times more she then turns over. Didn't do this last season.
Definitely check your ground wire and all connections. Also, don't press the start button while glow plugs are still heating. It sucks a lot of juice from the battery. Let the glow plug momentary switch go for about 3-5 seconds then hit the start button.
Regarding starting issues - I cleaned ground to engine and and then power wires to starter. I've test started a few times since then. So far, so good, but the jury is still out. Regarding letting the key go, If I do that nothing ever happens when I push the start button. I need to push it before the spring backs off on it.
Regarding the alternator, I put a straight edge on it over the weekend. Between that difference and difference in pulley thickness I believe it would have to go back about .2 inches. I can't see how that is possible. Pics are attached. The last pic is a closeup of the alternator pulley and how the belt appears askew.
Bryan
I wish you had pics of the straightedge on the crank pulley lining up to the alt pulley showing how one hits the other.
Were the two pulley faces parallel?
The better pic looks to me that the Alt is cocked (which was my first impression, first photos.)
If it is cocked, how much did the straightedge run out, one plane compared to the other plane (the angle between them, not the displacement fwd/aft.)
k
K,
I'm not sure exactly what you mean. I laid the straight edge flat on the outside of the crank pulley and angled up toward the alternator pulley. The top pic is where the straight edge hits the alternator pulley. So, from the straight edge, the outside of crank pulley is at least 1/8" closer to the engine than the inside edge of the alternator pulley.
Bryan
Bryan : The straight edge should sit flat(both edges of the pulley) on the crank pulley and also sit flat (both edges of the pulley) on the alternator pulley. That's perfect alignment.
A thought
The alt. Bracket looks bent. I've seen this on one other 34.
Ron,
Exactly, and therein lies the problem. If the alternator bracket could move aft then the straight edge would be flush against it's pulley. However, there`s no way it can move aft.
Bryan
Bryan
The faces of both pulleys have to be parallel.
As MaineSail described you need to space out the straight edge if needed so that when it's extended from the one face to the face of the other pulley you can measure or see visually if the two faces are in parallel. It looks from the pic that they are not in parallel (the alt is cocked). Then measure from the spaced out straightedge to the center of each belt. That is the offset distance, but the faces also need to be parallel.
So your straightedge hitting the other pulley doesn't mean anything unless you have already determined that the two pulleys are parallel. ie, your pic shows the relationship at only one point (the nearest edge of the alt pulley.) Where does the extended line fall at the other side of the pulley?
-ken
Understood. I will take another look.
Bryan
You might not be able to move it aft. You may need to move the alt aft in relation to the bracket. Someone may have bent the bracket so that is comes closer the the belt riding correctly, than the pulleys being parallel and the alt pulley being 3/4" in front of the crank pulley.
-k
Bryan just to visualize what I was trying to verbalize (probably not well) I extended where the edge of the belt should fall on each pulley, and you can see that they are not in parallel. Depending about which point stays fized and the alt gets rotated about, it may need to move aft more like 1/2 inch.
My guess is that either/or/all.
The foot bolt diameter is soo small, letting the foot be cocked in the bracket and/or the alt foot.
The bracket is bent or misaligned when it was welded.
The foot may be the wrong size for the application.
-k
The foot bolt is definitely undersized but the M10 didn't fit so I still need to drill out the alternator a bit to get it in. In the interim I will take the belt and tension off, utilizing the play in the existing bolt, to see if I can manually move the alt pulley into a parallel position (verified by straight edge). If so then that solves one part of the riddle.
Take the bracket off and straighten it with a BFH.
Big F'n hammer? :thumb:
Bryan : Any machine shop that has a hydraulic press can bend that bracket. I wouldn't try using a hammer.
Your problem is to measure and determine that angle - so you know how much to bend!!!
A thought
Brian,
I had a similar problem with my alt bracket. I placed a metal straight edge across the pulley faces and determined that the alt needed to move aft 1/4''. Since there were no shims used between the bracket and the front of the engine there was no way to slide the bracket further aft on the engine. I took the bracket to a machine shop and had them cut off the alt mounting ears and weld them 1/4" further aft on the bracket. This fixed my alignment problem. I also had the SAE bolt and swapped it with the metric bolt and had to drill out the alt a little to use it.
Quote from: pablosgirl on June 29, 2018, 04:27:50 AM
I took the bracket to a machine shop and had them cut off the alt mounting ears and weld them 1/4" further aft on the bracket. This fixed my alignment problem. I also had the SAE bolt and swapped it with the metric bolt and had to drill out the alt a little to use it.
As i said in the beginning, it's easiest to file off a little of the foor to move it backward and shim the front of the foot. The alternator is dedicated to the boat, so it's not like it's going to be pulled and swapped to another bracket sometime. If it's only 1/4" off a 2" foot, no problem, I wouldn't recommend that if there was a significant loss of the foot width. Along with that, IIWMA, I'd epoxy the shims to the front of the foot; essentially swapping the material and bolt support from back to front. The other thing to look at is, is there something wrong with the pulley?
Also, change to the Dayco Top Cog belt for the best wear characteristics.
-k
Has anyone come to any conclusion as to how close is close enough? I used aluminum angle as a straight edge clamped to the crank pulley. I measured using feeler gauges between belt and straight edge. What's good enough? Or asked another way, what's the smallest shim you'd mess with to get the two parallel planes closer?
And, as far as the two pulley's being parallel, what's close enough to parallel?
Perfection is always my goal, but I'm wondering where diminishing returns sets in?
I guess the true measure is belt dust/life while it's running?
https://marinehowto.com/marine-alternator-installation-tips-tricks/ (https://marinehowto.com/marine-alternator-installation-tips-tricks/)
New article... thanks, Mainesail!
Mike : I used a stainless 18" ruler as my straight edge. Can't remember where I got it from - maybe Harbor Freight? or Sears tools?
A thought
I'm happy enough with my aluminum stock straight edge... but I'm still wondering how good is good enough. :)
As close as you can measure using a steel ruler, forget feeler gauges (unless you just WANT to be OCD about it.)
Me, OCD?! :shock: :D 8)
Mike : I was able to get my alignment "right ON"!! " How good is good enough" ?
How much belt wear are you willing to tolerate???????
My thought
Quote from: rmbrown on November 28, 2018, 01:55:13 PM
https://marinehowto.com/marine-alternator-installation-tips-tricks/ (https://marinehowto.com/marine-alternator-installation-tips-tricks/)
New article... thanks, Mainesail!
Wow thanks..! That was fast too, I had only published it about 10 minutes before that!