I’m thinking about replacing my current 51 AMP alternator. I'm looking for current recommendations for my specific use case and boat setup for cruising in the PNW. There's a lot of motoring around in the mid-summer months in this area.
This summer our main vacation will be another 2 week trip to the San Juan Islands and surrounding areas. Our favorite places to go are state parks and anchorages with no facilities and obviously no shore power. We do a lot of island hopping with 1-4 hour runs between each stop and stay for 1-2 nights at each one. We get pretty close to the 50% SOC at times and plan our trip so we aren’t away from shore power for more than 3-4 nights at a time due mostly to battery requirements.
The following summer of 2019 we'll be spending about 3 weeks traveling further north into Desolation Sound and will definitely want some more independence from shore power. I could see us occasionally running the engine at anchor for a few hours a day to extend our time at a particular anchorage.
Objective
- Stay out longer than 3-4 nights away from shore power
- Quicker and more efficient battery charging from the alternator
- Easy swap out install of the alternator (same foot print and dimensions)
- Keep the budget in check
Battery Usage Overview
- 90-95% of consumption is simply running the fridge
House Bank (under settee in front of the sink)
- 4 x 6v Golf Cart Batteries
- Duracell (BatteriesPlus) #SLIGC115
- Total Capacity = 460 Ah
Reserve Bank (under port settee)
- 1 x 12v Starting Battery
- Duracell (BatteriesPlus) #SLI48H6M
- Capacity = 70Ah
Current Engine and Alternator Setup
- Universal M25 Motor
- Prestolite 51 AMP 8MR2049K w/built-in regulator
- Alternator output wired to the house bank
- ACR between house bank and reserve bank
Plan Options
- Option 1: Install a Leece-Neville alternator with an adjustable internal regulator
- Option 2: Install an alternator with a Balmar (MC-614) external regulator
A Few Questions
- Would a 90 amp Leece-Neville alternator with an adjustable internal regulator work well for my use?
- AND/OR - Would adding a Balmar MC-614 external regulator be worth the cost for my given use?
- What kind of outputs could I realistically expect to get out of 70, 90, and a 100 amp alternators paired with an external smart regulator in the bulk charge phase?
- On the other hand, what kind of output could I realistically get from 70, 90, and a 100 amp alternators with a built-in yet adjustable regulator?
- What part#'s would I be the best fit for my engine/boat?
- Any recommendations on where to buy from?
PS: Before our trip last year I upgraded much of the boats electrical system. What a huge improvement that has been. Big shout out to Stu, Mainsail, and many others for all the great info that's been shared regarding electrical upgrades.
Quote from: Sailing48N on February 06, 2018, 11:03:20 AM
1. and plan our trip so we aren't away from shore power for more than 3-4 nights at a time due mostly to battery requirements.
2. - Stay out longer than 3-4 nights away from shore power
3. - Quicker and more efficient battery charging from the alternator
4. Install a Leece-Neville alternator with an adjustable internal regulator OR Install an alternator with a Balmar (MC-614) external regulator
5. Would a 90 amp Leece-Neville alternator with an adjustable internal regulator work well for my use? AND/OR - Would adding a Balmar MC-614 external regulator be worth the cost for my given use?
6. What kind of outputs could I realistically expect to get out of 70, 90, and a 100 amp alternators paired with an external smart regulator in the bulk charge phase? OR - On the other hand, what kind of output could I realistically get from 70, 90, and a 100 amp alternators with a
1. That's reality: steadily diminishing law of returns where use exceeds input ability.
2. Increase input charging. For your plans, both a larger alternator AND solar would do it. See #6.
3. Quicker means larger for bulk charging, not necessarily "efficiency."
4. There is a discussion in the Electrical 101 about the differences between internal and external regulation by Maine Sail. [How Alternators & Regulators Work PLUS External vs. Internal Regulators (by Maine Sail): http://forums.sbo.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=125392] The differences are not that great in bulk due to battery acceptance. However, most have concluded that the ability of the programming options of an MC-614 permits more user "efficiency."
5. Don't bother with an external regulator on your OEM alternator, you'll just burn it up.
6. "...built-in yet adjustable regulator?" is not realistic. All you'd be able to do would be to change the single output voltage. The external regulator gets you to adjust the voltage outputs for all phases of charging and their times (duration). My experience is that you can get "TO" the acceptance amperage of a reasonable size house bank like yours, when depleted about 50% SOC. Mine is 390 ah and I get 75A out of my 100A alternator with an MC-612, for albeit a small amount of time at the start of bulk.
A good source for LN alternators is:
http://www.ase-supply.com/Leece_Neville_110_603_12V_90_amp_ALTERNATOR_p/mo-110-603.htm
Your issue is not unique, it's one we all faced. One partial solution is solar. Motoring as much as we do "up here" always helps, and getting almost twice out of an alternator, which it would with a nominal 100A alternator, would really help, compared to the OEM. BTDT.
The end result, given a known daily load such as yours, is "How often do I have to run my engine to charge if I have nothing else?" Bigger alternator without solar would help a great deal.
Jim Moe's old but still relevant article in the wiki electrical discusses this in great detail.
Electrical system upgrade: A comprehensive electrical system upgrade by Jim Moe
http://c34.org/wikiwp/?rdp_we_resource=http%3A%2F%2Fc34.org%2Fwiki%2Findex.php%3Ftitle%3DCatalina_34_Electrical_System_Upgrade
A 90 or 100A alternator would work very well for you. Read also the Small Engine Mode discussions in Electrical 101.
Good luck, great question, well put and presented.
Quote from: Sailing48N on February 06, 2018, 11:03:20 AM
There's a lot of motoring around in the mid-summer months in this area.
It all depends upon what "a lot of motoring is".. Flooded GC2 batteries really need upwards of 14.7V - 14.8V, temp compensated to 80F, in order to properly charge and keep sulfation at bay. Running a straight up dumb regulator with no possibility of float means a compromise voltage of 14.2V to 14.4V would be necessary, if you do "long runs"... A smart regulator will give you healthier charging but GC2 batteries are also rather in-expensive..
Quote from: Sailing48N on February 06, 2018, 11:03:20 AMWe get pretty close to the 50% SOC at times and plan our trip so we aren't away from shore power for more than 3-4 nights at a time due mostly to battery requirements.
This is extremely frustrating & sad to hear. To solve this set you boat up to go cruising,
not RVing where you need to depend upon shore power. We have not plugged our sail boats into shore power, unless it is physically in our yard, in the last 33 years of cruising. Marina's wreck the whole idea of "getting away"...
Quote from: Sailing48N on February 06, 2018, 11:03:20 AMThe following summer of 2019 we'll be spending about 3 weeks traveling further north into Desolation Sound and will definitely want some more independence from shore power. I could see us occasionally running the engine at anchor for a few hours a day to extend our time at a particular anchorage.
Objective
- Stay out longer than 3-4 nights away from shore power
- Quicker and more efficient battery charging from the alternator
- Easy swap out install of the alternator (same foot print and dimensions)
- Keep the budget in check
Battery Usage Overview
- 90-95% of consumption is simply running the fridge
House Bank (under settee in front of the sink)
- 4 x 6v Golf Cart Batteries
- Duracell (BatteriesPlus) #SLIGC115
- Total Capacity = 460 Ah
Reserve Bank (under port settee)
- 1 x 12v Starting Battery
- Duracell (BatteriesPlus) #SLI48H6M
- Capacity = 70Ah
Current Engine and Alternator Setup
- Universal M25 Motor
- Prestolite 51 AMP 8MR2049K w/built-in regulator
- Alternator output wired to the house bank
- ACR between house bank and reserve bank
Plan Options
- Option 1: Install a Leece-Neville alternator with an adjustable internal regulator
- Option 2: Install an alternator with a Balmar (MC-614) external regulator
Option 1
can work but is less than "optimal" due to where voltage will need to be set as a compromise. It is also sub optimal from voltage sensing point of view. It can also lead to burned out alternators if you bank is too big and bulk lasts too long. The stock alternator has no way of protecting itself from over-temp other than poor voltage sensing. Also at 90A you're right at the limit of a 3/8" belt and with no way to limit the alternator output current belt dust will be a reality. It also pretty much rules out the 105A version.
Quote from: Sailing48N on February 06, 2018, 11:03:20 AMA Few Questions
- Would a 90 amp Leece-Neville alternator with an adjustable internal regulator work well for my use?
Yes it can work but you need to keep in mind all of the above that was mentioned.
Quote from: Sailing48N on February 06, 2018, 11:03:20 AM- AND/OR - Would adding a Balmar MC-614 external regulator be worth the cost for my given use?
If you want optimal charging performance, temp compensation for both the alt and batteries, a way to limit the belt load, soft start up, full custom programming for the right charge settings, a way to shut down the reg should you need extra power etc. then an external Balmar regulator is an excellent choice. Don't discount the ARS-5 if budget is real tight. It does almost everything the MC-614H does for about $30.00 -$40.00 less..
Quote from: Sailing48N on February 06, 2018, 11:03:20 AM- What kind of outputs could I realistically expect to get out of 70, 90, and a 100 amp alternators paired with an external smart regulator in the bulk charge phase?
- On the other hand, what kind of output could I realistically get from 70, 90, and a 100 amp alternators with a built-in yet adjustable regulator?
The real question is what "should you get out of" one of these alternators. Bulk is bulk. Both regulators will push the alt to max output during bulk. Bulk will end when
sensed voltage hits the limit.
Alternators & Voltage Sensing: https://marinehowto.com/alternators-voltage-sensing/ (https://marinehowto.com/alternators-voltage-sensing/)
The Balmar regulator
should be set to be pushing to a higher voltage and will be sensing voltage at the battery so bulk will last longer with the Balmar and more energy can be returned to the bank in a shorter time. The Balmar also allows you to custom tailor the output "derate it" so as not to over load the belt and it also allows for the alternator to run significantly cooler and thus last longer. I like to see these run at belt load manager level 3-6 depending upon the installation and average engine room temps.
Quote from: Sailing48N on February 06, 2018, 11:03:20 AM- What part#'s would I be the best fit for my engine/boat?
You'd want one of the 90A or 105A units. If sticking with the internal 8RG2043 regulator then you'll not want to exceed the 90A unit. Be aware that these don't come with a pulley nor the fit kit to make the 1" foot a 2" foot. The factory stamped steel-pulley is really pretty horrible in high load applications and as it heats up it expands and leads to slippage. Most of these use a 5/8" shaft which is not a standard shaft diameter. The make one 2" foot 90A model that is metric but finding a pulley to fit those is even harder without machining..
Quote from: Sailing48N on February 06, 2018, 11:03:20 AM- Any recommendations on where to buy from?
Seeing as you give me a "
shout out" below why not support one of the guys who helps support this fine forum? :thumb:
MarineHowTo.com - Alternators & Regulators https://shop.marinehowto.com/t/alternators--regulators (https://shop.marinehowto.com/t/alternators--regulators)
If you don't see it in the store just ask, there is nothing I don't have access to.
Quote from: Sailing48N on February 06, 2018, 11:03:20 AMBig shout out to Stu, Mainsail, and many others for all the great info that's been shared regarding electrical upgrades.
P.S. One word - Solar :wink:
Hi mainesail - Is the Universal/Westerbeke 105A Externally Regulated Alternator listed on your website a replacement for a Leece-Neville 8MR2401UA that has the 8MR external regulation conversion kit added to it?
You guys are great!
After my initial research and reading, I was pretty much sold on getting the Balmer MC-614 external regulator. I just wasn't sure what alternator to pair with it. In my search to find info on what alternators would best fit my M25 I started seeing and reading some posts about how external regulators might be overkill on a sailboat. I began second guessing that decision.
Quote from: mainesail on October 29, 2012, 06:03:39 PM
Quote from: John Langford on October 29, 2012, 12:02:00 PM
Thanks Mainesail for that very helpful assessment. I really appreciate the time you take with issues like this.
Sterling produced an even simpler three stage regulator without a fan (the AR12VD) but I am not sure if it is still available or if it would work for my setup. I am looking for the simplest 3 stage regulation of a Leece Neville 105amp alternator charging 4 T-105s which I never run down below 50%. My 1999 Heart In Charge regulator is still working but I am trying to settle on a satisfactory replacement in advance of the inevitable day when the Heart unit will fail.
BTW, my Heart unit has been installed high up in my 1999 C34 Mk II engine compartment for over a decade and the heat (engine runs at 160 degrees) doesn't appear to have affected it so far. I don't know if it has proven to be as vulnerable to heat as the Balmar MC-614.
Why do you feel you need a three stage regulator? Bulk and absorption, in most cases, are more than adequate. With the Leece-Neville the reg is adjustable so set it for 14.4 -14.6 and call it a day. If you need float on a sail boat perhaps its time for a trawler cause you're running the engine a LOT.... :D
Quote from: mainesail on October 30, 2012, 04:33:17 AM
Even for a "long time", on a sailboat, which is not a "long time" 14.4V to 14.6V is perfectly adequate. Keep in mind the hundreds of millions of vehicles, busses, tractors, industrial equipment and 18 wheelers out there running simple dual stage regs and pushing 14.4v - 14.6V all day long. :thumb:
I just don't see a need for a float stage on sailboat alternators. Chargers left permanently connected, yes, alternators on trawlers, sure, sailboats sure, if you never sail..
This stage is perhaps the number one cause of undercharging on sailboats because nearly all of these regs go into float far to early and well before the bank is at 98% SOC....
(I read a few more posts/topics like these but can't find them now.)
I know I would prefer to have the Balmer MC-614 and the ability to program it for optimum control and output efficiency from an upgraded alternator. I'm still leaning heavily in that direction. However, the question remains and is what I keep asking myself; is it the best use of somewhere around an additional $350? Would that be better spent elsewhere on boat upgrades/projects? My list is VERY long and of course always longer than my set budget goals.
Getting from 50-85% SOC is all I'm really shooting for with the alternator. I know it will be more efficient using a Balmar external regulator. But how much more so?
--------------------------------------------------------
Hypothetical Comparison:90 amp alternator with an internal semi-dumb regulator set at around 14.4-14.6 vs. 105 amp alternator with a smart regulator (Balmar MC-614) with the recommended advanced settings (including depowering the output as suggested).
Who much difference in engine run time would I realistically be able to see in order to put back in the 160 Ah or so to get from 50-85% SOC?
--------------------------------------------------------
On somewhat of a side note - I will add the ability to engage "small engine mode" either way.
As far as solar goes... Solar would be GREAT!!! I'd love to have it right now! However, adding solar would be an additional $1,000+ in my estimation for what I'd like to add and I don't have a good place to install the panels just yet. I would like to add a dodger and bimini down the road but currently my topside is bare. That's another high dollar upgrade that is on my list at some point and would come first before adding solar.
@Stu - Just out of curiosity, now that you are in the PNW, what kind of performance are you getting out of your solar system and what setup are you using?
Quote from: Jon W on February 08, 2018, 10:38:32 AM
Hi mainesail - Is the Universal/Westerbeke 105A Externally Regulated Alternator listed on your website a replacement for a Leece-Neville 8MR2401UA that has the 8MR external regulation conversion kit added to it?
Yes it is. I can't call it a Leece-Neville because I build it here using Leece and other carefully chosen components. Legally, even if I start with an 8MR2401UA, when I remove the regulator, and convert it to external, I still can't call it a Leece-Neville 8MR2401UA because it no longer is.
LN's pricing is too steep for a complete unit for me to hit the price point I wanted in a "ready to run" ER unit. The price you may find on a 105A LN is often only a few % over actual cost, then it has to ship here and be tweaked and then I have a pile of regulators I paid for but not using. By
ready to run I mean ER conversion, custom made billet machined pulley (not cheap stamped steel), high copper content brushes, the fit kit etc. are all included in that price.
I am working hard on the ER kits because LN has discontinued them. Problem is I am getting prices of $30.00 each, my cost, just for the aluminum casting and that is with a quantity of 150 at a pop, not powder coated.. I still need the gasket and parts on top of that. LN was building these in China.... Unless you find an ER kit on eBay I believe I am the only one with ER kits available and what I have left are being used for complete units.
If you'll notice I'm now offering an 8MR 90A replacement alternator built on a Delco platform (custom frame castings with 8MR dimensions) because I don't know if I will be successful in getting the 8MR ER kits at a price that makes building 8MR's worthwhile once the kits I have in stock are gone. It's not quite the same as an 8MR, not spark protected, but I build them very beefy.
Quote from: Sailing48N on February 08, 2018, 12:45:14 PM
Hypothetical Comparison:
90 amp alternator with an internal semi-dumb regulator set at around 14.4-14.6 vs. 105 amp alternator with a smart regulator (Balmar MC-614) with the recommended advanced settings (including depowering the output as suggested).
Who much difference in engine run time would I realistically be able to see in order to put back in the 160 Ah or so to get from 50-85% SOC?
Your current limit is the belt, the 90A with internal reg will wind up working harder in bulk than the 105A would using Belt Manager. It will thus not last as long as a 105A unit that is temp protected. Both will work.
Quote from: Sailing48N on February 08, 2018, 12:45:14 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
@Stu - Just out of curiosity, now that you are in the PNW, what kind of performance are you getting out of your solar system and what setup are you using?
I do NOT have solar, except for a small 11W panel I used to maintain my house bank when I was away from the boat for a couple of months in 2016.
You are "caught" in a classic situation. You have a design goal. You currently do not have the alternator output to match that goal.
You may have seen this: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5599.msg35004.html#msg35004 (http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5599.msg35004.html#msg35004) Forget about the first part (you've done that), but read the
italic section. That describes your current situation: that steadily diminishing law of returns.
The reality is the choice of the "use of the available technology" --- external vs. internal regulation.
Another approach is to look at it this way: you won't be motoring every day. Those days NOT motoring will require you to run the engine for as short a time as possible to put as much back into the house bank as you can, even if you are willing to work the 50-85% route.
The tapering amperage from a single output voltage from a internally regulated alternator may not produce as much current as you could obtain from the programming available with an external regulator for those days on the hook. Battery sensing is available with external regulators, so that the target voltage at the bank is being achieved.
It may not make as much difference on those days that you are motoring.
There is also a link to Maine Sail's article about the difference between the AR-5 and MC-614 regulators in the Electrical System 101 topic.
I think I've made my decision. I'll probably go with the "Universal/Westerbeke 105A Externally Regulated Alternator" with the MC-614 from mainesail. Now I just need to convince the Admiral.
With the 105A what belt manager setting would you recommend? I'm guessing 4.
Quote from: Sailing48N on February 09, 2018, 04:29:24 PM
I think I've made my decision. I'll probably go with the "Universal/Westerbeke 105A Externally Regulated Alternator" with the MC-614 from mainesail. Now I just need to convince the Admiral.
With the 105A what belt manager setting would you recommend? I'm guessing 4.
Good choices. Good luck. :D
You may, Russell, be getting ahead of yourself. The "dial back" will depend on the state of your house bank. The lower it is the more the acceptance.
There is also the Small Engine Mode, discussed in detail in Elec. 101. It's easier to do, and, as Maine Sail notes, he sometimes does both.
It's an operational issue.
I know there's quite a few settings to dial in, but I was specifically thinking about the Belt Manager max setting I could use and still keep the 3/8" belt from disintegrating.
Hi Russel,
I would defiantly go with an external regulator on any alternator you buy as both Mainesail and Stu suggest. I tried the cheap route using the internal regulator of the 90A LN when we went cruising to the Bahamas for 8 months and ended up melting the alternator 6 months into the trip. The internal regulator programming is very simple with no over temp protection for the alternator. The problem as explained by Mainesail is that given the large battery bank size (~400AH), the LN will overheat while blindly delivering full output for 1-2 hours to bring the battery bank to 80% charge. These alternators where not designed for this type of duty. As Mainesail has said in his excellent articles, the LN will work with an external regulator that has alternator temperature protection as the Balmar AR-5 and the MC-614 regulators do. I have since replace the LN with a new one and added an AR-5 external regulator. We did see a fair amount of belt dust from using the higher output alternator. Bring spare belts, we had a new belt fail 100 hours into the trip and replaced it which lasted the rest of the trip. Keep your old Motorola as a spare. We did and it saved our bacon when we burnt up the LN in the Bahamas and did not want to pay the exorbitant rate to replace it there.
Also, I would diffidently move adding solar higher up on the priority list! Having to run the engine 2 hours a day to keep the fridge alive got old. Especially when we were tucked into a quiet anchorage for days at a time. I wish that we had spent the $1000 on solar instead of the Yamaha 2K generator we bought for the trip.
Paul
Quote from: Sailing48N on February 09, 2018, 08:45:19 PM
I know there's quite a few settings to dial in, but I was specifically thinking about the Belt Manager max setting I could use and still keep the 3/8" belt from disintegrating.
I have a 100A alternator with a 390 ah house bank. I run a 3/8" belt with Small Engine Mode (manually) at startup after a night or two on the hook, and do not use belt manager.
The variables are bank SOC, and, therefore, acceptance, and engine rpms.
This topic discusses the reasoning about belt squeal/slippage and maximizing the alternator output (AO), as well as acceptance for nominal 400 ah banks at 50% SOC:
Alternator heat, Regulator Controls, Small Engine Mode
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4454.0.html (http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4454.0.html)
Somewhere else on the internet, perhaps on sbo, Maine Sail advised what he uses. IIRC, it's somewhere about 70% (derate it 30%) on belt manager if you choose to use it. His Internal vs. External Regulator link discusses other issues, doesn't include a %.
Add to this the use of the battery temperature sensor, and the alternator temperature sensor (which is connected to the small engine mode taps on the MC-series regulators) which reduces the AO automatically, and you'll see that there are many variables in play, making a specific number for the belt manager something one usually works out in the field on their own boat.
The Critical Upgrades discusses the importance of belt alignment, and is so noted in the link to SEM above.
Has anyone tried Balmar's serpentine belt pulley conversion? Supposedly more surface area and less slipping. Not cheap but might solve the belt dust problem.
http://www.balmar.net/balmar-technology/altmount-serpentine-conversion-technology/
Replying just to follow and receive notifications. If there's a way to do that without replying, please let me know!
Quote from: DaveBMusik on February 11, 2018, 07:09:04 AM
Has anyone tried Balmar's serpentine belt pulley conversion? Supposedly more surface area and less slipping. Not cheap but might solve the belt dust problem.
http://www.balmar.net/balmar-technology/altmount-serpentine-conversion-technology/
I've done a couple but not all M-25 series engines are ready for the kit. Some M-25's don't have the three bolt hole crank pulley which is required for the Balmar / AltMount kit..
I sold this package to a member here, or on C-36, can't remember which..
(http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/image/166161813.jpg)
I did the serpentine kit install this winter on my M35a and it went very smoothly. We did not think the large pulley would fit as is but no machining was needed and everything fit perfectly.
Just a heads up on the 8MR external regulation kits..
I know at least one or two from C-34 were interested in a CMI-105-ER or a CMI-90-ER. I have sold five of these alts in the last two days and my inventory on external regulation kits is getting down to crumbs. When the ER kits are gone they are gone unless you can find one on eBay. I grab one every time I see it and they are getting harder and harder to come across.
I am working a source in Europe right now who was supposedly shipped 64 of these kits a while ago. As of yet what they may have left has not been answered.. I am hoping they have a few left.
My sourcing to create this kit on my own is hitting dead ends every day due to what it will cost.. Frustrating to say the least.
Hopefully you have at least one more 105A to fill the order I just placed.
Already on its way Jon. I had two built and ready to ship.
Great thanks. Any suggestions on how to pack to protect while it's in storage?
Quote from: Jon W on February 15, 2018, 02:47:40 PM
Great thanks. Any suggestions on how to pack to protect while it's in storage?
Best option would be a silica pack and a food sealer, if on-board..... How long will storage be?
Don't know, I'm buying as a ready to go back up if the one on the engine fails. It was on the boat with an internal regulator when I bought it, so I have no idea the age or number of hours it has. I replaced the internal regulator with the external regulator kit and connected to a Balmar MC-614 as part of my electrical upgrade completed in 2016.
Quote from: mainesail on February 14, 2018, 02:36:00 PM
My sourcing to create this kit on my own is hitting dead ends every day due to what it will cost.. Frustrating to say the least.
SOMEONE on the list must be into 3D printing? Not me, but anyone?
k
Quote from: mainesail on February 14, 2018, 02:36:00 PM
When the ER kits are gone they are gone unless you can find one on eBay.
RC,
I am looking at the pics (don't have my reg case opened up) and it seems that "a kit" isn't absolutely necessary. Since I'm not hands-on maybe I'm missing a mousetrap that I can't forsee -- please correct me if I am. But it seems that that the field connections could be brought thru the OEM reg cover in 5 or 6 different ways (without experimenting not sure yet which would be the best method.)
A Packard 56 connector or other connector (instead of bolt terminal) could be used on the new field wire
Has anyone made the switch and still have their old reg?? I would love to experiment with it.
ken
Ken,
Any alternator can be converted to ER, it's just a matter of how professionally or unprofessionally you want it done. Some alternators are extremely hard to convert (Hitachi, Denso, Mitsubishi, many J180 frames etc.) and others are a bit easier.
Most alternator shops simply solder a wire to the brushes and pull it through a gap in the case. I have seen some regulators destroyed when the field wire shorts to ground because the conversion was done in a rather unprofessional manner. I have also seen shops use 60C wire used and seen it literally melt to the rectifier and short. I replaced an alt a guy on SBO had an alt-shop convert that shorted in this manner in late September. It took out his Balmar regulator when it shorted. This is what I consider an unprofessional conversion.. When I convert the Hitachi's or other frames, that require internal wiring, I use MIL-Spec 200C wire and a high temp no-lead solder that runs $110.00 per pound.
In regards to the 8MR, the key for me, is that the ER kit maintains USCG & UL compliance for use on gas engines, & for spark protection, where a DIY conversion would lack this. No big deal on a diesel but for gas it could actually be unsafe to do a your own DIY spark protection kit... These alts were installed on many gas engines so for me, when I build them, I want to retain the spark protection as LN designed it.
These kits only existed because LN originally built these alts for Balmar and Balmar insisted on UL/USCG spark compliance. Balmar dropped this in favor of the 6 & 7 series alternators based on Delco and LN dual internal fan frames.. The LN South American factory that built the 7 series was seized and all the machining and tooling was lost. I've been able to source all the original components used in the Balmar because these were US made (up until recently) but the ER kits were discontinued. The factory ER kit is also shallower than the internal reg plate so the F to R dimension does not change for clearance.
You can melt the epoxy, and the existing regulator, out of the plate, but you will now have unsealed slots or holes in the side. I have experimented with this and it can be done, but labor wise is pretty tedious. I mounted insulated studs at 9:00 & 3:00 then filled with potting epoxy, but again, it's tedious and I would not be able to sell them for gas engines....
In the future it may be all we have unless I can come up with an ER kit. Just last week I tempted my LN contact with a 500 piece order for the ER kits. They previously declined a 250 piece order. I don't know what I will do if they bite but it may prompt them to sell me rights to the kit or I bite the bullet and buy 500. I did just find some in Europe but landed cost will be well in excess of $65.00 each.. Argh....
When I build using the Delco frames/components I have a company that builds me custom ER regulator plates, but these alts are for diesel use only and these reg plates are not inexpensive to have made in short runs.
Maine Sail,
This fellow is close to me on Saltspring Island:
https://www.i3dgear.com/online-store
2022 Update - no longer in business. Darn...
Rod,
Zero-ing on just the 8MRs, only method I envisioned leaves the spark-arrested reg as-is. I'm sensitive to the gasser and labor issues.
Is the ground continuous thru the OEM reg? If so that wire could just be left as-is. (Or if not, could it be grounded to the case via a screw on the clip holding the brush retainer?)
Could one of the wires (excite? D+?) be clipped where it exits the potting, and be butt-crimped to the field wire?
That leaves the case exactly as-is as far as spark-arresting, be no more labor than installing the kit, and be zero cost.
If that method was viable, I guess the question is whether the result would be professional "enough."
Very helpful discussion re external regulator conversion kit availability, or lack of. Thanks to everyone.
Question: I have a conversion kit on my existing 8mr2401ua alternator. If this alternator fails and I replace it with another 8mr alternator (e.g. 8mr2069ta), can I reuse the conversion kit from the existing alternator?
Quote from: KWKloeber on February 17, 2018, 11:12:14 AM
Is the ground continuous thru the OEM reg? If so that wire could just be left as-is. (Or if not, could it be grounded to the case via a screw on the clip holding the brush retainer?)
These units are not case grounded & the external ground wire is not continuous through the reg to the brush wire. The IR needs to be 100% disabled for ER & the neg brush lead ties to the insulated neg post. The area inside the unit, to solder or tap into the neg rectifier internally, is quite tight so an external connection, to the insulated NEG post, is best.
Quote from: KWKloeber on February 17, 2018, 11:12:14 AMCould one of the wires (excite? D+?) be clipped where it exits the potting, and be butt-crimped to the field wire?
There is no path through the existing reg for an external regulator field drive. One
some of the 8MR regs the sense lead will tone-out to one brush wire,
continuity wise, but this pathway is far too light, inside the regulator, to drive a 6-7A field current for an ER. It is set up for sense only and is a very light pathway (not intended to carry any current just sense voltage).. Inside the stock IR it is 100% epoxy encapsulated and just gets disemboweled, if you want to use that plate to drive the brushes for ER.
Again you
can create an ER plate from and old reg with some potting epoxy or insulated studs at 9:00 & 3:00 but it is nowhere near as easy as using LN's old kit.
Quote from: KWKloeber on February 17, 2018, 11:12:14 AMThat leaves the case exactly as-is as far as spark-arresting, be no more labor than installing the kit, and be zero cost.
Except it won't work as you described, wiring wise..
THANKS for the additional info Rod,
Hopefully you can make some headway with L-N !!
fwiw, might not be indicative of most, but my MR82049K is case grounded, no OEM ground connection except thru the engine mount :shock: (I have since added a ground cable.)
really good info Rod
ken
Quote from: KWKloeber on February 21, 2018, 09:32:21 AM
THANKS for the additional info Rod,
Hopefully you can make some headway with L-N !!
fwiw, might not be indicative of most, but my MR82049K is case grounded, no OEM ground connection except thru the engine mount :shock: (I have since added a ground cable.)
really good info Rod
ken
The units one would use for better output and a true heavier duty alt would be the 90A and 105A units and those are all isolated ground alternators. The old 51A units don't handle being converted to external without some hefty belt manger reductions making them pretty much useless. That alt also shipped with a few different regs over the years one of them factory set at 15.0V (8RG2010A) and one set at just 14.2V (8RG2009A). Neither is ideal and the8RG2010A can actually be deadly to AGM or GEL if the boat charges dockside during the week. About the best thing you can do with that alt is move to an 8RG2043 adjustable LN regulator but the reality is that it's not really even worth the $80.00 expense for a 51A alt.
Mea culpa for not being clear.....
I wasn't thinking of ER-ing the 2049, that would be waste. just noting about the frame ground.
k
Quote from: KWKloeber on February 21, 2018, 12:45:50 PM
Mea culpa for not being clear.....
I wasn't thinking of ER-ing the 2049, that would be waste. just noting about the frame ground.
k
Ah that makes sense. Some of the lower amperage 8MR units were case grounded.
Quote from: dfloeter on February 12, 2018, 06:58:16 PM
I did the serpentine kit install this winter on my M35a and it went very smoothly. We did not think the large pulley would fit as is but no machining was needed and everything fit perfectly.
Did you use Balmar kit or some cross reference from the automotive world ? (does it exist ?)
Quote from: MarcZ on February 22, 2018, 06:10:02 AM
Quote from: dfloeter on February 12, 2018, 06:58:16 PM
I did the serpentine kit install this winter on my M35a and it went very smoothly. We did not think the large pulley would fit as is but no machining was needed and everything fit perfectly.
Did you use Balmar kit or some cross reference from the automotive world ? (does it exist ?)
The kits for these marine engines are all custom made by one of three companies Balmar/AltMount, Mark Grasser or a company out of Canada, whom I won't name, and who has earned a pretty poor reputation for customer service as well as creating a direct patent infringement. Balmar owns the patent and only Mark Grasser is technically allowed to build similar kits.
I have one of my own customers that owns a machine shop. He throught the Balmar price was offensive so he built his own kit. He just recently bought a larger boat and teh fist thing he ordered was a Balmar serpentine kit..
"Bob why didn't you just make one like you did for the last boat?"
"Are you kidding me, the last one I made cost me twice what I just paid for the Balmar kit...."
Also keep in mind that unless your Universal has the main crank pulley, with three tapped bolt holes in it, you'll need to replace the OEM crank pulley too.
Thanks for the warning !
I actually found this "unmentioned" company last week on the web and I was considering them as a source ...
Been cruising from NY through Bahamas for the last 5 months. Unless you have AGMs with high acceptance rate (I have wet 6v x4) I don't understand how this is even a consideration. You will never see more than 25 amps coming in. Why over tax an already underpowered engine.
Also, don't expect the 'smart' gauge to work well with a solar setup, it's a marketing gig. Use a victron and check your resting voltage at midnight. Save yourself a few hundred bucks.
Quote from: ChrisOB on April 17, 2018, 11:50:33 PM
Been cruising from NY through Bahamas for the last 5 months. Unless you have AGMs with high acceptance rate (I have wet 6v x4) I don't understand how this is even a consideration. You will never see more than 25 amps coming in. Why over tax an already underpowered engine.
Something is not correct with your set up if all you can get is 25A into them.... A 450Ah bank of GC2's will easily take 100A+ at 50% DOD.
Quote from: ChrisOB on April 18, 2018, 12:10:28 AM
Also, don't expect the 'smart' gauge to work well with a solar setup, it's a marketing gig. Use a victron and check your resting voltage at midnight. Save yourself a few hundred bucks.
I have lots of these out there working extremely well with solar. You really only need to know your SOC once or twice per day and you'll know that once the sun goes down and before the sun comes up. After that you may see a 10% +/- discrepancy. Still much better than the accuracy of the majority of Ah counters I come across..
I find the smart gauge works well if I am pumping 15 amps of solar, but if I'm only getting 9 on a cloudy day, it will never increase. Similarly on those days I will go to sleep, it wil say 75% and I'll wake up at 74%. Running fridge and cpap machine. It seems to take a while to figure out the SOC If the charging amps aren't really high. I still like to have it, and check it all the time.
Also, hopefully I am just keeping the batteries pretty full if I never see more than 30 amps. Brand new charger and brand new 2 gauge wires. I replaced my alternator with a new 55 amp and I am happy, still wouldn't over tax my M25 for electric. Never seen the batteries below 12.3.
I think sometimes it is hard to recognize when one solution has been surpassed by newer less expensive technology. Mainsail gave you a hint...solar. If I was a crusier and not an "RVer" I'd add 200 watts of solar before the expense, dust, strain on engine and alignment issues associated with a larger alternator. Go green man!
On a different tangent, I am about to order a new aftermarket alternator that will replace my original Motorola. It is a direct replacement for the Motorola and Prestolite part numbers and I am confident in the selection.
I am not certain,in that it doesn't come with a pulley, If I will be able to order from the seller,but if not, I'm not I'm curious where to obtain a compatible pulley that will accommodate a 3/8 inch belt . I know that others have used their old pulley but I prefer to keep the old alternator serviceable.
Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Ken
This is the alternator Ken is considering:
https://www.dbelectrical.com/products/alternator-for-4-cyl-diesel-lehman-4d254-73-on-20054-3141192-353274.html
Anyone have any experience with this vendor and/or product?
I would want to know where it's imported from.
I usually have used Wilson reman alts, that NAPA sells, but a better price from filterspro.com.
They're totally reman, and Wilson is the largest remanufacturer in North America. A quality team.
When I order them, the Wilson tech will check their reman database and ship the unit that tested out to have the highest Vr setpoint.
I have also bought the comparable 72a moto/Leece (Wilson reman) from filterspro. Direct fit with a little more oomph and lower wear and tear on the alt. They say there's no pulley, but I have never had one that didn't have it.
syoung@filterspro.com Sherry Young
JTSE
Ken
And the owner is a vet.
The alternator Ken is considering comes out of China and the reseller is making a far bigger margin than anyone selling a quality Leece-Neville alternator is. You do get what you pay for with alternators.
A better choice would be going to at least 65A such as the LN 8MR2402L. This unit uses the external adjustable voltage regulator. The old 8MR2049 units came with regulators set at anywhere from 14.2V to over 15V. With Chinese "one size fits all" replacements it can be hard to tell which regulator they supply. 14.2V will under charge and 15.0+V will eventually over charge.
I offer 1/2" and 3/8" single v pulleys, for 8MR alternators using a non-metric alt shaft (most of them). I have them custom machined.
https://shop.marinehowto.com/t/alternators--regulators (https://shop.marinehowto.com/t/alternators--regulators)
I currently have an "original" Motorola 8RG2009A alternator & it took me 2 weeks of PB application & patience to get the pivot bolt free. It was bonded from the bolt to the alt frame. PB did the job.
I am looking to have the alt tested & then determine my next step & trying to keep a tight budget.
I have 2 GC T105 & a group 24 for reserve/starting. My use is weekend on the hook & back to marina. I have a Sterling 30 amp charger, excellent purchase from Mainsail. It will keep the batteries maintained so the alt needs are not high.
Any suggestion as to smart choices would be appreciated.
If you are on a budget and your existing alternator works, IMO keep it. Why switch? I assume you have the engine bracket retrofit mentioned in "Critical Upgrades"?
Ed
That's the regulator number. Is it on an 8MR2049K alt (the # is stamped into the up-front side of the housing.
Have you done any upgrades to the AO and negative cables on the alt and in the engine space?
PS Ed in the meantime this thread might give you information that is germaine to your boat usage?
https://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,10114.msg77672.html#msg77672
Ed, Ken's link is a good one, please read it from the beginning and check out the links within that topic, too.
Engine mount bracket retrofit has been done.
I am in the process of doing some extensive rewiring, many many items from this forum have been very useful. Replacing all wiring from the alt & cockpit control panel plus many updates to the Power Panel. Changing SPST to DPDT AC breaker, changing all terminal connectors to marine heat shrink, changing 1/2/BOTH switch & relocating, adding SG200 to monitor 2XT-105 House bank & voltage display for DC at Power Panel.