A friend of mine, and a member of the Association, told me that it was OK for me to run the refridgeration for 24 hours on one battery so long as I charged the battery for one hour the next day. I tried it, with one small block of ice in the fridge, and it worked fine. The battery I used still had 12 volts in it the next day.
Can I rely on this one time test? I alternate batterirs every day whilst cruising and use both when running the engine.
Peter
One hour on a 51A alternator seems like a short time to get the battery back after a 24 hr drain from the refrigerator. I don't have the statistics, but if you keep up a good RPM for that hour it is probably sufficient. I cheat and have a charge condition monitor on my inverter panel, so I just motor until the house bank is "in the green".
I have a third (isolated) starting battery as Ron mentions. The alternator is connected directly to that battery. I then have a "Both-2-1-Off" switch on the starting battery (starting battery connected to the "1" terminal and the house bank to the "2" terminal). I have an identical switch on the house bank. So . . . I always have a load on the alternator when the engine is running regardless of the switches (important), I have an inside engine switch that deactivates the pedistal starting switch, I can use the house bank to start the engine, I can isolate the starting battery when on extended cruising, and I can switch between the two 4D house batteries so I have a house reserve. I only have to remember to switch both switches to "Both" when running the engine. In my future plans I want to add two solenoids that energize off the oil pressure sensor circuit to automatically trip the batteries into the charge loop whenever the engine is running (a friend has this set-up on his C-36 and it works as slick as can be).
PS - my inverter is connected to house battery #2; but again I must remember to switch the house bank to "Both" when using the shore-power charger to recharge both house batteries. Checking the switches before switching on/off breakers at the panel is just a habit I have gotten used to.
PETER.... I use a honda 2000 watt portable generator when I cruise. It works great!!! It gives me hot water in 20 minutes and it runs my battery charger. you can also use 110 outlets like your on shore power. The generator automaticaly regulates rpm according to demand.
It only weighs 46 pounds and is so quiet you can't hear it when down below. you never have to run your engine!!! Just a thought....PAUL
Legend (and the Tech Notes) has it that the fridge draws 5 amps with a duty cycle of 50% - so 5*24*.5 = 60 amps/day. An hour a day of engine time is going to be a little short, unless you have a high output alternator.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PAUL T.:
PETER.... I use a honda 2000 watt portable generator when I cruise. It works great!!! It gives me hot water in 20 minutes and it runs my battery charger. you can also use 110 outlets like your on shore power. The generator automaticaly regulates rpm according to demand.
It only weighs 46 pounds and is so quiet you can't hear it when down below. you never have to run your engine!!! Just a thought....PAUL<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Where do you keep the gererator?
Peter
Peter, Your initial comment was a lesson in the steadily diminishing law of returns. If it worked fine, how did you know? Do you have a Link 10 to measure amps in and out? If not, you could eventually run your battery bank flat, even though it looked good for the first few days. Have you done an energy budget?
If you don't have an external regulator with a newer alternator, your 55 amp alternator is still the OEM internally regulated, which is doing relatively little to recharge your batteries.
Steve Lyle is right about the drain from the fridge.
Try checking out the Ample Power website (www.amplepower.com), they have a great Primer that explains a lot about batteries.
It also appears that you are simply switching between your two batteries daily in lieu of having a separate dedicated starting battery. You might want to consider a separate starting battery and then wire your two existing batteries together for a larger, more efficient house bank.
Just some thoughts,
Stu
Peter.... In response to your question, where do I keep the generator? When I'm sailing I keep it under the dinett table behind the mast, no fuel in it of course. When in use I put it on deck directly in front of the mast, I find this spot gives me no vibration down below. I keep the gasoline in a safety can secured on deck. I would also like to add that having the generator is a great saftey net because you always have the ability to start your engine. Also be aware of where the exaust is going always have good ventilation. Carbon monoxide poisoning has been in the news a lot lately. BE AWARE!!!! PAUL "SEAESTA"
Peter
Further to my post from yesterday, I've been meaning to post this for some time now, and this seems an appropriate place to do so.
IS IT BETTER TO HAVE ONE OR TWO BATTERY BANKS FOR HOUSE USE?
(By Nigel Calder - I DIDN’T write this!!!) ["Calder and Calder" for searching]
The popular arrangement of having two house banks alternated in use needs scrutiny
before I go any further.
LIFE CYCLES: As we have seen, the life expectancy of a battery in cycling service is
directly related to the depth to which it is discharged at each cycle - the greater the
depth of discharge, the shorter the battery’s life.
This relationship between depth of discharge and battery life is NOT linear. As the
depth of discharge increases, a battery’s life expectancy is disproportionately
shortened. A given battery may cycle through 10% of its capacity 2,000 times, 50% of
its capacity 300 times and 100% of its capacity around 100 times.
Let’s say, for arguments sake, that a boat has two 200-ah battery banks, alternated
from day to day, with a daily load of 80 Ah. Each bank will be discharged by 40% (80
Ah of one of the two 200 Ah banks) of its capacity before being recharged. The
batteries will fail after 380 cycles, which is 760 days (since each is used every other
day). If the two banks had been wired in parallel, to make a single 400 Ah battery bank,
this bank would have been discharged by 20% of capacity every day, with a life
expectancy of 800 days, a 5% increase in life expectancy using exactly the same
batteries!
But now let’s double the capacity of the batteries, so that the boat has either two 400
Ah banks, or a single 800 Ah bank, but with the same 80 Ah daily load. The two
separate banks will be cycling through 20% of capacity every other day, resulting in a
total life expectancy of 1,600 days. Doubling the size of the battery banks in relation to
the load has produced a 210% increase in life expectancy. The single 800 Ah bank will
be cycling through 10% of capacity every day, resulting in a life expectancy of 2,000
days - a 25% increase in life expectancy over the two (400 Ah) banks, and a 250%
increase in life expectancy over the single 400 Ah battery bank!
There are two immediate conclusions to be drawn from these figures:
1. For a given total battery capacity, wiring the (house) batteries into a single high
capacity bank, rather than having them divided into two alternating banks, will result in a
longer overall life expectancy for the batteries.
2. All other things being equal, any increase in the overall capacity of a battery bank
will produce a disproportionate increase in its life expectancy (through reducing the
depth of discharge at each cycle).
FOR BATTERY LONGEVITY, A SINGLE LARGE (HOUSE) BANK, THE LARGER THE
BETTER, IS PREFERABLE TO DIVIDED (HOUSE) BANKS.
THANKS STU FOR REMINDING ME ABOUT THAT GREAT BATTERY INFO FROM CALDER. I HAVE A QUESTION, SHOULD I JUST LEAVE THE MASTER SWICH ON "ALL" SO THAT IT WILL COMBINE MY TWO BANKS OF 220 AH EACH? I DO NOT HAVE A STARTER BANK.
THANKS , DAVE :)
Dave
My DEFINITIVE answer has to be: "It Depends!"
You could add a separate starting battery and then combine your four golf carts into one big house bank. But I'm guessing you don't want the weight. :o
To assure you always have a "backup" for starting the engine, I'd continue to use each separate bank. With 220 ah in each bank as you now have it wired, that would be enough to keep you running for a day or two even at anchor.
I'd advise again using ALL because you wouldn't have a backup for starting in case the load you imposed (or some other glitch) used up your bank's capacity (either or both).
Stu
PS - the main purpose of me posting the Calder info was to advise folks who use separate battery banks for different house loads (i.e., separate "dedicated" fridge battery, then another for the lights, stereo, etc., that that just doesn't make too much sense. It doesn't really address the issue of a "two house bank" setup, switching off daily, but does indirectly. Seems the best bet is as big a house bank as you can get, with a separate starting battery.
Ample Power Source
I forget (more often than not, these days!) if I ever posted this source for the Ample Power Primer.
http://www.amplepower.com/ (http://www.amplepower.com/)
While at first glance it may seem "self serving" when read, they did kind of write part of the book on electrical systems.
When read with Calder, West Marine's Advisors, and other reputable sources, it begins to make sense.
The basic concept is that there are many options in designing electrical systems for boats, and there is no ONE right answer.
Combiners or Echo Chargers or the 1-2-B switch?
Separate inverters and chargers or combination units?
How you plan to use your boat (dockside, day sails, single or few overnights, extended times being "unplugged?" (Energy budget, sizing and size of house banks, alternator size, etc.)
If you figure out HOW you plan to use your boat FIRST, you can design and install and USE what's right for YOU.
Have fun.
Stu
Agree with Ron! The bottom line is that you've got to have some idea how many electrons you need, and how quickly you use them. Can't beat a monitor for simplicity or accuracy; but you can use a watch as well. Unfortunately, this requires that a) you know your amp/watt draw of various electrical components, and b) you do math--but it will work.
There are countless ways to set up an electrical system. Here's what we did--our goal has been to make our system as simple and redundant as possible. We have one house bank (approximately 450 amp hours) made up of four golf cart batteries. It is either ON or OFF. It is charged via a 115v 3-stage charger. This charger is powered by either shore power or a 5KW "Seapower" alternater mounted on the front of our engine. It is not recharged by the standard engine driven alternator. We have a separate starting battery for the engine. It has no ON/OFF switch and is recharged by the engine-driven alternator. Additionally, this battery has a separate 3-stage 115v charger that operates off of shorepower (not the same charger used to charge the house bank). This is the same way your car is wired and requires no user interface other than turning the key. To interconnect the system? A set of marine jumper cables! Could use a 1/2/Both switch; but we've got small kids so this way the two systems are never connected and the starting battery can't be accidentally discharged.
The 5KW Seapower unit has proven to be a pretty good compromise. It was on the boat when we purchased it, although it was inoperative and required repair. We couldn't find a clever way to install a separate generator (at least within the family budget!). But the Seapower unit allows us to have AC power when required (albeit with the main engine running). It does draw quite a bit of horse-power, several ponies per KW but the only system on-board that has proven to be a large draw is the air conditioner. We don't engage the Seapower when the engine is critical, e.g., docking, challenging weather, and avoid use of the air conditioner unless it's a really hot, windless day and we're cruising on the motor. We will engage during general motoring if the engine is going to run for a half-hour or so to continue to charge the house bank. We've found that less than an hour per day is sufficient to keep the house bank topped off (we have a NORCOLD refrigeraton system).
Incidentlly, we've always been very happy with Catalina--don't think that you can beat the value and our new (to us!) 34 is the second Catalina we've owned; but I've been less than impressed by the electrical system. The factory system is less than stellar, and the two previous owners did multiple modifications, some of which not only weren't up to code, but weren't safe. If you're not comfortable with doing electrical work, you might consider hiring a qualified marine electritian to at least find/correct potentially dangerous faults. If you're purchasing a new boat, a critical look at the electrical system by the surveyor is definitely warranted!
Best of Luck!
Mike Vaccaro
"Spirit" '88 Hull 563
New Boat Electrical
Mike wrote: "If you're purchasing a new boat, a critical look at the electrical system by the surveyor is definitely warranted!"
If you are purchasing a new boat, you'll find two major flaws that have never been addressed by Catalina (or, for that matter, by many other "stock" boat manufacturers):
1. Standard stock alternator with no external regulation - see discussions above about inadequate engine charging without external regulation.
2. Poor to useless Charles chargers installed by Catalina. They are, as far as we can tell, not true three stage chargers. Do a message board search for "Charles Redux" and you'll find the postings.
Is this bad?
Not necessarily, since this thread has mentioned that people use their boats in many different ways.
It is difficult to understand why Catalina chooses not to provide enhanced electrical systems as an option, which many have suggested to the factory over the years.
My guesses are that, 1) it complicates the production; 2) most people buying new boats don't examine the electrical systems; 3) there hasn't been enough feedback or push for enhancements; 4) people like - or learn to do or have done - the extra electrical work necessary to make their boats work for them.
Many many years of complaints about bad batteries are basically a SYSTEM problem - too small a bank with too big a load, inadequate alternator charging, horrible (at best) factory shorepower chargers - but we've all heard it before.
One of the good things is that it forces us to learn more about our boats, and design and install what works for us individually.
There are so many more reference sources on electrical systems than ever before, so even if you're not an electrical "geek" you can begin to learn about it. Another good source in addition to Calder and Ample is Jack Rabbit Marine, who, I realized just yesterday, offer Ample alternators. These alternators look just like the old Motorolas, so if you are thinking of upgrading your alternator, you won't have to shave your existing bracket to use a Balmar.
[8/29/13 - Stu - Jack Rabbitt went out of business. Try the "Electrical 101" topic in the "101 Topics" sticky.]
Really, there are so many options, maybe the factory made the right choice after all - customers get to customize!
In responding to a question, off line, from a C27 owner, I noted to her what I had written in the Nov. 2006 Mainsheet Alternator/Regulator Upgrade article:
Alternator Output: The older boats with only one 1-2-B switches are usually factory wired with the alternator output to the "C" post of the switch. This means that the switch was actually used for two purposes: (1) which battery bank(s) the alternator charge goes to when the engine is running; (2) which bank is chosen for use for DC power. We changed that. We moved the original alternator output FROM the "C" TO the "1" post (our house bank) of the switch. The Combiner charges the start bank without having to use the 1-2-B switch for selecting alternator charging output ONLY because we moved that connection. The revised alternator charging path was from the alternator through the AutoMac to the "1" switch post to the house bank, using the #4 OEM red wiring. IMPORTANT NOTE: You cannot simply move the alternator output from the "C" to the "1" post without a Combiner or Echo Charger type relay equipment because the start bank would not get charged. Another way to put this is: If your alternator output is wired to the C post of the 1-2-B switch, and you do not have a combiner (or equivalent), then you have to start the engine with the switch on B (ALL) because this would be the only way to charge both of your banks from the alternator.
The point being: SINCE most boats are wired FROM the alternator TO the 1-2-B switch, MOVE the alternator output TO the house bank, and figure out how YOU would like to have the switching done to keep your start bank charged from WHATEVER sources you choose.
Interestingly, not much has changed since this thread from four years ago.
It would be interesting to know how many owners ever use their starting battery to start the engine. I always use my house batteries to start the engine and I can think of only one cold and snowy pacific northwest winter morning (Espar heater and frig going for many hours) in almost three decades when I felt the need to turn to "Both" to preheat and start the engine. Both the Perkins (in my previous 320) and the Universal engines start so easily after preheating that I think the house bank would have to be in pretty bad shape not to do the job.
All of this argues perhaps for adopting the Calder solution and foregoing a dedicated starting battery completely, especially if you have room in a storage locker for one of those compact emergency start packs.
Ok - So what's the real difference between having a dedicated start battery and an "emergency starter pack". They're both batteries and have a finite life span. One is taking up space in a fixed location and one's portable. One could combine the design and stick the starting battery anywhere with a small charging circuit. As John suggests, use the house bank to start most of the time. Then, if ever needed, move the start battery close to the house bank and use a set of jumper cables to start your engine.
Craig
I am thinking of changing from my stock two 12 volt batteries to four 6 volt trojan golf cart batteries and I have read that they will fit into the same compartment under the dinette seat but can you use battery boxes and hold down straps or do you have to fasten and cover them some other way? What is the best location for the sepreate starting battery if I decide to go that way and can I still use the 1 2 b switch in the both possition since the're different battery types? How hard is the alternator upgrade?
Thanks,
Mike
Mike, peruse the Tech Notes, they have pictures, too.
Mike, I think you will be happy if you make the change to 4 six volt batteries and a separate starting battery. I separated the 2 by using the Balmar Duo Charger. It doesn't make a difference if you use different types of batteries and I have a dedicated ON-OFF switch for the starting battery. My electrical upgrade was quite extensive and I can give you more details if you like.
Mike - Check all the Projects on electrical upgrades as well. Peruse the C36 message board too. There is a great deal of information available to help you make the right choices to meet your needs. There's no single answer. It depends on how much money you want to spend. You might be able to get by with just a different regulator. The Jack Rabbit Marine site lists a new product from ProMariner that claims to "fool" a stock alternator into a better charging regimen. http://www.jackrabbitmarine.com/Detail.bok?no=2438
I have a Link20 shunt, a six position fuse block and a 150A breaker on the port side of my battery compartment. There wasn't room for normal battery boxes to secure the four T-105's. In the project pictures, you'll find various solutions to securing the batteries.
Craig
We use our start bank to start the engine some of the time when first leaving the dock or after being at anchor. We also use the house bank to restart the engine after a daysail (simply because I'm sometimes lazy :) - but I will sometimes go below to change the 1-2-B switch over from house to start (our alternator output goes directly to the house bank NOT through the switch, so we have no problems turning the switch with the engine running either). That way we know every time we come on board that the start bank IS working.
I have participated in the "start pack" discussions on this message board earlier and continue to believe that unless you have a great need for a start pack somewhere else in your life (i.e., second homes, RVs, etc.) it is preferable to have the built-in confidence in a properly wired and installed start bank, use it, and confirm its operation on a regular basis.
Edit: Jan. 2009 - I'm now in favor of calling the start bank the reserve or emergency bank. The house bank is fine to start the engine. The reserve bank should be just that: fully charged up, ready to go, but only need if the house bank dies.
Edit: Sept. 2009 - You should also remove the AO from the factory 1-2-B switch to the house bank and use another method to charge the reserve bank (switch, echo charger, combiner, etc.).
If you are going to have a dedicated starting battery, you should always at least start from it when leaving the dock. The best way to confirm that your starting battery is fully functional is to actually start your engine with it. Those who start with the battery switch in BOTH or from just the house bank will never know if that dedicated starting starting battery is ready to help them when they accidentally run everything else down or have a battery failure in their house bank.
My preferred approach is to have a dedicated starting battery always connected to the engine starting circuit through a simple on/off ( normally ON ) battery switch, the alternator connected directly to the house bank, an electronic battery combiner/isolator AND mechanical on/off battery switch ( normally OFF ) connected between the house and start banks ( the electronic combiner takes care of starter bank charging when the engine is running ), and an on/off battery switch ( normally ON ) between the house bank and the house loads ( excluding the inverter if you have one ). This is a very "mindless" setup that requires no battery switch manipulations during all normal operations, but allows you to manually cross-connect the house and starting banks together if either bank should become unusable. This provides a simple, reliable configuration that many of my former cruising customers have put many sea miles on with no problems.
John
I'm setup the same as John. After having it that way for almost two years now, there's nothing I'd change.
Craig
Here's another thread on battery location including a diagram of my setup.
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php?topic=3423.msg18905#msg18905
My setup keeps the starting battery separate from the house
with the alternator normally connected only to the starting battery.
(This works well for normal day sails as the house get shore charged)
It also allow me to join the banks or charge either independently.
To automate the setup I could add an echo charger but this setup
allows for a lot of control with minimal wiring changes.
I don't have my engine battery connected to my shore charger as
I didn't want it influenced by my fridge and house batteries circuit
with the constant cycling. So in general the starting battery has absolutely
no load on it at the dock and gets topped off when I take the boat out.
If I want to top it off all I have to do it put the battery selector on both.
I'm not sure if keeping the charger off the starting battery has any effect on
electrolysis ... I believe one place where the engine (and shaft/prop) are
connected to the shore power ground is via the hot water heater.
-d
To continue and kinda "update" this thread, a search on "wiring diagram" will bring up some good followup reading on the subject.
When I use my ie2000 I hang it off a halyard ..takes all the vibration away and the boat doesn't turn inti a "drum"
Neat idea.
I bought one of those closed cell foam knee pads used for gardening to try and isolate the vibration. Haven't tried it yet.
I'll put in my 2 cents. I did some very rough calculations (using my high out put alternator) which showed I would need to run my engine TOO long for my taste and wear and tear on the engine to keep my batteries charged to run the refrig and I couldn't comfortably use the microwave. My current system has worked for the past few years- the fact that this has been WORKING is the real proof.....I use the Honda 2000 generator for hot water, my microwave and to recharge my batteries mostly for the refrig (Grunet electric refer). This works great, I can keep the batteries charged to above 50% and monitor this with the link 10 system. Also - I think very important....I installed the blue sea battery switch with the "isolator" which charges my starting battery and house bank of 2 batteries but also isolates them. The isolatin without having to change the switch makes like less stressful for me. It has off/on/combine so all I do is turn the switch to on and don't worry about it.....if I need to combine the house bank for starting I can switch it to combine. No worries about running down my starting battery while sailing or at anchor.
I keep the generator in the cabin with an empty tank (be careful filling the generator tank - it runs along time on a tank...I usually fill it 1/3 only so it runs dry before I put it away) and the gas cans in my dingy. I need to turn off the eco switch for the microwave but otherwise it is very quiet!
One last thing - I also use a wireless thermometer (the "outside" sensor in the refer) and the read out in the galley - this tells me things are working and helps guide me on non generator days or trips when to turn the refer on and off.
Chris
This whole thread is highly outdated. The real solution of course is to have 400W of solar panels on your bimini and 4 T105s! I have this configuration with a dedicated start battery under the aft bunk, which I haven't wired yet, and a high output alternator with parallelling relay in the forward hanging locker uninstalled.
I have the old AB refridgeration (not terribly efficient). We run it cold enough so that the meat is always frozen and the ice cubes are always ready. We run the microwave, flat screen TV, computers, cabin lights, shop vac, and anything else we care to all the time. In two months, I've plugged in to shore power only twice and largely because we got tired of heating the kettle for dishes. I haven't started the engine to charge the batteries.
The biggest deficit I've seen is a 150 Ah on some high load / low output days.
The only downside is a poor view of the sails standing at the wheel...
This is an old thread that I picked up on last week in reviewing some other issues that have come up on the board about electrical systems and "running the fridge" all the time. Steve is right, there have been technological changes in the electrical boat system industry since this thread first came up.
Chris, I'm glad you're happy with your system and that it works for you. It appears that you understand how things work. It is a great idea to have a battery monitor and should be the first thing folks install – even though many of us (me!!!) have left it for last! Please, for new folks, learn from our mistakes and install a battery monitor FIRST.
I have previously provided my comments on this board on the dual circuit switch (http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4623.15.html) and believe it is a completely incorrect way to operate a system because all it does is connect a BAD bank with a good one. A simple 1-2-B switch would be much better because you can isolate the two banks and also have EITHER bank serve any load you choose.
Turing a switch shouldn't be that hard an issue to deal with. What I have never been able to understand is the dual circuit guy's mantra about simplicity of switching. They say it's easier. That's just plain nonsense! The dc switch has three positions: off on combine. The 1-2-B switch has four positions: 1, 2, B and off. Wow, how much more challenging can you get! And combine should be a position that is never used because combining a bad bank with a good one is just plain wrong for both your batteries and the continuity of operation of your boat.
What the dc crowd is missing completely is that the 1-2-B arrangement allows for limited house loads to be run from the reserve bank if/when the house bank fails. This is the maximum flexibility you can get out of your electrical system. The dc switch does NOT permit this flexibility.
With our 1-2-B switch, I put in on 1 and leave it there (how simple, just like the dc "on" position), using the reserve bank as just that, not a "start" bank. My Link 2000 tells me the condition of the reserve bank. Even without a two bank Link, a simple multimeter would suffice to check. Charge it occasionally and use it sometimes just to be sure, that's all that's needed. I helped design a system recently where the owner insisted on using the start bank all the time with good reason: starting the engine sometimes wipes out electronics. But we included a way to crossover, just in case, by being able to use the "start" bank for house loads, limited by the skipper's use of the panel switches. Your boat, your choice.
Your two batteries in the house bank indicate to me that even though it appears that you've done your energy budget, a much larger house bank would allow you to operate your microwave (within reason) without having to depend on a generator. While you don't mention the size of your two batteries in the house bank, they could be the 4Ds. If not, your two batteries in your house bank would then most likely be Group 31s and you'd have maybe at the most 130 AH in each battery for a bank of only 260 AH, or 130 usable. The fridge load is 60 AH plus other loads, for the usual 100 AH daily load, making your house bank only good for one day before needing to recharge. A larger house bank, even with only one more 130 AH battery, would go a long way to extending your time without recharging. Alternatively, you could well have selected the generator to provide the hot water, which is a very good thing to have. The choices are usually between the Honda Eu 1000 and 2000 units, the former doing only battery recharging while the 2000 can heat the hot water.
Of course, Steve's real world application of solar appears to be the least intrusive method of providing power.
The alternator as a source of charging banks is recognized as an inefficient method of charging, especially for the last 15 to 10% of the charge when the battery acceptance kicks in. You may be interested in this topic on alternators and charging, as well as the Small Engine Mode link within that topic. http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5137.0.html (http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5137.0.html)
You're right, isn't it great to have a system that works! Thanks for describing what you have and how it works for you.
Stu:
I have to disagree with your opinion (which is sound when only considering the wiring diagram) on the blue sea switch and ACR....I agree that connecting the starting battery to the run down house bank isn't smart or a good idea. Even without a generator to charge the batteries (in a normal or run down condition) - should my house bank be run down or dead....I wouldn't want to run the house load off of my starting battery. It isn't made for that and wouldn't last too long....what I would do is start the engine with my in tact starting battery (protected by the switch to be isolated from the dead bank) to run the engine and recharge the house bank from the alternator if I was on a trip without my generator.....just another idea.
To add my 4 cents now - the reason I opted for the generator in lieu of a 3rd house battery was mostly the added weight and the versatility of the generator....while the generator is probably a little heavier it provides more versatility - I have the 2000 for the hot water heater and the microwave for the admiral. I also used to carry an emergency jump start battery but don't need to now when I have the generator.
Chris
Chris, I understand. I have heard that point of view before.
But I am NOT saying run ALL your house loads off the start (reserve) bank.
What I am saying is it is much better to have the ability to run whatever house loads YOU CHOOSE off your reserve bank. Turn your fridge off, run your VHF and GPS.
Connecting a dead bank to a good one is nonsense. Pure and simple. That's why I so vehemently disagree with the dual circuit switch concept. It sets people up so completely for when something fails that everything is bound to fail once they flip that switch to combine the two banks. The small amount of energy left in the reserve bank floods into the dead house bank and you have NOTHING. Good thing you have a generator.
I am open to anyone explaining why this switch concept has any merits whatsoever. I've asked before, and am still waiting to hear.
And if your house bank is really really dead, then running the engine ain't gonna bring it back to life. Even you said it's inefficient to run the alternator to charge batteries.
And running a generator when you're running an engine doesn't make sense to me either.
Having the reserve bank being able to power LIMITED house loads provides a backup, backup, backup. I have a 60 ah reserve bank that''s always fully charged. If my house bank completely fries, I still have over 30 ah left to 50% discharge and I'd be willing to drain the entire bank to get home - it's only a car battery for goodness sake - $60. If I turn my fridge off, it still stays cold for say four or so hours. My electronics are all battery powered, but using Ron's examples, lets say your full blown electronics array takes from 2 to 5 amps, you still have 30 divided by 5 or six hours of completely powered up sailing. If at night, judicious use of power could allow you to run your nav lights all night long, and if you have LEDs, then you're fine for a full night. Not too bad for a situation with a completely dead house bank: the boat can still operate. The dual circuit switch simply does not permit this operational scenario.
And that's without the engine running.
If your ACR dies, you're out. If my combiner dies, I switch the 1-2-B switch to B.
But you have your system and it works for you. I have mine. And many have something in between. And some we haven't heard of yet! :shock:
What we have here on this forum is a way to share ideas and different points of view. I tend to rant a lot about electrical systems, because I've spent a lot of time with them. And I share those with reasons and diagrams and explanations.
I certainly do have my opinions, many of which have proven to have different and, perhaps, better solutions. I just don't think the dual circuit switch is one of 'em.