Catalina 34

General Activities => Main Message Board => Topic started by: mregan on June 30, 2017, 12:22:19 PM

Title: Replacing oil pressure switch
Post by: mregan on June 30, 2017, 12:22:19 PM
I think need to replace my oil pressure switch.  Engine buzzer stopped working.  When I put the buzzer to ground it works.  When it's connected back to the oil wire, nothing.  Wire is good, put a new one in 2 years ago but connected to about 6" of the old wire since it's in such a tight spot.  Hard to get to the switch on the engine block.  Was trying to unscrew the wire from the switch but the screw is very rusted and the wire terminal seems to have rusted to it.  When trying to unscrew the screw holding he wire, the wire spins with it.
When I remove the switch do I need to worry about oil spraying out?  Its an M25.
Title: Re: Replacing oil pressure switch
Post by: KWKloeber on June 30, 2017, 02:30:45 PM
Quote from: mregan on June 30, 2017, 12:22:19 PM

When I remove the switch do I need to worry about oil spraying out?  Its an M25.

ONLY if your engine is running!!  :-)

westerbeke p/n 299964
Kubota p/n 15841-39010
Or there's many available aftermarket -
You just need a 1/8-28 ("JIS" or "British" tapered thread, not NPT) normally closed switch that opens about 8 psi.

k
Title: Re: Replacing oil pressure switch
Post by: mregan on June 30, 2017, 05:30:05 PM
Thanks Ken.  Thanks for all your help on everything. New tach came in today so hopefully will get that issue fixed tomorrow.
Title: Re: Replacing oil pressure switch
Post by: KWKloeber on June 30, 2017, 06:09:24 PM
Which tach did you get?
Title: Re: Replacing oil pressure switch
Post by: KWKloeber on June 30, 2017, 06:17:24 PM
 Read all the WB service bulletins.  Be cautious on the switch, you need to use a socket. If not you'll muck it up.

Verify that your switch is bad. It may very well be good but you've got a bad engine ground.   It's unlikely (although possible) that the switch will fail in the open circuit position. More likely it will fail in the closed position (it's a normally closed switch and takes pressure to overcome that.)

k
Title: Re: Replacing oil pressure switch
Post by: mregan on July 01, 2017, 03:48:47 AM
Got a Faria Euro tach.  0-4000.  Said it was good for diesel.
Title: Re: Replacing oil pressure switch
Post by: Ron Hill on July 02, 2017, 04:28:05 PM
mre : If you look in the old Mainsheet tech notes you'll find an article that I wrote on changing out the oil pressure switch!!  I believe that I also had a picture with a new switch that I improved!! 

A thought
Title: Re: Replacing oil pressure switch
Post by: KWKloeber on July 02, 2017, 06:24:33 PM
Quote from: mregan on July 01, 2017, 03:48:47 AM
Got a Faria Euro tach.  0-4000.  Said it was good for diesel.

That's a great replacement Matt and Faria is reliable and has a great warranty -- that's the one I used on my last two panel refurbs.  BTW, Faria says otherwise, but there's a way to advance the hour meter if you want to match your current hours.  Unfortunately it's a one-for one -- to put on 500 hours it takes 500 hours of the HM running to do it (not engine running LOL)

Use dielectric SuperLube on the oil switch terminal screw so it doesn't corrode-in again.  If you install a British to NPT adapter, you can then use a much cheaper "American" replacement switch from your local auto parts store.

kk
Title: Re: Replacing oil pressure switch
Post by: KWKloeber on July 02, 2017, 06:31:00 PM
PS, if the OPS terminal is seized (a Philips driver strips it out) or the wire is seized to the terminal, use a hex socket on an extension to tighten (i.e, snap off) the terminal screw.

kk
Title: Re: Replacing oil pressure switch
Post by: Ron Hill on July 05, 2017, 03:08:10 PM
Guys : I believe that somewhere I recommend that you use a 1/4" SD 9/32" (?) socket - as it's tough to get a #1 Philips' on that small bolt.

A thought
Title: Re: Replacing oil pressure switch
Post by: mregan on July 06, 2017, 08:30:52 AM
Ron
Found your tech notes article.  I believe you mentioned 7mm socket to get the screw off.  Just picked up the new oil pressure switch so I can measure the screw size on it.  Tough to see it's hex shaped where it's located on the engine.  Mostly using a mirror to try to see the switch as I'm trying to unscrew it.

Ken
Saw an older thread on the oil pressure switch where you mentioned the original M25 had a hose from the rear of the engine with the oil pressure switch stuck in the end of the hose.  I need to look at the rear of the engine but I have a hose that comes from the rear of the engine and is just hanging by the side of the engin.  There is a snapped off fitting on the end.  Nothing has ever come out of the hose and could never find a broken fitting that would match up with the hose so I've just left it as is.  Will try to take some pictures of where it attaches to the engine.  Maybe someone will be able to figure out what it is.
Title: Re: Replacing oil pressure switch
Post by: KWKloeber on July 06, 2017, 08:55:09 AM
 Matt,

I I don't "believe" I ever said there was an oil pressure switch stuck in the end of the hose.

There was a machined (steel?  Aluminum?) Block where the 2 inch HX bracket was bolted. There was an oil hose (1/4? 3/8?) that ran from the engine block oil port to that point. The machined bock had two holes tapped,  JIS  thread to accommodate the Kabota switch and NPT to fit either a pressure sender or a future replacement switch.

The other end of the hose threaded into the JIS thread oil port on the engine block.

My hose deteriorated from the heat and started leaking, so I removed the Rube Goldberg and moved the switch to the engine block, just as the XPs have it.   Look at the parts manual for the M-25/XP and you'll see the Rube Goldberg.

At the same time I extended the pressure switch to where I can get at it, and added a pressure sender (and oil gauge at the panel).
Title: Re: Replacing oil pressure switch
Post by: mregan on July 06, 2017, 09:48:32 AM
Sorry my confusion was going off my memory of the old thread.  So if your engine had that hose, did you have to tap/thread the engine block to add the oil switch to the block? 

I was looking at the manual, mainly on the picture of both sides of the engine where it has the arrows & labels of the various parts of the engine.  Didn't see the hose in the picture and there is no mention of the oil pressure switch either on the hose or on the block.  That was throwing me for a loop originally.
Title: Re: Replacing oil pressure switch
Post by: KWKloeber on July 06, 2017, 10:04:05 AM
<<<<The other end of the hose threaded into the JIS thread oil port on the engine block.>>>>€

Kubota engines (and XP) have the oil Sw on that port.  Universal simply moved it to the rear and added the hose and machined block/Hx bracket etc.  I trashed the block when I changed to the 3" Hx.

Forget relying on any factory picture to accurately reflect any particular engine particulars.  Typical Westerbeke.
See the engine block (crankcase, I think) parts page and Hx page.  Learn that manual backwards and forwards!  In your sleep!

I thought the manual I uploaded was a searchable PDF. Maybe not.

kk
Title: Re: Replacing oil pressure switch
Post by: Stu Jackson on July 07, 2017, 07:33:47 PM
Ken,

Some years ago, a friend of mine purchased a used M25 engine to put into his Pearson 30 to replace an aging but still working A4.  He was clever: he put it on a dolly in his garage, ran  the inlet cooling water (properly) into a bucket, and the exhaust water went down his driveway!  :clap

He decided to use the M25 primarily because of the great M25 series engine support our our C34 website.

When he got it up and running, he invited me over.  It was downright AMAZING for me to be able to see ALL sides of our engine.  FOR THE VERY FIRST TIME.  Ever.   :shock:

On our boats, Ken, one simply cannot see the aft port side of the engine.  Period.  Ever.  While your contributions here and your information is incredibly good, sometimes your lack of familiarity with our particular boat shows, and I do admire you for sometimes noting it. 

That aft port location is where, IIRC, the TRACTOR oil pressure switch was located.  Because no human being could ever get there on our boats or even the C36s, it is my understanding that they (those dreaded people you keep disparaging) moved to a dumb idiot light and buzzer.  Perhaps you can get there on your engine on your C30, dunno.

That said, my boat is 30 years old, I completed a 1500 miles (almost - 99%) all motoring passage from San Francisco to Vancouver Island last summer (165 engine hours).

Do I wish I had an oil pressure gauge?  You betcha.  I used to drive some popular English sportscar in the 1960s,, which needed one because there was usually NO oil in the engine even after you added eighteen litres!   :thumb:

But I gotta say that even if those dastardly Seaward panel guys and those thoughtless Catalina engineers gave us boats without that critical piece of information (oil pressure), I some how (Gasp! :shock:) have continued to have success with my engine.  3,275 engine hours today.

I'm on the boat this weekend without my portable hard drive with the pictures of my friend's engine on the dolly in his garage.  I'll post them when I get home on Monday.
Title: Re: Replacing oil pressure switch
Post by: KWKloeber on July 07, 2017, 07:37:36 PM
 Stu,

I missing your point about the oil switch on the M 25? Are you saying that you can't get to your oil switch? Or are you saying that  yours is in a different location than where I've said??

Please clarify
Title: Re: Replacing oil pressure switch
Post by: Stu Jackson on July 07, 2017, 08:18:21 PM
Good question.  I should have said that the inaccessible port port is for the tractor oil pressure gauge sender.  Does THAT clarify it?  My oil pressure switch is where all the M25s have them.
Title: Re: Replacing oil pressure switch
Post by: mregan on July 09, 2017, 03:32:22 PM
Was at the boat today.  Bought a 15/16" socket to remove the old switch.  Checked the size on the new one first to make sure 15/16" was correct.  First tried to use the 7mm to remove the small screw.  Either it's not a hex head or it's stripped because the 7 didn't fit.  Tried a 6 & 5 and no luck.  By bending back and forth was able to snap the remaining wire which was rusted to the screw.  Went to put on the large socket.  Doesn't fit.  It's a long socket.  Can't tell if it's hitting the engine manifold and won't go on straight or it's too small.  Looking at the switch it's looks a bit different than the Kubota replacement I bought.  The section the socket fits on looks about the same but the small black section in front, where the screw goes in, looks longer than the kubota type.  As a whole it looks bigger than the replacement.  I don't think if it is 15/16" I'd be able to get a short socket on it.  I think the screw in section on the front is too long and wouldn't allow the short socket on enough. Any thoughts?  This thing is driving me nuts.
Title: Re: Replacing oil pressure switch
Post by: KWKloeber on July 09, 2017, 05:58:21 PM
Possibly a PO installed an aftermarket switch? 
The wire broke off clean, it isn't impeding the socket?

I don't know the aftermarket switches (although there are) that fit that engine.  Though, a PO might have used an NPT thread switch instead of the correct one and you probably would never know it. Maybe it needs a deep socket?

Would sticking a phone in there to snap a pic help ID the switch?

kk
Title: Re: Replacing oil pressure switch
Post by: Stu Jackson on July 09, 2017, 06:02:40 PM
Quote from: Stu Jackson on July 07, 2017, 07:33:47 PM
Ken,

Some years ago, a friend of mine purchased a used M25 engine to put into his Pearson 30 to replace an aging but still working A4.  He was clever: he put it on a dolly in his garage, ran  the inlet cooling water (properly) into a bucket, and the exhaust water went down his driveway!  :clap>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I'm on the boat this weekend without my portable hard drive with the pictures of my friend's engine on the dolly in his garage.  I'll post them when I get home on Monday.

Photos of our "untouchable, unseen" port side of the engine.

The oil pressure sensor is run to a hose which goes up a lot higher than I remembered, sneaking into the engine just under the manifold.  The cockpit panel shows the oil pressure gauge (on the right).  Before he put the engine and panel into his boat he removed the ammeter and replaced it with a voltmeter.
Title: Re: Replacing oil pressure switch
Post by: Stu Jackson on July 09, 2017, 06:03:49 PM
more photos
Title: Re: Replacing oil pressure switch
Post by: mregan on July 10, 2017, 05:34:11 PM
Went back down tonight with a multitude of sockets, short and deep.  None of them fit.  Thought I was going to get lucky with the 1 1/16" deep socket but no go.  Both the short and long are hitting the bottom of the manifold so they won't on the switch straight.  Going to bring the sockets to work and try to grind one side flat so it will slide under the manifold and fit straight on the switch.  I think if I can get the short socket on fully, it will be past the manifold and I'll be able to get it to work.  If that doesn't work, I can't think of anything else to do.
Title: Re: Replacing oil pressure switch
Post by: KWKloeber on July 10, 2017, 06:51:56 PM
Stu

Ok, "gauge sender" -- THAT clarifies that part. 
But sorry I must be dense.  Or CRS.  I put your post aside to see your pics and am still mis understanding what you claim about a "tractor" pressure sender (and what it has to do with a C-30 vs a C-34.)

I know of no other oil port on the D850 or D950 block.  Port or starboard or front or back, on a "tractor" engine or on a Kb genset engine.  See the tractor (pic #1) and genset (pic #2) oil ports below.  Same port that I explained to Matt in my post below.

(http://c34.org/wiki/images/c/cc/Tractor_oil_sw.jpg)
(http://c34.org/wiki/images/a/a4/Genset_oil.JPG)

There's no pressure gauge on a Kb tractor, at least that I have heard of.  (Admittedly) I haven't seen all Kb tractor parts manuals, but the half dozen or so that I have shows no pressure gauge -- and I have seen no (tractor) engine manual that has an oil pressure sender. 

The only "other" oil port (and that was on an M-25, not the XP, and not on tractors) is what I described to Matt.  And the remains of it is in your photos.  The bronze (signifying Universal, not Kb tractor) hose leading from the oil port was OEM on M-25s.  The machined block was OEM on the M25s.  Universal unscrewing the oil switch and installing the hose and NPT/JIS threaded block was part of its "marineizing" the Kb D-850 block.  See parts #11 and #20 below (in M-25 manual not Kb tractor manual.)

(http://c34.org/wiki/images/4/49/M-25-25XP_parts.jpg)

At some year (unbeknownst to me) Universal discontinued the system (but that's unrelated to a C-30 or a C-34 or a Catalina vs another manufacturer.)  Certainly, engines with a 3" Hx DO NOT have that block.  Saying that he had the remnant of a hanging hose, led me to believe it may be the "oil hose."  If I can see some pics, I might be of more help on that.

Regardless, on the C-34 vs C-30 comparison, if one can get at and switch out the Hx on a C-34, one can get at that OEM M-25 oil switch location -- it was on the SAME bracket (until Universal "moved it back" to the engine block.)  Although I know so little about how C-34 and C-30 engine installations differ, I BET right now Matt wishes he had the OEM M-25 oil block that I described (that you say won't work on your boats) because he'd have the switch out and replaced by now.

Why we have a idiot light/buzzer is because the engine came from Japan with only an oil switch.  It has nothing to do with Seaward/Bristol/CTY engineers, or removing something (for a C-34 install) that's on a tractor.  And I'm not sure how describing the OEM hose is disparaging anyone.  The reason we don't have a pressure sender and gauge comes down to two things 1) Universal didn't provide that option at that point in time (it did later), and 2) the chief Bean Counter didn't pay to add one.  It has nothing to do with the panel designer. manufacturer, or installer.  Fast forward - the shuttle blew up because not because of the designers, but the (political) bean counters who didn't listen to the designers.

Bottom line - I felt an oil gauge was worthwhile to add, and it can be done on the C-34 also. Not quite as easy as 1-2-3, but doable -- I did that this season on three M-25s/XPs.

kk
Title: Re: Replacing oil pressure switch
Post by: KWKloeber on July 10, 2017, 07:01:22 PM
Quote from: mregan on July 10, 2017, 05:34:11 PM
If that doesn't work, I can't think of anything else to do.

Matt an option is to remove the starter so that the oil switch is visible/accessible.  The starter is 2 bolts. 
"Thin wall" sockets are also made (or they used to be -- but that was years ago (actually decades) that I bought one!)

Interested to see pics of the hose you describe!

Ken
Title: Re: Replacing oil pressure switch
Post by: mregan on July 24, 2017, 07:37:46 AM
Finally, it's off  :clap.  Got a bunch of long sockets, 15/16, 1" 1/16" 1 1/8".  Cut them down so the socket part was whole but the rest of the socket was cut down so I could fit it under the engine manifold.  When trying to get the socket on the switch it would hit the engine manifold and not sit on the switch straight.  Tried all the sizes, the 1 1/16" fit but would slip a bit so figured the switch might be metric. 
Ended up finding a standard size 26mm socket, couldn't find a deep socket.  I was worried the front part of the switch would stick too far into the socket and prevent the ratchet handle from attaching so I cut down the 1" deep socket and welded it too the 26mm socket.  Tried it out on Sunday and worked like a charm.  I was still only able to turn the ratchet about 1/4 way before the socket would jam against the bottom of the engine manifold.  But turning it 1/4 turn, then removing and repositioning, I was able to get it off pretty quickly.

Replaced the switch with a Kubota 15841-39010 which seems to be the standard replacement switch.  This switch is 15/16".  Still had to use my deep 15/16" socket that I had to cut down to avoid the engine manifold  but it went in smooth.  I might have been able to get a short 15/16" socket with and extension on it to work but I didn't have on with me.
Big thanks to KWKloeber for all his help in my initial wiring confusion and then helping me trouble shoot the switch as the ultimate cause.

First picture is the old switch in the engine block.  Second picture is the old switch removed and the cut down/welded 26mm socket.  The 15/16" socket was cut down the same way.

Title: Re: Replacing oil pressure switch
Post by: KWKloeber on July 24, 2017, 07:50:30 AM
 Matt,

Congratulations.

It sure looks to me as if your manifold has dropped.    I would seriously look at doing some investigating to see if the top of it lines up correctly, it looks to me like maybe studs had loosened and it's sitting too low?

The switch should simply not be that tight as your photo shows.

The switch is straight Kabota from Japan, so I would ass/u/me that it is a metric size?  It appears to   Have been  the OEM switch.

Ken
Title: Re: Replacing oil pressure switch
Post by: KWKloeber on July 24, 2017, 10:25:54 AM
Matt

here is a pic (I believe it's the same extracted engine that Stu posted below).  It has the oil hose instead of the switch, but you can clearly see the threaded oil port -- there ***shouldn't be***  the issue that you had with the manifold hitting the socket.  Unless something is really wrong in there.

(http://c34.org/bbs/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5467.0;attach=1677;image)

ken
Title: Re: Replacing oil pressure switch
Post by: mregan on July 24, 2017, 11:03:38 AM
I'll try to take a better look next time I'm down at the boat.  Although I don't remember the manifold looking tilted or sagging when I'm looking at it.  I hope there nothing wrong with it, I've been using it as a step to get out of the cabin when I have stairs out of the way.
Title: Re: Replacing oil pressure switch
Post by: Catalina007 on March 09, 2021, 04:34:29 AM
Quote from: mregan on July 24, 2017, 07:37:46 AM
Finally, it's off  :clap.  Got a bunch of long sockets, 15/16, 1" 1/16" 1 1/8".  Cut them down so the socket part was whole but the rest of the socket was cut down so I could fit it under the engine manifold.  When trying to get the socket on the switch it would hit the engine manifold and not sit on the switch straight.  Tried all the sizes, the 1 1/16" fit but would slip a bit so figured the switch might be metric. 
Ended up finding a standard size 26mm socket, couldn't find a deep socket.  I was worried the front part of the switch would stick too far into the socket and prevent the ratchet handle from attaching so I cut down the 1" deep socket and welded it too the 26mm socket.  Tried it out on Sunday and worked like a charm.  I was still only able to turn the ratchet about 1/4 way before the socket would jam against the bottom of the engine manifold.  But turning it 1/4 turn, then removing and repositioning, I was able to get it off pretty quickly.

Replaced the switch with a Kubota 15841-39010 which seems to be the standard replacement switch.  This switch is 15/16".  Still had to use my deep 15/16" socket that I had to cut down to avoid the engine manifold  but it went in smooth.  I might have been able to get a short 15/16" socket with and extension on it to work but I didn't have on with me.
Big thanks to KWKloeber for all his help in my initial wiring confusion and then helping me trouble shoot the switch as the ultimate cause.

First picture is the old switch in the engine block.  Second picture is the old switch removed and the cut down/welded 26mm socket.  The 15/16" socket was cut down the same way.





Hi Matt,  I sent you a PM with details. Thanks again!