During our 10 day trip to Bahamas (Bimini), fellow sailors noted that we were ejecting a nasty flush of black goop out of our exhaust when we made a rapid increase in RPMs.
I have seen this on other boats and my interpretation of the cause is that the injectors are probably in need of service / replacement.
So, assuming (I know, I know!) that the problem could be the injectors, and I do not know if they have ever been serviced or replaced in the boat's 30 year history, then I should pull the injectors out and get them tested.
Step 1 is to remove the injectors.
I have seen the breakdown of the injector components elsewhere but do not know if any of the components are 'One Use Only' such as washers etc.
I believe that the process goes something like this (please comment)
- Work on a cold engine
- Lay out rags to capture any fuel spillage
- Remove the 2 fuel connectors between the 3 banjos
- Remove the supply tube to the aft most (#1 or #3?) injector
- Remove the tube from #3 or #1(Foremost) injector to the bleed screw
- Loosen and remove the injector pump tubes to each injector
- Loosen and remove the injectors
- Cover each hole as it is opened to prevent anything dropping into it
Is it that easy? (Ha!)
Here's an older pic of the injectors...
Paul
Replace the crush washer when you have tested/rebuilt/reinstall. Your diesel shop can supply em.
If you don't already have, it's a perfect time to invest in a set of metric "tubing/flare nut wrenches"
kk
Quote from: KWKloeber on June 01, 2017, 06:56:50 PM
Paul
Replace the crush washer when you have tested/rebuilt/reinstall. Your diesel shop can supply em.
If you don't already have, it's a perfect time to invest in a set of metric "tubing/flare nut wrenches"
kk
Sizes?
Do these sound about right?
6-pc. Flare Nut Wrench Set - Metric
Drop forged, heat treated, chrome plated carbon steel
15-degree offset for easy access
Ideal for gas, brake, and air conditioning lines
Sizes: 6 x 8, 10 x 12, 13 x 14, 15 x 17, 19 x 21, 22 x 24mm
Do I also need a Torque Wrench (perhaps crows feet wrenchs) if so, what size.
Thanks.
paul
Sure.
Theoretically right now all you need to buy the size on the injector nut. Don't ask, dunno.
But you know how it is with tools. They're good for just about 75% of the time that you'd use a [size=78%]metric [/size][/size][size=78%]open-end or box wrench. [/size]
[/size] For 15 boat bucks -20% coupon, why not go the full Monty?[size=78%]
Paul,
I did this job last year and found it to be very straightforward. I did it without any 'special' tools like a flare nut wrench or crows foot. The injectors I installed with a torque wrench and torqued to spec... the compression nuts on top were done by feel... you'll loosen them again to bleed anyway. I figure as long as they're not leaking they're fine. Note that a crow's foot does not work on a torque wrench; in that the torque setting will not be accurate because the center of effort is offset.
I also ordered new injectors online from a Kubota dealer... about $10-$15 more a piece that having them rebuilt but turned the whole thing into a one evening 3 beer job.
Thanks Alex, I'm going down to the boat today to measure the wrench sizes.
We have a Kubota dealer literally 10mins from our house and they have been very helpful on several occasions.
I already have the beer! 8)
Paul
Paul,
Do you have the KB part numbers? If not I can look them up or copy the parts page to you later on today/tonight.
k
PS. You can also get the parts aftermarket for a savings over the KB list prices.
http://c34.org/wikiwp/?rdp_we_resource=http%3A%2F%2Fc34.org%2Fwiki%2Findex.php%3Ftitle%3DManuals (http://c34.org/wikiwp/?rdp_we_resource=http%3A%2F%2Fc34.org%2Fwiki%2Findex.php%3Ftitle%3DManuals)
has the Kubota non-marinized parts list.
When I replaced my injectors I had to remove the valve cover, otherwise there wasn't enough room for the socket wrench to fit over the injector base. The wall of the socket was too wide. Probably could have found a thinner walled socket, but rather than run out again to the stores looking, I just took the valve cover off.
I also found a pile of carbon dust under each injector after removing them. I assume it fell off the injectors when I took them out. I vacuumed the dust out. So having a vacuum handy when you start the project might save some annoyance.
Regards,
Ed
Good points Ed.
When I purchased the Injectors yesterday, I asked if they had a tutorial on how to do it. 'Tommy' took me to a display mounted engine and showed the process.
He advised that there would probably be some carbon build up around where the injector screws in and to wipe it off using a kitchen scrubber (green thing) to remove it.
I'm heading down to the boat to make sure I have all the tools before starting the job. Once ready, I'll photograph all of the steps for posterity.
BTW, 'Tommy' said it was a very reliable engine that could be rebuilt forever! Dry Cylinder liners were easy to replace and the crank shaft could be ground and new, smaller bearings installed. He has 20+ years of working on them and in sales of their parts.
Paul
Paul : You could have saved yourself a lot of guessing if you had looked in the Mainsheet tech notes. I wrote an article and listed all the tools and step/checks needed to pull/reinstall the injectors.
With all the information published in the Mainsheet Tech Note for the last 30 years, why would you think you're the first one to take on ANY task???? Look there first and then in WiKi!!!
A few thoughts
Ron, I have read dozens of articles in the tech notes about the injectors, but did not find your article.
Is there an index that would narrow down the subject?
Paul
Paul the index is right above the "years listed" linked off the main homepage 'tech" link
http://c34.org/tech-noteswp/
i.e.,
http://c34.org/master-index/ (http://c34.org/master-index/)
Or the home page search box, also searches the tech articles.
Note injectors *should be* metric-sized wrenches, Kubota used no imperial sizes.
The only imperial sizes are the Universal "add-on marineizing."
kk
Ron, is this the article you referred to?
http://c34.org/mainsheet/pdf/11-99_Technotes.pdf (http://c34.org/mainsheet/pdf/11-99_Technotes.pdf)
Paul
Quote from: britinusa on June 03, 2017, 01:22:00 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Is there an index that would narrow down the subject?
Paul, Ron has, literally, "written it all." But he doesn't provide links :shock:. So what I did is described completely in excruciating detail in the sticky "
Too Much Information." You use the
Knowldegebase, which is a XLS spreadsheet the late former Commodore Jon Schneider and I cooked up and he maintained for a while. While it doesn't have everything (i.e., Tech Notes since he passed away) up to date, for say the past 5 - 7 years, it has most of the great "legacy" material. It's easy to search if you use the correct tab on the bottom (ctrl-F). I downloaded it years ago to my computer and use it to find stuff for folks. If you need more guidance on how to find and use it, please let me know.
Paul,
I just set up two older topics (Guide and Knowledgebase) as stickies so you can find the Knowledgebase faster. It's a link to the tech notes with the XLS spreadsheet to download. You could have gotten to those older topics through the "Too Much Info" topic, but this should make it easier for you.
Quote from: Ed Shankle on June 03, 2017, 05:41:55 AM
When I replaced my injectors I had to remove the valve cover, otherwise there wasn't enough room for the socket wrench to fit over the injector base. The wall of the socket was too wide. Probably could have found a thinner walled socket, but rather than run out again to the stores looking, I just took the valve cover off.
I also found a pile of carbon dust under each injector after removing them. I assume it fell off the injectors when I took them out. I vacuumed the dust out. So having a vacuum handy when you start the project might save some annoyance.
Regards,
Ed
Hi Ed,
When you did the job, and had to remove the valve cover, was the gasket still good, or did you already had it planned and had a new gasket in hand.
Patrice,
I reused the "gasket" since it was really an O ring. No subsequent leaking.
Regards,
Ed
When I pulled my cover, I replaced the gasket -- "just because"
It isn't like a typical valve cover that's thru-gasket bolted around the perimeter.
It may have been okay, but with the Kubota setup I asked myself, "Is the minimal cost worth taking the chance?"
kk
Guys: There is no reason to replace the "gasket" on the valve cover each time you remove the cover.
Reason - the "gasket" is really a square "O ring" that seats in a race in bottom edge of the valve cover!! Just make sure that where the "O" ring seats on the head that it's free of oil and you've cleaned (wiped) the oil off the "O" ring itself; when you put the valve cover back on. The "O ring" extends just outside the race so it compresses to seal when the cover is replaced and the retaining nuts tightened.
I probably have removed that valve cover on an M25XP 10 times - adjusting the valves/cleaning the sponge filter to the breather/
etc. etc. NEVER had a leak with using the same "O ring gasket".
I wrote this up in the Mainsheet tech Note back in the early 1990s!!
A few thoughts :thumb:
Guys : I also need to point out that the valve cover is made out of "pot metal" and does not need or should not be over tightened!
Word of caution -- thought
Hi,
thanks for the info.
Did not know it was O ring. Tought it was paper type gasket.
Update on injector change out progress.
'Tommy' from the Kubota store 10mins from our house, had shown me the process to replace the injectors. Included in his instruction (which took place standing next to a display kubota 3 pot engine) was the clear and definite instruction - Do not disturb the hex nut that sits directly on top of the Injector pump. (The one with the plastic cap on the left of the attached pic)
I was able to undo the one tube nut (obviously it's the missing tube) but the other two tube nuts are sized to the tubes and multiple doses of PB Blaster did nothing to help. Both the mid and aft tube nuts are seized to the injector pump hex fittings) So they are unreliable and I'm replacing them.
Returning to the Kubota shop, 'Tommy', and he has been really helpful, provided me with the breakdown of the pump and thus explained why those lower hex nuts should not be removed. The consequence of the engineering parts inside being disturbed would result in either needing a new pump or the pump be taken to a shop for rebuild. So I'm taking great care not to move those lower 'nuts'.
Sharing this just in case anyone else has a similar issue of the tube nuts being siezed. It's my intent to replace all 3 tubes (total cost is only $69.00)
Paul
Paul : Tommy is correct and there is no need to remove the fuel tubes from the injection pump to change out an injector. I believe I said that in my article!!
Just loosen the nut on the top of the injector and bend the tubes aside to get a socket on the injectors.
FYI, I also wrote an article on changing out the injection pump for the Mainsheet Tech Notes!!
A few thoughts
Thanks Ron,
I can see bending the tubes would work although that's quite a bend in order to get the injectors out.
New tubes will go in tomorrow.
Paul
Paul : The bending was easy and not really that hard to do.
Replaced the injectors 3 or 4 times in 5,000 hrs. and Once for the injection pump rebuild!!
A thought
Installed the new tubes to the Delivery Valve Holder (DVH) (The hex fitting that that the tube connects to at the Injection pump end of the tube)
I used one (of several) cans of compressed air to keep the work area clean and free of gold/blue paint chips and any dust around.
To remove the siezed tubes (Aft & Center) I used a wood chisel as a wedge between the DVH's in order to prevent the one being worked on from turning. That worked fine.
Problem - There is a fuel leak where the DVH screws into the top of the Injection pump housing. DRAT! That's the part that Tommy said ' Don't remove that part'.
Now I feel I have no choice. Looking at the Injection Pump Component Parts diagram (from Tommy) I'm guessing the problem is that the O-ring that seems to create the seal between the DVH and the Injector pump body needs to be replaced. It's part number is 14611-5120-0
Researching.
Any input would be most welcome.
Paul
What does Tommy say? He's the expert to rely on. The rest of us are just informed amateurs
Update. As Peggy (SWMBO) said, if you hear different stories from two different doctors, then consider them both.
Read Ron's Injector rebuild article, very helpful, and spoke with a Marine engine mechanic & two guys at the Kubota dealership.
Outcome: Don't mess around! If the Delivery Valve Holder is moved (rotated) then get the Injector pump retuned (rebuilt)
Apparently, moving the DVH in any direction will upset the timing. Which is pretty much what Ron says in his article.
Solution: New Injector pump is $580, but as Ron points out, there is a possibility that the 'New' pump may not fit the 'Old' engine, So rebuilding the pump is the more reliable process.
Notes: If you have to remove the Injector delivery tubes - DO NOT ALLOW THE DELIVERY VALVE HOLDER to rotate! Do what you have to to prevent it moving. The Marine mechanic suggested wedging them in pairs to prevent rotation.
Good news: Rebuilding the Injector Pump & Tuning all three delivery devices to consistent fuel flow is only $350. (Of course, had I been able to leave the delivery tubes in place and just bend them out of the way in order to replace the injectors, then I'd be $350 better off (ok, $350 plus what ever gaskets are needed to replace the injector pump and the air manifold.)
Having a decent Kubota dealer nearby is a huge value and having reliable diesel mechanics within 30 mins of the boat is another. Having folks, like Ron, on this site is huge!
Thanks. Will report progress.
Paul
Ron, I have read your article (http://www.c34.org/projects/projects-fixing-injection-pump.htm (http://www.c34.org/projects/projects-fixing-injection-pump.htm) until I can almost memorize it.
Also, looking at the Universal M25-XP manual I can see how the Injection pump is mounted with the 4 bolts.
Before I take it off, is there anything I should do regarding positional rotation of the crank shaft or will the rebuilt pump just drop in and self align with the cams on the Fuel Cam Shaft?
Paul
Update: Successfully removed the Injection Pump pretty much as Ron described in his Mainsheet Article (In the Tech Wiki)
The pump has been serviced and I'm ready to clean up the engine and replace it.
There is a 'Timing Shim' that sits between the Pump and the engine body. There is no material gasket either above or below the Timing Shim.
On the engine surface, there is a residue of what appears to be a liquid gasket. It's a really thin film that can be scraped off. I have not picked up the Pump from the service company yet, but I'm guessing that there is a similar film on the underside of the pump.
Soooo. Any suggestions on the type of liquid gasket to use on both surfaces of the shim?
Thanks.
Paul
Paul,
Before you reinstall the pump look for your Kabota engine serial number. It is supposedly stamped into the injection pump land. I've never found mine and I'm not sure I know any Who has, but if you can find it it's good info to keep in your pocket.
Have you checked the engine service manual for re-install instructions?
Paul : My article should have also describe how I reinstalled it.
As I recall I didn't use ANY liquid gasket material. I just reseated the pump on the same seat. I believe the shims just lifted off . It never leak any oil after being seated "as is".
I made sure that I reused the same shims so the timing would remain the same!!
I also noted that the engine type and SN # was stamped on the injection pump seat on the engine block.
A few thoughts
Paul
from the Westerbeke service manual
NOTE FOR REASSEMBLING: Install the injection pump by aligning the control rack with the
indicated positon. Addition or reduction of one shim delays or advances the injection timing by
0.0262 rad. (1.50). Install the injection pump shims after applying thinly a non-drying adhesive.
A "non drying" adhesive. hmmmmmm I wonder what that could be.
kk
Ok, Ken, I'm ignorant on what it might be!
Any ideas?
Paul
A pic of the top surface of the engine block where the Injector pump sits.
AHHHH and the elusive Kubota serial number. Put that in the bank!!
Nah, not sure what would be forever not drying adhesive. Have no idea why it should be non drying anyway.
That's in all the Kb manuals, though -- your Kb guy might have a clue.
OR find out what they use to make flypaper!!!
kk
It's my understanding that area is low pressure, oil drenched, lubrication.
And, not sure if they (Kubota) thought that pump would be serviced more frequently than every 30 years :D
And not sure what temperature it gets to.
So, as it should not dry, it sounds like a lubricant (although their description is close to Butyl tape - not going there!)
Perhaps Lanocote? - seems to be the solution for everything else :D
Paul
Permatex aviation form-a-gasket is concidered a non hardening gasket sealer. Although, in my
experience, it comes pretty close to getting hard after awhile. Any auto parts store carries it.
Guys : If you understand how the injection pump timing is changed, then you'll understand why I elected to rebuild rather than buy a new pump!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I would NOT recommend buying a new pump - go for the rebuild.
As I said the removal and reinstallation of the injection pump is straight FWD - no big deal. I did it by myself with nothing written and no Web site to ask!!!!
A few thoughts
As mentioned, I went for the rebuild. Got it back from the injector company today, all setup, cleaned up and painted purdy.
Started putting everything together and one of the Air Intake Bolts sheared ... .Geeeez.
I was able to get the stub out using a pair of grips and can get the replacement bolt tomorrow.
Schedule forbids doing much until Monday :( but hopefully all will go well then.
Paul