I have searched all over and have yet to find an answer. I'm sure it's out there and I risk getting scolded but I'm asking anyway. Upgrading batteries to 4 6v Trojan T 145's. I plan on keeping my 1-2-both switch factory set for now and will not run alt directly to main bank. I need to buy a small emergency battery (starting battery). Because I plan on using the main bank for everything, including starting, should my back up be a small "starting" battery or a small "deep cycle" battery. The smaller the better as I may try and fit it on the Starboard side of the water heater. Is group 24 too small if it's just a backup to get the engine running?
Excuse the dirt you see in the picture. The boat is brand new to me and needs a good cleaning.
Quote from: Stucker on April 01, 2017, 10:11:13 AM
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The smaller the better as I may try and fit it on the Starboard side of the water heater. Is group 24 too small if it's just a backup to get the engine running?
That will be just fine.
How do you resist the temptation?
I get suckered into every mod I can do 'While I'm in there' :?
Paul
I installed a group 24 650 CCA as a reserve battery on position 2 of the 1-2-B switch. Have only used it a couple times in the beginning as a test but it started the m25xp easily. When time to replace it I will look for higher CCA for more margin.
That is the same size (flooded, sealed, maintenance-free) battery I have as my primary engine "start battery"and it can be combined with my house (4) T-105s in an emergency. It works fine.
I put in the T 125 Trojan batteries and the T 105 are the same height. Thought the T 145 were to tall. Might check the height of these.
Paul
Quote from: Stucker on April 01, 2017, 10:11:13 AM
I have searched all over and have yet to find an answer. I'm sure it's out there and I risk getting scolded but I'm asking anyway. Upgrading batteries to 4 6v Trojan T 145's. I plan on keeping my 1-2-both switch factory set for now and will not run alt directly to main bank for now. I need to buy a small emergency battery (starting battery). Because I plan on using the main bank for everything, including starting, should my back up be a small "starting" battery or a small "deep cycle" battery. The smaller the better as I may try and fit it on the Starboard side of the water heater. Is group 24 too small if it's just a backup to get the engine running?
Excuse the dirt you see in the picture. The boat is brand new to me and needs a good cleaning.
Your going to spend the time and money to install a battery you may never use for the peace of mind knowing it's there if you need it. You can accomplish that to a large extent with a battery jump starter without all the wiring your currently planning. If you install so the start battery is used for each start, your essentially adding amp hrs to your house bank...but as Stu says' YBYC. Am I mistaken or is that the battery box in the picture? What is the water heater doing in there? Normally, the water heater is under the galley sink.
Also, keep in mind your batteries should be in a sealed acid proof enclosure. Refer to mainsail's post.
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,9360.30.html
Quote from: mark_53 on April 01, 2017, 04:13:40 PMWhat is the water heater doing in there? Normally, the water heater is under the galley sink.
He has a Mark II.
Scott,
We had a MkII as well (#1602). We took out our 2 massive 4D battereis and replaced them with 4 - 6volt. I had to build a custom tray for them to sit in, and then we built a small shelf on the outboard side of the hot water tank to hold a Canadian Tire Marine battery as a spare. I think it was a 31 (don't quote me thou). I then upgraded our charger. Got rid of the Flyback charger and installed a ProMariner ProNautic 12-40P charger. Still wanted to fix the alternator wiring, but still haven't go to it. I've been meaning to post picture of it, but haven't had time to do the write up that I had planned to do, but here are some of the pics...
First the battery tray shots.
Once the tray was in place, I lined the bottom with rubber and the edges with flexible wire casing. Because the form was built up from cardboard replicas of the battery foot print, they fit in nice and snug, without any wiggle room.
Four (4) D-bolts, two in the floor plate and two in the galley bulkhead acted as anchor points for tie down straps.
The existing charger we removed, as well as its mounting plate and trash bin shelf. Cut an opening and installed a four sided box in behind the opening. The box was open to the bottom to allow the wire to go down and under the galley bulkhead into the battery locker.
You can just see the spare battery beyond. I though i took more picture of it, just still need to find them. And that's the old Flyback charger over there by the trash bin.
...and the box for the charger, also acts as the new shelf for the trash bin.
Really nice work Fred.
I second Jon's comment regarding Fred's work. I don't see, though, an answer posted to the original Q of whether a starting battery is preferred over a deep cycle type. That answer is that a starting type is definitely the right one for your application. It will give you more starting omph for a given size.
Jeremy
Note: Starting-type batteries are optimized for max short-term cranking amps (using a higher number of thinner plates to maximize surface area). Deep discharge batteries have a smaller number of thicker plates and handle repeated deep discharge better.
Quote from: Fred Koehlmann on April 01, 2017, 09:28:08 PM
Once the tray was in place, I lined the bottom with rubber and the edges with flexible wire casing. Because the form was built up from cardboard replicas of the battery foot print, they fit in nice and snug, without any wiggle room.
Four (4) D-bolts, two in the floor plate and two in the galley bulkhead acted as anchor points for tie down straps.
Wow! You're hired. How much to get you to 1000 Islands to do the exact sme thing for me :clap
You could sell those trays;). Thank you for posting all of those great pictures. I would love to see the shelf you built for the fifth outer battery. I'm not the handiest of wood workers so I love copying other peoples good ideas.
A couple of questions. Why did you remove the wood divider between the main bank and water heater? Also, why did you feel the need to upgrade chargers?
Like you, I'm in Toronto and my boat is 2.5 hours away so it gets tough to get these projects done.
Thanks for your advice.
Scott
Quote from: J_Sail on April 01, 2017, 09:59:12 PM
I second Jon's comment regarding Fred's work. I don't see, though, an answer posted to the original Q of whether a starting battery is preferred over a deep cycle type. That answer is that a starting type is definitely the right one for your application. It will give you more starting omph for a given size.
Jeremy
Note: Starting-type batteries are optimized for max short-term cranking amps (using a higher number of thinner plates to maximize surface area). Deep discharge batteries have a smaller number of thicker plates and handle repeated deep discharge better.
Thanks. I was actually curious if one would stand up to not being used for long periods of time over the other?
Quote from: Stucker on April 02, 2017, 05:56:39 AM>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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Also, why did you feel the need to upgrade chargers?
Scott,
You need to re-read the Critical Upgrades topic. Those old Flyback chargers are dangerous.
Thanks Scott,
I didn't post all the details for building the tray, since this post isn't about that. If you plan to do something similiar, I can discuss with you further on a different thread or offline.
As for a divider between the batteries and hot water tank, our boat did not have one. It only had a 2x4 across the top to hold the beasts down. (see picture)
As for the charger, there was some concern with respect to that particular model. Personally we did experience any issue (thankfully), but the new charger is considerable better and does a better job of charging and maintaining the battery. As Stu suggested, please review the critical/highly recommended upgrades online. I'd focus on them first.
Cheers, Fred.
Oh, almost forgot. The "spare" was a type 31. It does fit into that starboard space beside the HW tank (at least for us). There is a bit of juggling when building the shelf. Too low and its not wide enough, too high and there is no room for the battery height and the terminal connections. I do a lot of figuring out with card board mock-ups.
Quote from: Fred Koehlmann on April 02, 2017, 12:52:20 PM
Oh, almost forgot. The "spare" was a type 31. It does fit into that starboard space beside the HW tank (at least for us). There is a bit of juggling when building the shelf. Too low and its not wide enough, too high and there is no room for the battery height and the terminal connections. I do a lot of figuring out with card board mock-ups.
Thanks Fred!
Quote from: Stucker on April 02, 2017, 05:59:10 AM
Thanks. I was actually curious if one would stand up to not being used for long periods of time over the other?
If kept charged, either will keep years without being used. It's sitting discharged that kills batteries. A type 24 maintenance-free flooded-type automotive starter battery is dirt cheap and should last many years. If you don't want to worry about the very remote possibility of acid leakage should it be tipped over or crack, then you could get an AGM-type for more money, but I would still go with the automotive starter-version rather than marine deep-cycle. You should make sure, though, that your charger is configured for whatever battery you use, as some require slightly different charing voltages, and it makes a difference in their lifetime. MaineSail has published excellent articles on the topic.
Jeremy
Quote from: Stucker on April 02, 2017, 05:59:10 AM
Thanks. I was actually curious if one would stand up to not being used for long periods of time over the other?
Jeremy's right.
Any battery will last longer if fully charged and then left to rest. Continuous "float" charging is not necessarily good for batteries, hence, the newer chargers can actuallly cycle themselves.
No difference between deep cycle and starting types.
You may want to refresh your research by going over the Electrical Systems 101 topic and reading the Ample Power Primer (link provided in that topic). It discusses basic battery operation and how you can best keep them healthy and long lasting.
Quote from: Stu Jackson on April 03, 2017, 04:39:27 AM
Quote from: Stucker on April 02, 2017, 05:59:10 AM
Thanks. I was actually curious if one would stand up to not being used for long periods of time over the other?
Jeremy's right. Any battery will last longer if fully charged and then left to rest. Continuous "float" charging is not necessarily good for batteries, hence, the newer chargers can actuallly cycle themselves.
No difference between deep cycle and starting types.
You may want to refresh your research by going over the Electrical Systems 101 topic and reading the Ample Power Primer (link provided in that topic). It discusses basic battery operation and how you can best keep them healthy and long lasting.
What is the go to charger today that passes everyone's test?
Quote from: Stucker on April 01, 2017, 10:11:13 AM
Is group 24 too small if it's just a backup to get the engine running?
It's "JUST" a backup battery. That is, until you happen to need it, and then I'd want as much ooomph as I can fit/reasonably afford.
I ran a Grp 24, and found for my M-25, it didn't give me the peace of mind I wanted. Too weak, so I switched to a Grp 27. Now I have (3) Grp 31s for house and starting. JTSO, YBYC, YMMV, etc.
The ProMariner ProNautic-P series are excellent chargers.
kk
May depend on the engine and the battery. My 25XP cranks great everytime with my group 24 start battery.
Took my boat out today. Thought of this post so started my M25XP with my Group 24 reserve battery. First time I used it in ~1 year. It started the engine just like the 4 x T105 house bank.
from the Electrical Systems 101 Topic
Engine Starting Loads - Amp Draw Data (by Maine Sail)
http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=102027
One critical item that MaineSail and others have written about, but has not been mentioned here, is the importance of using heavy enough battery cables. Undersized cables reduce the voltage available at the starter motor and can easily cause someone to think they don't have a big enough battery. Depending on length, the appropriate gauge generally works out between 1AWG and 00 (2/0)AWG. There is plenty written on the topic so I won't repeat here.
Also, while MaineSail correctly makes the point that a deep-cycle battery is more than capable of serving as a starting battery, it offers no important benefits in that role. If the price were the same, I'd say get the deep-cycle. But the price is not the same and the starting-type battery is both cheaper and has slightly greater cranking amp output for the same case size. While, it is true that deep cycle batteries last longer in abusive environments, I have not seen any data to support the contention that they last longer in reserve situations, when keep fully charged. So I still recommend a starting battery for a reserve engine starting role, but the differences (other than cost) are trivial, so go with whichever you feel like and enjoy the peace of mind that you have a reserve.
Quote from: J_Sail on April 04, 2017, 09:02:54 PM
One critical item that MaineSail and others have written about, but has not been mentioned here, is the importance of using heavy enough battery cables. Undersized cables reduce the voltage available at the starter motor and can easily cause someone to think they don't have a big enough battery. Depending on length, the appropriate gauge generally works out between 1AWG and 00 (2/0)AWG. There is plenty written on the topic so I won't repeat here.
Also, while MaineSail correctly makes the point that a deep-cycle battery is more than capable of serving as a starting battery, it offers no important benefits in that role. If the price were the same, I'd say get the deep-cycle. But the price is not the same and the starting-type battery is both cheaper and has slightly greater cranking amp output for the same case size. While, it is true that deep cycle batteries last longer in abusive environments, I have not seen any data to support the contention that they last longer in reserve situations, when keep fully charged. So I still recommend a starting battery for a reserve engine starting role, but the differences (other than cost) are trivial, so go with whichever you feel like and enjoy the peace of mind that you have a reserve.
When considering battery
type for a start/reserve battery, that may just sit there and do nothing, there are two factors to consider.
Starting &
reserve/emergency ships power use..
#1 If I need it in an emergency can it start my engine.?For any decent quality group 24 battery, including a "pseudo deep cycle" this answer is most always yes. If it can't, you have other issues or an unhealthy battery. For Kubota's tractors utilizing larger HP ranges than our boats, (32HP to 46HP) Kubota specs batteries with CCA ratings between 447CCA and 490CCA. A Deka G-24 "deep cycle" has 500CCA, a Trojan G-24 "deep cycle" has 530CCA (SCS-150), a Crown 24T-1000 G-24 marine "deep cycle" has 500CCA. Any deep cycle G27 would have even more.
#2 If I need it for an emergency house bank failure, then what?By utilizing a "deep cycle" battery as your reserve battery you can actually cycle them, in an emergency, when you have to. A starting battery will give up very quickly when placed into emergency house bank use and will, in many cases be substantially impacted. I know of many who have had this happen over the years and the ones with starting batteries as a back up were quite disappointed at their choice, when they actually needed it.
It is a pretty rare situation where I will install a "starting battery" on a sailboat. There's just no need to. A deep cycle product can serve both scenarios above where a starter can only really serve scenario #1. The cost difference at my Crown and Deka dealers, between a 24 or 27 DC vs. starting is within $8.00 - $12.00. If I max out a G-24 for CCA, 650CCA to 875CCA, then the start battery actually costs more than the DC.
I get to deal quite a bit with
go-fast offshore fishing boats. One of the highest internal battery failure rates, internal shorts, I see are in "marine starting" batteries including G-24, 27, 31 & 4D & 8D.
I accept that in a full-fledged emergency where for some reason you cannot run the engine (or the alternator is dead), then the ability to deep cycle the reserve battery without worrying about damaging would warrant the few extra bucks for a marine deep cycle battery. For the day sailor more worried about discovering that the house bank is simply dead from operator neglect, it shouldn't matter.
But MaineSail has far more experience, and reliability/safety in a real emergency matters. I defer to his judgment.
An alternative theory:
A reserve battery that is an automobile battery is admittedly less expensive and can be replaced by almost any source: AutoZone, Napa, PepBoys, etc., whereas I buy my deep cycles from American or US Battery (admittedly not as true deep cycle as golf carts).
A reserve battery is used to start an engine if the house bank fails, and, as I have written many, many times, to support LIMITED house loads until the house bank can be repair/replaced.
What this means to me is that
---- you CAN run your fridge and anything else with just the reserve bank as long as you run your engine just like your car
---- you must be judicious when your engine is NOT running as to the house loads you choose to run; turn off the fridge, but run instruments
Once the engine is running, the system doesn't really care much what kind of battery you have in the middle.
Quote from: Paulus on April 01, 2017, 02:02:17 PM
I put in the T 125 Trojan batteries and the T 105 are the same height. Thought the T 145 were to tall. Might check the height of these.
Paul
There was plenty of space in my Mk II for the T 145's. They are less than an inch taller than the T 125's.