So it looks as though I need to clean out the fuel tank.
We have about 18gallons on board right now so I plan on burning that off over the next 10 days. Just replaced the 2mic Racor fuel filter and can see particulate in the bowl with fuel flow.
? - Does the fuel tank have baffles inside?
Paul
No need to be baffled about this, Paul.
It's one big box.
Paul- AGAIN I will say I'm not an engine guy, but something seems strange that you see "visible particulate" in your Racor bowl and how it got past your just changed 2 micron filter??
Paul : Look at the old Mainsheet tech notes for an article I wrote on removing and cleaning a C34 fuel tank.
Yes, there is one baffle about in the middle of the tank. There is a cutout on the bottom of the baffle so the fuel flow under it!
You don't need to burn off the fuel. You can pump it out by removing the output line (from pump to tank) and plug in another longer 3/8" line and run it to 5 gallon fuel tanks. If your fuel system is plumbed correctly - Fuel tank to Filter to Pump - the fuel will get filtered so it's usable again.
A few thoughts
Noah : Check your fuel system fuel routing. If your filter is before the pump you may what to change it to the other way around and have the pump receive filtered fuel.
That way the pump can't get clogged up with junk!! :cry4`
Many posts on this very topic!!!
A thought
RON- mine IS set up properly in the correct sequence, I have no problems. I have a new Racor Series 500 turbine with a shut off valve. My system set up is not the problem. I was commenting on PAUL's comment/problem who said he had to clean his tank because he saw stuff in his bowl that got past his 2 Micron filter. That is what sounded confusing...his symptons not mine!
Hi Paul,
I cleaned my tank a few years ago per the "Ron Hill method". Pulling the fuel tank out was not a problem. To drain the fuel, I disconnected the fuel delivery hose and placed it in a 20 litre (5USG) yellow diesel fuel container. I had three of them and it used them all half filling the last one. The tank is definitely baffled and access into my tank through the fuel level sender flange was quite limited since the flange is so small. I think I went through about 3 litres of acetone. Likely overkill but the boat was relatively new to me at the time and it seemed prudent to overkill the cleaning since it involves some labour to pull the fuel tank out and I didn't want to do it twice.
Sediment / particulate the you see in the bowl is likely in the water that has separated from the fuel - one of the main functions of the Racor fuel filter. If you open the drain cock on the bowl of the fuel filter, the water should drain out into a suitable container and you should see clean and clear fuel left in the bowl. Hopefully this is clear. (Both the fuel and my comments! :D ). I have a few pictures that I'll look for and post them if you like.
Thanks Guys.
IMHO - The fuel passes through the filter from bottom to top. And that's why the particulate is in the bowl and not in the fuel pump.
Just to repeat an earlier post
My fuel route is Tank -> Fuel Shut of Valve (on top of tank) -> Racor 2mic (R12S) filter -> Fuel Pump -> Engine mounted Fuel Filter -> Fuel Inector Pump
I had figured out the method of draining (and cleaning) the fuel from the tank by disconnecting the pump output and replacing it with a hose to the 5 Gallon Diesel Jug.
As the tank has a baffle (thanks for replying to that one too), I'll take the tank out (after draining it as above) and bring it home. Cleaning it is not something I want to try aboard the boat.
Paul
Quote from: KWKloeber on March 16, 2017, 02:23:38 PM
No need to be baffled about this, Paul.
It's one big box.
Strange! Mine has no baffle. For sure, had it out.
k
Mine (1990) has a baffle as well.
In California, they have dockside fuel polishing services that come to you that some Forum folks have used. I believe Jon W. did? I recall someone else up in the Long Beach/LA harbor area has experience with this as well from a past post. Not sure of their cost or success in true cleaning the tank and fuel.
Quote from: KWKloeber on March 16, 2017, 03:56:25 PM
Quote from: KWKloeber on March 16, 2017, 02:23:38 PM
No need to be baffled about this, Paul.
It's one big box.
Strange! Mine has no baffle. For sure, had it out.
k
Just a reminder. You have a different boat with probably a different tank. I've' had mine out twice, easy as long as there's only a few gallons in it.
Hi Paul,
You have likely figured this out already but here are some pictures of my fuel tank removal for cleaning from several years ago. Different boats may have a different configuration but the job was surprisingly easy. (something rarely said about boat projects! :?)
Four hoses; Fuel Fill, Fuel Vent, Fuel Pump Suction, Fuel Pump Return. Two wires; Fuel Level Sender and Ground. And several screws fore and aft of the tank.
Lazybone is right - it is easy to remove the tank and get it off the boat without spilling any fuel even if there are a few litres of diesel left sloshing around the bottom of the tank.
I checked my records and I used 8 litres of Acetone, not 3 litres as I said in my earlier post. As I recall, I used half for a first cleaning and after shaking the tank around and dumping the acetone (it wasn't really all that dirty), I repeated the process with clean acetone. Have a container ready to catch the used acetone.
Wasn't me, I haven't had my fuel tank cleaned yet. I will be sometime this year. I am thinking of having access ports put in the top to clean the tank myself.
Access ports wold be very useful Jon. I was tempted to put one in when I had my tank out to be cleaned but since it wasn't too dirty and the risk / reward analysis of cutting a hole in my perfectly good fuel tank didn't look to good, I passed.
If I did that my thought was to locate it at the low spot (at rest) and on the plate install a dip tube, valve, and hose barb where I could suck accumulated H2O out of the low spot.
Ron, Thanks for your write-up. When you cleaned your fuel tank you found pouring in acetone and swished around is all that's needed? No need to scrub/scrape the inside to clean it?
Quote from: Dave Spencer on March 17, 2017, 10:21:19 AM
Hi Paul,
You have likely figured this out already but here are some pictures of my fuel tank removal for cleaning from several years ago. Different boats may have a different configuration but the job was surprisingly easy. (something rarely said about boat projects! :?)
Four hoses; Fuel Fill, Fuel Vent, Fuel Pump Suction, Fuel Pump Return. Two wires; Fuel Level Sender and Ground. And several screws fore and aft of the tank.
Lazybone is right - it is easy to remove the tank and get it off the boat without spilling any fuel even if there are a few litres of diesel left sloshing around the bottom of the tank.
I checked my records and I used 8 litres of Acetone, not 3 litres as I said in my earlier post. As I recall, I used half for a first cleaning and after shaking the tank around and dumping the acetone (it wasn't really all that dirty), I repeated the process with clean acetone. Have a container ready to catch the used acetone
Fresh diesel fuel is an excellent cleaner and much cheaper than acetone. Getting rid of diesel is also much easier, just put in in to your or someone you know home heating oil tank. Use a coffee filter or a wad of tee-shirt first.
Paul,
Do you know if the tank has ever been replaced? If it hasn't, you probably should give it a good inspection externally around the base, particularly the welded joints. It can develop pinhole leaks if water has been in there and not picked up by the tube or emulsified. Would be a drag to do all that work only to find the tank needs repair/replacement.
Regards,
Ed
Or, wait a few months and just burn it in a pit on the beach--the NEW EPA won't mind and I don't believe the USCG will have the funds to bust you either!
Hysteria from California :D
All : In my Mainsheet Tech note article I mentioned that the first solvent I put in the tank was alcohol to assimilate any water that may had been inside. Then I used the acetone to clean any junk from the bottom and sides and repeated that until I could pour out clean acetone on the cement driveway.
The baffle prohibits the use of a pressure washer although I did try it thru the fill pipe and the fuel gage hose - for what it might have been worth. The acetone seemed (with an inspection mirror to do the job!!
From what Ken says - the C30 tank apparently does NOT have a baffle.
A few thoughts
A little off subject. I've been thinking of making a fuel polisher. Using a like electric fuel pump, and whatever economical filter. I think a dip tube into the fuel gauge plate to get to the tank bottom and a return to the top. I think using this when the boat is still on the hard and the fuel has settled for the off season would work very well.
Has anybody made one? Parts? and Cost?
Jim
Jim : Don't try to "reinvent the wheel" look in the Mainsheet tech notes.
Both Hank Recla and Bill Nuttall have written articles on the "Fuel Polisher" that they made!!
A thought
Thanks everyone.
Ron, great write up. http://www.c34.org/projects/projects-fuel-tank-cleaning-sender-replacement.html
With 2 spare filters onboard, we just completed a 100mile cruise to biscayne bay and have an accumulation of tank debris in the bowl.
Watching the fuel flow in the bowl, I could see the particulates swirling around and eventually settling on the bottom.
I checked the bowl regularly but the accumulation was slow.
I'll follow Ron process taking lots a pics. I had previously replaced the non functioning sender with the magnetic model who has worked great.
Down to 50% fuel Guage level, which should be something around 12 gallons of fuel in the tsnk.
I hope to be able to collect the goop .
We have a local gov. Drop off for dirty fuel & oil, so that won't be an issue.
? The return hose should be clean, but the tank to filter hose not so. I'll probably replace it.
Any idea how much the rank weighs empty?
Tia.
Paul
Paul : The tank empty (with some residual fuel you can't get out) is only about 15 lbs?? Not very heavy!!
15lbs - great - easy peasy
The tank is #5 in my project list.
Paul
My tank has baffles. I siphoned the tank empty with it's own fuel lines into a 5 gal diesel can in the head.
I then emptied the rest by shaking upside down into a tray. Then I put a gallon of simple green in the tank and put the tank in the back of my truck for most of the winter driving all over Western NY Pennsylvania and Ohio for work. Rinsed with water and then rinsed with a 1 gal pot of boiling water twice. Left it in the sun to dry. Clean as a whistle.
Quote from: Indian Falls on March 30, 2017, 02:39:07 PM
My tank has baffles. I siphoned the tank empty with it's own fuel lines into a 5 gal diesel can in the head.
I then emptied the rest by shaking upside down into a tray. Then I put a gallon of simple green in the tank and put the tank in the back of my truck for most of the winter driving all over Western NY Pennsylvania and Ohio for work. Rinsed with water and then rinsed with a 1 gal pot of boiling water twice. Left it in the sun to dry. Clean as a whistle.
That method sounds good and I have family in Ohio! :wink:
Paul
Update.
Looks like it was a good decision to pull the tank for cleaning.
While looking at how to disconnect the fuel fill hose at the tank, I found that the hose has hundreds of splits around the outer cover and one along the cover about 8" from the tank.
Cleaned out the tank as Indian Falls suggested (just drove around locally - kidding!)
I found a lot of grit in the tank, a few chunks of jello-ish stuff, but mostly grit from can't see individual specs up to about 1/2" They're in the bottle that is settling right now.
In the morning I'm going to get the fuel hose and a big jug of sea Foam to washout the tank which has the residue from the simple green.
Paul
Fuel Hose. 1 1/2" Internal Diameter, Diesel Below Deck.
Didn't realize there would be such wide range of types that cover those simple requirements.
Any recommendations?
Paul
Quote from: britinusa on April 08, 2017, 04:03:36 PM
Update.
Looks like it was a good decision to pull the tank for cleaning.
While looking at how to disconnect the fuel fill hose at the tank, I found that the hose has hundreds of splits around the outer cover and one along the cover about 8" from the tank.
Cleaned out the tank as Indian Falls suggested (just drove around locally - kidding!)
I found a lot of grit in the tank, a few chunks of jello-ish stuff, but mostly grit from can't see individual specs up to about 1/2" They're in the bottle that is settling right now.
In the morning I'm going to get the fuel hose and a big jug of sea Foam to washout the tank which has the residue from the simple green.
Paul
The jello stuff is caused by additives that claim they get rid of water in your tank. They're not lying because its no longer water. :?
Thanks Lazybones, hadn't thought about that!
Documenting as I go, does this look about right?
Paul : looks correct!! Tank, Racor, Lift pump, Engine filter, Injection pump.
Quote from: britinusa on April 09, 2017, 08:23:45 AM
Thanks Lazybones, hadn't thought about that!
Documenting as I go, does this look about right?
If you wanted, you could add the injectors on the high pressure feed and their bleed off to the return line.
How's this.
Paul
I recommend Shields series 355 hose to customers. You should pay about $7.50 - $8.00 a foot.
ken
Quote from: britinusa on April 09, 2017, 05:23:08 AM
Fuel Hose. 1 1/2" Internal Diameter, Diesel Below Deck.
Didn't realize there would be such wide range of types that cover those simple requirements.
Any recommendations?
Paul
Quote from: britinusa on April 09, 2017, 07:06:18 PM
How's this.
Paul
Does your fuel level sender also have a ground wire in addition to the tank bond? Some do.
You could add the XP fuel bleed valve "loop" to your schematic if you want to get more precise.
Without making any comment either way, I'll note that many mechanics/owners recommend against a 2u primary filter, in favor is a 10u. Note also that, if it's a Racor primary, its "2u" cartridge is not "2u" -- it is actually "4u" (99% or better at 4u) by today's rating methods. Several years ago I did a desktop study of some top manufacturers that I was considering using and their diesel filter efficiencies. Parker said the Racor "2u" is,
get this, "
more of a marketing name than a designation based on test data." :shock: :shock: Translated: "It's our filter, and we'll call it whatever the hell we want to."
The secondary filter efficiencies hovered around 97% to 99% at 20u to 25u. The Kubota/Universal had the lowest efficiency. :cry: Fleetguard the highest (recommended by my Kb dealer at the time,) :thumb: :thumb: and Fram second best. :thumb:
Wix (NAPA) and Purolator would not provide test results. :x
Since it's "on-engine" the secondary will probably never reach it's rated efficiency because the filter cake (which contributes to the filtering capacity) is constantly being disturbed by the engine vibration. It's on my list to mount mine off engine "just because."
cheers,
Ken
Dang, ordered the hose and its $17 plf. :?
The sender does have a -ve connection that is wired to my Bonding block (thank you!)
There was a so-so bonding wire on the old plastic fitting (that I'm probably going to reuse) The wire went from the bonding tab on the top of the tank, then up the outside of the hose to the deck fill end.
Then it was stripped for about 4". The stripped wire was tucked inside between the hose and the plastic fitting, then it was turned backup inside the plastic fitting so that it could be seen by looking down the deck fill.
I"m vary familiar with the concept of static discharge through refueling hoses. In the Navy we would always plug in an earth bonding wire that stretched from the fuel station to the aircraft prior to connecting the fuel pressure hose to the aircraft.
To facilitate that process on our boat, I think I would have to have a bonding point where I could attach a wire to the fueling station. That's not going to happen - I should think every marine fuel station would freak out if I wanted to run my earth line to their fuel pump :shock:
As it happens, when I was at WM to get the hose yesterday (didn't have any, had to place an order that will arrive tomorrow) I met with a Marine Surveyor that asked what I was working on. I told him I was replacing the fuel fill hose and was buying a Stainless steel deck fill as I expected the old one to fall apart on removal. He advised me that they (surveyors) now have to inspect for a bonding line if the fuel deck fill is stainless steel.
Not sure if he knew it was Diesel, but he did know it was a sailboat.
I had posted a blog article earlier that day where I mentioned I was going to install a bonding wire from the deck fill to the -ve earth bus block by the engine.
The new stainless deck fill has a smaller outside diameter than the plastic one, and only about 1/2 of each screw hole will touch the rim of the old hole. So I'll have to make a flange if I want to use the Stainless fitting.
Just a 20 minute job.
:D
Paul
Added Bleed Screw.
And listing Material Data.
Just read the maintenance routines in the Universal manual (Don't beat me!)
QuoteChange the Fuel Pipes & Clamps every 2 years
The hose has 1985 on it!!!!!
Paul
Quote from: britinusa on April 10, 2017, 03:03:57 PM
Just read the maintenance routines in the Universal manual (Don't beat me!)
QuoteChange the Fuel Pipes & Clamps every 2 years
The hose has 1985 on it!!!!!
Paul
The fill hose isn't "universal engine", it's "catalina boat"
Besides, I believe (at least one of) the Universal Ops Manuals speaks of keeping the radiator filled or some stupid thing like that -- was not prepared for a marine engine, nor was edited for that. (we shall let no detail go unsweated.)
Quote from: britinusa on April 10, 2017, 02:48:31 PM
Added Bleed Screw.
Paul.
well, not exactly. There are essentially four fuel flow routes on the XP. Hope this comes thru.
FILTER
|
|
(A) from filter to injector pump.
|
|------(B) fuel bleed bypass ----------->|
v |
INJECTOR PUMP-----(C)--- I1 |
INJECTOR PUMP-----(C)--- I2 |
INJECTOR PUMP-----(C)-- I3 |
(O) bleed valve
C) high pressure - |
IP to top of injectors. |
|
D) low pressure - |
collected fuel by injector banjos |
|
<---------------------------------------- |
|
v
-----> injector 1 banjo --(D)--> banjo 2 --(D)---> banjo 3 ---(D)---------> TANK
Before and After pics of my Racor Fuel Filter
And After
Guys : FYI, about 15 years ago I checked out the Mil Spec. on USCG and regular "Gates" brand diesel fuel hose and found :
The more expansive USCG Spec'd hose had to do with the longer length of time the fuel hose remained intact - for flame resistance before it broke down. And as I recall that time was only about 5 or 6 minutes.
We had this same discussion on this form back in the mid-1990s
I'm standing by to be blasted!!
A few thoughts