Hey guys,
Boat is stock with no battery charger other than the alternator. She will be kept on a mooring 100% of the time so I obviously need something to keep the batteries charged. Currently I have just 2 that appear to be 75AH each. What do you think of this charger, which appears to require no controller based on my batteries being above 50AH?
https://www.amazon.com/Solar-Charger-Regulating-experience-Dimensions/dp/B0046DSLFS/ref=sr_1_1?s=lawn-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1484157254&sr=1-1&keywords=duravolt
note: This will be an interim solution. In the next year or two I will probably look to add battery capacity (at least a dedicated starter but maybe golf cart route) increased solar panel, charge controller, etc.
Also, current 12v needs are just some small instruments, vhf, toilet, bilge pump, and LED lighting. No refrig or AC.
Thanks!
Bryan
Did you say you have an electric toilet? If that is the case, based upon your current electrical situation, I would suggest you eliminate that "power consumer" as part of your early changes.
Yes, and it looks to have been there for some time. I also have a 2nd head - aka 5 gal Lowes bucket..
Bryan,
From the Electrical Systems 101 thread:
Do I Need a Controller for Solar?
http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=144557 (http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=144557)
Thanks Stu. Definitely a lot to consider. To be clear, phase 1 is just an interim plan. This product though might be a better option as it is cheaper, and has a built in controller:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004Q820TQ/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=2STGU6C1MQNB5&coliid=I3SM4JIZG5MXCS&psc=1
My current 2 batteries are of an undetermined age so I really don't think I have much to lose.
You could also invest a few $$ more and get one of those 100 watts semi-flexible solar panel for $175 USD + a $35 controller for now.
https://www.amazon.com/HQST-Monocrystalline-Lightweight-Solar-Panel/dp/B017OMTAV6/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1484211785&sr=8-4&keywords=hqst+solar+panel
http://www.hqsolarpower.com/HQST-100-Watt-Monocrystalline-Flexible-Solar-p/hqst-100db.htm
Could easily expend your system later and they are easy to store under a cushion when you don't need them.
Thanks Rick. I am really ignorant on a lot of the electrical stuff. In going with this higher wattage (100+) would that mean that my 2 batteries would come up to charge much quicker than the lower wattage one (e.g. 15W). That would be beneficial when I do overnights.
Also, is there a specific, cheaper controller that you would recommend?
Bryan
Quote from: NewToTheRoad on January 12, 2017, 08:48:20 AM
I am really ignorant on a lot of the electrical stuff.
Bryan,
None of us was born an electrician. :D
That's one reason I put together the Electrical Systems 101 Topic.
If you spend an hour a day on it, you can get up to speed pretty quickly.
He just wants a quick answer. Who's gonna throw him a bone?
The size of the solar charger really doesn't really matter. If you continue to charge the batt when it is fully charged you will boil it dry or ruin the batt. But if your bilge pump runs some then it will keep the voltage down. Charlie
Quote from: sailaway on January 12, 2017, 07:12:24 PM
1. The size of the solar charger really doesn't really matter.
2. If you continue to charge the batt when it is fully charged you will boil it dry or ruin the batt.
3. But if your bilge pump runs some then it will keep the voltage down. Charlie
1. A larger panel will provide more amperage.
2. It will without a controller, which is why one is recommended. Please see my earlier link.
3. Immaterial.
Let me first point out that I am by no means an marine electrical guru. We have been looking at doing a complete electrical upgrade on our boat with the idea of being able to spend extended time cruising and on the hook. The PO had started doing a number of upgrades including a high output alternator and regulator but had not finished the project. There are still a number of parts that are still new in the box that we will install in the spring.
With that said I really was having trouble understanding just what we had on hand and what we were going to need to customize our system for future needs. I took Stu's advise and poured over the electrical 101 articles on this site and can say without a doubt that is a gold mine of information. If anything you might suffer a bit from information overload but if you have a question about our electrical systems you will find an answer there.
I do understand wanting to save money and sometimes it can be hard to define the lines between a band aid, good enough and over kill. If I were in your place I would go with Rick's advice. For only about 20% more money you would be looking at 6 times the power generation compared to the first system you listed. That gives you a whole lot more wiggle room for very little investment.
Thanks guys for all of the replies. Yes I was hoping for a quick answer and yes I should spend "more" time in 101. I knew that I saw something, somewhere on this site, and have dabbled in 101 periodically. But it looks to be a treasure trove of info. Thanks for the further direction Stu. The volume of info can be daunting and certainly useful when I do the full upgrade. What I did find was some good tips on small panels and controllers, that I did not find via the search feature.
Being a newbie, I don't know what I don't know. Not having even a full season on her yet I don't know what our power needs will be. I do know that she will be on a mooring and minimally we will be doing frequent day sailing. I do know that I need to insure the bilge works when unattended and that I can start the engine when I need to.
So, I think my plan will be to be smart, follow everyone's advice, and go with a simple controller until I get a better feel for our needs.
Quote from: NewToTheRoad on January 13, 2017, 01:32:36 PM
Being a newbie, I don't know what I don't know. Not having even a full season on her yet I don't know what our power needs will be.
newt,
You can get a very good handle on it from this post, the very first one in Elec 101:
The All-Important Energy Budget:
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,3976.0.html (http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,3976.0.html)
Budgets are estimates, but they will put you in the ballpark. Your solar idea for your situation makes a lot of sense.
With a an electrical budget, you are telling the electrons where to go, not wondering where they went.
OK guys. I followed conventional wisdom and went with the following:
Victron Energy Blue Solar Controller (100/15)
A 50W flexible panel that I will mount off the stern rail to get optimal sun.
My plan is to wire the controller directly to one of my two batteries (currently only have two). If I leave the battery switch on "Both" with that effectively top off both batteries similar to how the alternator would?
Thanks,
Bryan
I believe it would. If your batteries are OEM wired, when you switch to both, you put them in parallel. The thing is your wiring runs to charge become rather long and you will see more voltage drop then if you wired them individually from the controller.
Quote from: NewToTheRoad on April 11, 2017, 09:07:02 AM
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........wire the controller directly to one of my two batteries (currently only have two). If I leave the battery switch on "Both" with that effectively top off both batteries similar to how the alternator would?
Yes, it would. You would also have your entire boat "live" (of course you'd turn off all branch circuit switches or breakers) while most of us turn our 1-2-B switches off. The way we do this is to wire the alternator output to the house bank and use a VSR (combiner, echo charger, etc.) to deal with the second battery.
If you don't want to go there, yet, then perhaps you could consider charging one battery at a time, which would allow you to keep the switch off when you're not there.
Can you tell us more about how you use your two batteries? Do you have a fridge? Do you anchor out or marina-hop using shorepower? Are your batteries generally close to full when you return to your slip or before you leave the boat?
If you can get one battery as close to full as possible you can alternate batteries connected to your panel. If, however, you leave on at PSOC (Partial state of charge) its not good for the battery.
You can leave a full battery for a couple of weeks without recharging without damaging it.
Getting a used battery completely full (100%) takes a lot of time, usually overnight, but read these battery acceptance topics in Elec 101:
Battery Acceptance by Stu http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4787.0.html
Why Going Into FLOAT is NOT Full
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,8216.0.html
Quote from: NewToTheRoad on April 11, 2017, 09:07:02 AM
My plan is to wire the controller directly to one of my two batteries (currently only have two). If I leave the battery switch on "Both" with that effectively top off both batteries similar to how the alternator would?
Bryan
The primary reason one has two battery banks is so that you have a spare if a problem develops.
Leaving a battery switch in the BOTH position invites the inevitable error of leaving it in BOTH with a load running. The result is BOTH batteries being dead. The proper solution is some form of automatic isolation that allows charging of both. Those include:
1. Echo Charger (either Xantrex or Sterling)
2. An ACR (aka automatic combiner) such as the BlueSea ACR's or Yandina.
The ACR acts like an automatic BOTH switch that engages only when it sees a high enough voltage to indicate that a charger is active. Some include support for remote override switches and indicators, which can be useful.
The echo charger senses that your primary battery is being charged and does a DC to DC conversion to charge your secondary battery with its own independent charge curve. It has the advantage of allowing your secondary battery to be of a different type than the primary rather than simply charging both sets in parallel. The drawback is that it has more electronics in it that can fail and it can only output limited current (15A for Xantrex Echo, anywhere from 3A for the tiniest Sterling up to 30-60A for their larger models, but that's plenty for recharging your reserve battery). The Xantrex should not be mounted inside the battery box due to corrosion concerns.
There are tons of postings on the issue of how to best isolate/combine battery systems, but the gist of all of them is that you want an approach that minimizes the chance that you will ever manually combine your batteries (i.e. get rid of the BOTH position). It is rarely beneficial and is a major source of ending up with both sets of batteries dead when you need them most.
Various links (first two are excellent quick primers by MaineSail, the third is a longer article)
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/3054617-post5.html
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/3054689-post7.html
https://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/1-both-2-off-switches-thoughts-musings.137615/
https://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/question-about-battery-combiner.176679/
C34 link:
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php?topic=7986.0
Echo Chargers
https://www.amazon.com/Xantrex-82-0123-01-Echo-Charge-Systems/dp/B0016G8RT8
http://www.defender.com/product3.jsp?path=-1|328|2289962|2295772&id=2086407
ACRs
Blue Sea:
https://www.bluesea.com/products/category/35/Automatic_Charging_Relays
https://www.bluesea.com/resources/1366
Yandina
http://www.yandina.com/
Thanks Guys.
I am assuming original, 2 battery configuration. I just bought the boat in Sep and then it went immediately into Winter storage. So, I don't have any practical experience. My #1 reason for the solar is because I intend to keep it on a mooring. There is no fridge or inverter and minimal electronics. All interior lights are LED and I don't expect to be using running lights. Toilet is elec. My expected usage will be day sails and maybe some weekends.
Yes, my only reluctance was that everything is left live, but I can live with that for now. This is somewhat of an interim solution. After reading most of the elec mods my plan is to go to a dedicated starter and house setup before next season. My plan was to add a dual or echo charger at that time. I did just purchase a dual purpose Group 24 battery at West marine to keep as a on-board spare and eventually become my starter.
Thanks for some great feedback J_Sail. That is definitely the direction I need to be going.
bryan
Quote from: mark_53 on April 11, 2017, 10:03:35 AM
I believe it would. If your batteries are OEM wired, when you switch to both, you put them in parallel. The thing is your wiring runs to charge become rather long and you will see more voltage drop then if you wired them individually from the controller.
Mark,
I may have misunderstood you but the controller has a single positive and negative connection to the battery. If I were to wire them individually from the controller wouldn't that wiring essentially put the batteries in parallel and negate the 1, 2, both switch? My understanding is that I would need a device between the controller and battery(s), such as a xantrex echo charge, to keep them both isolated but allow charging of each.
Bryan
Quote from: NewToTheRoad on April 11, 2017, 01:00:46 PM
Quote from: mark_53 on April 11, 2017, 10:03:35 AM
I believe it would. If your batteries are OEM wired, when you switch to both, you put them in parallel. The thing is your wiring runs to charge become rather long and you will see more voltage drop then if you wired them individually from the controller.
Mark,
I may have misunderstood you but the controller has a single positive and negative connection to the battery. If I were to wire them individually from the controller wouldn't that wiring essentially put the batteries in parallel and negate the 1, 2, both switch? My understanding is that I would need a device between the controller and battery(s), such as a xantrex echo charge, to keep them both isolated but allow charging of each.
Bryan
Yes, but with a few clarifications:
1) Yes, if you were to try to wire the controller directly to both batteries, you would be tying them together permanently (which we all know would be bad).
2) I suspect that Mark probably meant to say the wire length needed via the 1-2-Both switch is longer than if you wired the controller directly to your house battery and used some other approach for getting the charge current to your second battery (echo or combiner).
3) Your statement that, "I would need a device between the controller and battery(s)", is just slightly off. You wire the controller directly to the house battery and then add a device (echo or ACR) from the house battery to the second battery for the charge pathway.
Quote from: NewToTheRoad on April 11, 2017, 11:57:40 AM
........................
........................ My plan was to add a dual or echo charger at that time. I did just purchase a dual purpose Group 24 battery at West marine to keep as a on-board spare and eventually become my starter.
1. Specificity helps here. [Just a danged engineer speaking! :D] You do NOT want a dual charger, or as Balmar calls it a duo charger. They have "issues" that have been discussed elsewhere. If you want me to find some discussions let me know, but if I convince you to ignore it, then it's a moot point. :thumb: You want either an echo charger or a combiner. If your house bank is larger than your reserve bank, an echo charger would work just fine. A combiner is less expensive. The warning about the echo charger installation manual is in the Elec Systems 101 topic, as are further discussions about the differences between the devices in addition to Jeremy's fine presentation.
2. Please save oodles of your $$ and never buy a battery of any kind from West Marine. They are simply re-branded batteries made by others and you're paying twice as much for the silly label. Scout out "real" battery vendors in your area via Google, Yelp and the yellow pages, then comes back and ask us before you buy. What you have will work as a reserve bank, but a simple auto start battery would have been a lot less. Sorry the horse is outta the barn. :cry4` :D Read the link to Maine Sail's discussion about real deep cycle batteries before you buy.
Good luck, sounds like you have a plan.
Quote from: NewToTheRoad on April 11, 2017, 01:00:46 PM
Quote from: mark_53 on April 11, 2017, 10:03:35 AM
I believe it would. If your batteries are OEM wired, when you switch to both, you put them in parallel. The thing is your wiring runs to charge become rather long and you will see more voltage drop then if you wired them individually from the controller.
Mark,
I may have misunderstood you but the controller has a single positive and negative connection to the battery. If I were to wire them individually from the controller wouldn't that wiring essentially put the batteries in parallel and negate the 1, 2, both switch?
Bryan,
I was thinking there was some controller provided way of charging two separate banks.
Quote from: NewToTheRoad on April 11, 2017, 01:00:46 PM
My understanding is that I would need a device between the controller and battery(s), such as a xantrex echo charge, to keep them both isolated but allow charging of each.
Bryan
If you only can charge a single bank and you have two banks than wiring both batteries directly from the controller to each battery will not work efficiently since the controller is sensing only one voltage...but it should work. The problem it seems with an ACR or echo charger is when you flip the 1-2-B switch to B, now you have one bank and the ACR or echo charger are hard wired for two banks. That seems like a problem. An alternative would be to put a voltage monitor on each bank (each battery in your case) and a switch coming off the controller. You could manually direct the charge to each bank or use the 1-2-B switch for both.
Many of us have paralleled the batteries in the battery box to create one larger bank (1 on the 1-2-B switch) and added a start/reserve battery (2 on the switch) with an ACR or echo charger between to isolate and charge each bank separately. In this configuration, you would only have one wire from the controller to the bank 1.
Quote from: mark_53 on April 11, 2017, 03:01:36 PM>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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1. The problem it seems with an ACR or echo charger is when you flip the 1-2-B switch to B, now you have one bank and the ACR or echo charger are hard wired for two banks. That seems like a problem.
2. An alternative would be to put a voltage monitor on each bank (each battery in your case) and a switch coming off the controller. You could manually direct the charge to each bank or use the 1-2-B switch for both.
3. Many of us have paralleled the batteries in the battery box to create one larger bank (1 on the 1-2-B switch) and added a start/reserve battery (2 on the switch) with an ACR or echo charger between to isolate and charge each bank separately. In this configuration, you would only have one wire from the controller to the bank 1.
1. No problem at all. Why? Because when you do install an VSR (of any type) you do two things: send ALL charging sources to the house bank so the 1-2-B switch is only a USE switch; and never have to move the 1-2-B switch to B, ever, unless your VSR breaks, in which case you ONLY go to B when charging sources are present. B is for Backup. :D
2. Double dipping with more switching, and, right, you could use the 1-2-B switch, but if you do #1 above you turn the switch off when you leave the boat and both banks get charged. Simpler. No switching required. This is the entire concept of doing this: simplicity. It also is healthier, 'cuz your brother-in-law won't fry your alternator's diodes by turning the damn switch off when youre motoring even though you told him DO NOT TOUCH!!! :clap :clap :clap
3. Yup, totally in agreement with #1 and #2! :D :D :D :D
Got it. Thanks for the clarifications. I like the simplicity aspect and will, with time and $, move in that direction. I have read a lot of the debate on the AB switch and there are many great points of view.
Battery was only $99 but will definitely run it by the group when I go to golf cart batteries for the house.
My plan was to install the controller under the Nav station which is ultimately 2 ft farther than the AB switch. So my run to the battery box is at least 6 feet( through the wet locker and behind the main panel) which I undertand will have some voltage drop. But, it seemed to be an easy location to monitor and out of the way. I have read where others have done the same. Is there a better location closer to the battery?