Catalina 34

General Activities => Main Message Board => Topic started by: Sailing Steve on August 17, 2016, 10:44:18 AM

Title: Seized Stainless Nuts - Nut Splitter?
Post by: Sailing Steve on August 17, 2016, 10:44:18 AM
I've been trying to remove a seized stainless steel acorn nut using various penetrating oil/concoctions (please don't recommend any more, I've tried so many, "guaranteed to work"), controlled application of heat, impact wrenches, and all combinations thereof without any success.  Angle grinders/sawing won't work in this situation unfortunately.

Somehow I've been living in cave and just learned about nut splitters, which I believe would be the answer to my prayers.  My question is does anyone have experience with these and in particular with stainless steel acorn nuts?  Lots of stuff on youtube, but nothing for stainless that I could find.  What I have learned is the cheap brands have a high failure rate, but I'm reluctant to drop money on a quality nut splitter only to not have it work.

Comments on nut splitters vs stainless?
Title: Re: Seized Stainless Nuts - Nut Splitter?
Post by: Jim Hardesty on August 17, 2016, 11:46:25 AM
Steve,
I've used nut splitters before.  Never on a stainless acorn nut.  They do work well, if you can get them on the nut right.  My guess is what you have is an acorn nut that was bottomed out on the bolt or screw then tightened and mushroomed the thread end.  If you have a dremel tool (IMHO a must have tool) you could cut off the rounded end of the nut and work down from there.  Or if you don't need to save the screw or bolt just cut the whole thing off.
Hope this helps,
Jim
Title: Re: Seized Stainless Nuts - Nut Splitter?
Post by: britinusa on August 17, 2016, 02:12:22 PM
Can you get to it with a Dremel cutting wheel?

That's my 2nd goto tool when something won't come off.

1st is a 4 1/2" Angle grinder but it's often too big  :santa

Paul
Title: Re: Seized Stainless Nuts - Nut Splitter?
Post by: KWKloeber on August 17, 2016, 03:15:14 PM
Steve what size nut and on what?  Accessibility, etc.?

-ken
Title: Re: Seized Stainless Nuts - Nut Splitter?
Post by: lazybone on August 17, 2016, 06:27:10 PM
Buy American or German.  The Chinese nut splitters are made of compressed oatmeal.
Title: Re: Seized Stainless Nuts - Nut Splitter?
Post by: Sailing Steve on August 17, 2016, 08:52:29 PM
Thanks everyone who's chimed in so far.

1) It is an acorn nut on one of my chainplates, I don't recall the actual size but they're not trivial.

2) Because of the bolts passing through the deck, I'm reluctant to go with any cutting such as an angle grinder or Dremel as I know fiberglass is not very heat tolerant.  That being said, I guy could cut a bit, rest a bit, to control the heat build-up.  I'm not very experienced with cutting heavy metal with a Dremel though, angle grinder won't fit.  Tried trimming my HX zincs once, didn't work very well - slow cuts with a chop saw did though ;-)

3) I don't mind spending more for quality tools, and agree the lower cost import tools tend fail under real use, but I'm concerned with the performance of a nut splitter vs. stainless.
Title: Re: Seized Stainless Nuts - Nut Splitter?
Post by: Noah on August 17, 2016, 09:47:32 PM
Not familiar with the nut splitter-- other than my boss!  :shock:
The Dremel sounds like the right tool to use for this, but unless you are a skilled dentist, it can be a bit tricky to use and can slip out of control. It has happened to me. If you opt for the Dremel, I suggest you make a shield out of a thin piece of (stainless) with a hole drilled in it large enough to slide over the acorn nut -- and tape it to the fiberglas. That way if/when you slip, the cutting wheel will hit the shield and not cut into anything "pretty".
Title: Re: Seized Stainless Nuts - Nut Splitter?
Post by: Stu Jackson on August 18, 2016, 08:39:58 AM
Steve,

Noah's advice is very good.

I'm sitting here looking at one of my chainplates, and the acorn nut is below the big stainless plate.  I don't understand your concern about the fiberglass.  You could hack away at it all day and still not damage anything.

More importantly, if you decide on something mechanical, you'll need someone "upstairs" (or an open port (!!!  :D) to hold the top of the screw/bolt on deck.

Good luck, Dremel is what I'd start off with.  Then once the first cut is made, whack it with a cold chisel.
Title: Re: Seized Stainless Nuts - Nut Splitter?
Post by: KWKloeber on August 18, 2016, 09:29:10 AM
What about more heft?  ie, a long breaker bar?  either home made (pipe extension) or HF 25" breaker bar?

Or see
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,7265.msg49667.html#msg49667 m - used an angle grinder (I picked up a very thin 'cutting' (rather than grinding) blade for stainless for mine at ACE hdwre - same approach as a Dremel.   Hit the nut from the acorn, not horizontal, and peel it off.  Either tool would be a valuable investment if you don't already have them.  There's enough metal in contact therre to act as a heat sink unless you go crazy and burn through the top of the nut with glowing red speed. 

-kk
Title: Re: Seized Stainless Nuts - Nut Splitter?
Post by: Sailing Steve on August 18, 2016, 01:00:08 PM
Great responses everyone.

1) I fear the heat created by cutting will transfer into the bolt and the rest of chainplate, therefore heating the fiberglass where it contacts.  I read somewhere, but I'm unable to relocate the info, that fiberglass/resin breaks down around 250F - It's not so much the cloth, but the resin that fails.

2) Breaker/torque wrench etc. fail because the person in the topside with the worlds biggest flathead screwdriver, is unable to keep the screwdriver blade in the round bolt head - screwdriver jumps out not matter how much weight is applied to the screwdriver.

Here's the plan... I'm going to buy a nut splitter and try it first - too easy IF it works.  Failing that, I'll go the Dremel route, although I have to research cutting blades as I have no experience with same.  I'll update the results.

Thanks again.
Title: Re: Seized Stainless Nuts - Nut Splitter?
Post by: KWKloeber on August 18, 2016, 01:55:44 PM
Quote from: CFSA Steve on August 18, 2016, 01:00:08 PM
Great responses everyone.

1) I fear the heat created by cutting will transfer into the bolt and the rest of chainplate, therefore heating the fiberglass where it contacts.  I read somewhere, but I'm unable to relocate the info, that fiberglass/resin breaks down around 250F - It's not so much the cloth, but the resin that fails.

2) Breaker/torque wrench etc. fail because the person in the topside with the worlds biggest flathead screwdriver, is unable to keep the screwdriver blade in the round bolt head - screwdriver jumps out not matter how much weight is applied to the screwdriver.

Here's the plan... I'm going to buy a nut splitter and try it first - too easy IF it works.  Failing that, I'll go the Dremel route, although I have to research cutting blades as I have no experience with same.  I'll update the results.

Thanks again.

Gotcha on the machine screw head. Sure that would be an issue.  A tight-fitting straight blade socket (available in larger sizes than is a screwdriver) might work better.  That said, you're making way more of the heat than needed.  You're not going to melt your boat by cutting off a nut using a Dremel and a cut off wheel.  With the available power it's difficult to even possibly cut fast enough on a nut that hefty to harm anything (except your fingers if you grab the nut.) I've cut off dozens of stainless items and just go slow.  Keep a wet rag handy and douse it every 30 seconds if you feel leery -- or keep a hose spraying on the deckside if you want to totally overkill this.  You'll get a whole lot more future mileage out of a Dremel than a nut splitter.  They'll be projects that you have never before thought of using it.  Trust us (Stu, Jim, Paul, me) on this one.  The Coast Guard is proposing rules that no boat be sold without a Dremel and a tube of SuperLube PTFE - they'll get you out of trouble as well as a chart and a PFD.   :lol:

Good luck anyway though.

-kk
Title: Re: Seized Stainless Nuts - Nut Splitter?
Post by: KWKloeber on August 19, 2016, 01:33:17 PM
P.S., what you are probably looking at is, the stainless nut was over tightened and the threads are galled.  Use a touch of Never Seize when reassembling stainless to stainless (3rd on the list of most required item on a sailing vessel, right above Thread Lock.)

-ken
Title: Re: Seized Stainless Nuts - Nut Splitter?
Post by: J_Sail on August 20, 2016, 01:36:55 PM
Don't know if you want to go this way (or even if it's appropriate for your circumstances), but it is possible to drill the bolt from topsides, and if you pick the right sized bit and stay centered you will cause the head to pop off the bolt with no damage to anything else. I have done it before on automotive applications, but one has to be careful. Typically you center punch the bolt head dead center, use a drill bit that's slightly smaller than the diameter of the bolt and drill just slightly deeper than the bottom of the bolt head. You then try to unscrew the nut and the bolt should shear off just below the head.  If not, then you increase the drill size slightly and repeat.
Title: Re: Seized Stainless Nuts - Nut Splitter?
Post by: Ken Juul on August 20, 2016, 07:00:14 PM
j sail, easier said than done.  I have tried that approach several times on various cars.  On steel easy to over drill and re tap.  Stainless is much harder.  I vote for the dremel option, especially if worried about too much heat.
Title: Re: Seized Stainless Nuts - Nut Splitter?
Post by: Indian Falls on August 21, 2016, 08:14:45 AM
My opinion is I'd grind the head of the bolt off from the top with a 4" angle grinder. Keep a wet rag to control heat.  All mess and filings will be on the top side not the inside.  The washer will be sacrificed as it will keep you off the fiberglass.  A nut splitter big enough will not fit next to the chain plate. Stainless is so much harder and resilient than low carbon steel nuts such as what nut splitters were made for.  I wouldn't waste the time and money on the nut splitter. 
Title: Re: Seized Stainless Nuts - Nut Splitter?
Post by: KWKloeber on August 21, 2016, 10:27:31 AM
Quote from: Indian Falls on August 21, 2016, 08:14:45 AM
My opinion is I'd grind the head of the bolt off from the top with a 4" angle grinder. Keep a wet rag to control heat.  All mess and filings will be on the top side not the inside.  The washer will be sacrificed as it will keep you off the fiberglass.  A nut splitter big enough will not fit next to the chain plate. Stainless is so much harder and resilient than low carbon steel nuts such as what nut splitters were made for.  I wouldn't waste the time and money on the nut splitter.

If I did that approach, rather than try to cut it flush, with my thin stainless cutting blade I'd first grind straight down (on bolt slot, if it's positioned right), then with a cold chisel split the head (stainless is brittle), clean up as needed to drive the bold down.

-kk
Title: Re: Seized Stainless Nuts - Nut Splitter?
Post by: J_Sail on August 21, 2016, 12:53:18 PM
Ken,
Regarding the difficulty in drilling from the topside, while I agree it isn't trivial, I wouldn't compare it to the challenges of the example you are apparently thinking of, namely removing a bolt from something like an engine block (you mentioned overdriving and tapping fresh threads).

In your automotive case you would have needed to drill out the whole bolt, which I agree is tricky; in Steve's case he only needs to weaken the junction between the head and the bolt sufficiently to cause the head to shear off. Then the bolt drops thru and can be removed from below. In this case the drill bit doesn't need to be the exact full diameter of the bolt and the centering accuracy doesn't need to be exact. I agree that stainless is a bit harder to work with, but I have done this successfully before in other settings. 

I don't know enough to say what's the best approach, but I would consider this one along with the others.  I do agree with the other posters, though, that the heat is totally manageable for any of the approaches.
BTW, sorry for my ignorance on the specifics of the Catalina, but what's the bolt diameter?
Title: Re: Seized Stainless Nuts - Nut Splitter?
Post by: patrice on August 26, 2016, 05:22:00 AM
Hi,

I think Jsail idea is a nice one.
It will be a lot easier to work from the top than upside down.  You will have more control on your tools.

You could use the idea of a shield to protect the suround.

Use a small drill bite to start a pilot hole, then use bigger one.  Use a good drilling lubricant when drilling.  Will save the bite and ease temperature.

This is the same principle to remove pop rivet.  Drill the head.

Or, from the top again, use a 4" grinder.
You could grind Slowly the head of the screw.  Since the space is not great, use the grinder as if you wanted to cut the existing slot widder and widder, you will eventally eat the whole head.

Good luck
Title: Re: Seized Stainless Nuts - Nut Splitter?
Post by: Craig Illman on August 26, 2016, 05:51:22 AM
I'm going to make the same recommendation I made in a referenced thread. I used my cordless Ryobi 3/8 drive impact wrench on the acorn nut. I'd try that first, before starting to drill or cut anything.

My two cents........

Craig
Title: Re: Seized Stainless Nuts - Nut Splitter?
Post by: J_Sail on August 26, 2016, 11:12:39 AM
I believe his initial post said he had already tried an impact wrench without success.
Title: Re: Seized Stainless Nuts - Nut Splitter?
Post by: Craig Illman on August 26, 2016, 09:09:40 PM
Ah, missed that. Maybe some C4 then?
Title: Re: Seized Stainless Nuts - Nut Splitter?
Post by: Sailing Steve on September 07, 2016, 03:29:08 PM
Craig - I can't stop laughing aloud!!!! Love the C4 comment!!!

I'm going to get at the job as soon as the season is truly done, and I'll update the results starting with how/if the nut splitter worked, then move up the ladder of suggestions, hoping to avoid the C4 though.
Title: Re: Seized Stainless Nuts - Nut Splitter?
Post by: Sailing Steve on July 20, 2017, 08:00:07 AM
SUCCESS!

After trying everything else including multiple brands of penetrating oil (none of which showed any migration into the threads) over multiple applications, impact wrenches, heating the nuts etc, it came down to the Dremel and the nut splitter - Credit to Jim Hardesty who was the first response to the initial post.

When I initially tried the nut splitter on the chainplate acorn nuts, it didn't work - It only left a slight indentation on the nut from the nut splitter blade.  Only after I used the Dremel with the fiberglass metal cutting wheel (about one 1" wheel and 20 minutes per nut BTW) to remove the dome of the acrorn nut, did the nut splitter work - I suspect the dome gave the nut too much strength over an area not touching the nut splitter blade.

It took a box wrench as a snipe on the handle of my ratchet to have enough turning torque to turn the nut splitter in enough to split the nut, but it worked on all four nuts that I was trying to remove.  When they split, it is with a bang and a few sparks!  In each case I only had to split one side of the nut, and the remainder would either fall off with a few light taps of the hammer, or would back off using the socket set as the bolt threads were not damaged.  The nut splitter was a low end, inexpensive C$12.50 (On sale %0% off - about US$2 LOL) made in China model to boot.

The Dremel was easy to handle in the tight space, preventing any collateral damage, and the heat produced by the cutting action was also easy to control as it didn't remove near the amount of metal that my angle grinder would have.  Although I could have cut right through the nut/bolt with the Dremel, it would have taken longer, and used more cutting wheels, plus more chance of over heating the surrounding area.

Thanks again for all of the suggestions, and I hope my experience helps someone in the future.

Steve

Title: Re: Seized Stainless Nuts - Nut Splitter?
Post by: Ron Hill on July 20, 2017, 02:19:33 PM
Steve : Here is what I'd try:
1. Grind off the round head of the acorn nut until the threads and the bolt shows. 
2. Then use a Dremal tool and cut a slot in one side of the nut.
3. Take a common screwdriver tip and insert it in the cut and spread the nut till it opens

A few thoughts
Title: Re: Seized Stainless Nuts - Nut Splitter?
Post by: Ron Hill on July 20, 2017, 02:25:35 PM
Guys : You can't use a nut splitter on an acorn nut until you grind off the rounded head of the acorn nut!!

A thought
Title: Re: Seized Stainless Nuts - Nut Splitter?
Post by: Stu Jackson on March 14, 2018, 05:37:12 PM
Quote from: CFSA Steve on July 20, 2017, 08:00:07 AM
SUCCESS!>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Thanks again for all of the suggestions, and I hope my experience helps someone in the future.


Steve,

Thanks for the very thorough report.  I have the same issue with two of five acorn nuts on my  port handrail.  I have already removed the bungs from above, and tried to hold the top of the bolt with a flat blade screwdriver and a vice grip, while using a ratchet socket down below.  I tried, my "very strong large buddy" tried.  No luck.

I started with the dremel, with a new blade, it's a battery powered model.  Not much luck, and in 20 minutes all I got was a bit of a few shiny spots on the acorn nut.  I'll try again tomorrow.

Does anyone know if there is a cutting tool similar to a dremel blade that I could use in my real drill?  The clutch in the dremel seems to stop the blade from turning when I apply enough pressure that would seem to be needed to actually start cutting the acorn nut's metal.  It could be that a "plug in" dremel could be "stronger" than my "toy" of a battery powered dremel.

Any ideas?
Title: Re: Seized Stainless Nuts - Nut Splitter?
Post by: KWKloeber on March 14, 2018, 05:52:45 PM
Stu
When you say Dremel blade, specifically?  There's different types - what are you looking for?
I've picked up both 1/8" and 1/4" shank carbide and diamond grit cutters of different types.
Some from eBay, some from Aliexpress, some from HF.
IIWMB I'd invest in a good rotary tool which is more compact than a drill  - I have an older Dremel but I think my RTX is a better rotary tool.
Title: Re: Seized Stainless Nuts - Nut Splitter?
Post by: tgsail1 on March 14, 2018, 08:24:38 PM
Stu- I had this problem years ago. Forewent the Dremel tool in favor of an angle grinder with a cutoff wheel. A bit of overkill, but the angle grinder gives you pretty good control.
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,7265.0.html (http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,7265.0.html)
Title: Re: Seized Stainless Nuts - Nut Splitter?
Post by: Ron Hill on March 15, 2018, 03:05:16 PM
Guys : The best tool that I found to grind off and cut metal is a hi speed grinder (10,000 rpm) IF you can get it in the space?  Otherwise you need a Dermal Tool.

Harbor Freight has a cheep 4" Hi-Speed one that I've tried and is still working 10 years later!!

A few thoughts
Title: Re: Seized Stainless Nuts - Nut Splitter?
Post by: Stu Jackson on March 16, 2018, 05:01:36 PM
I'm making progress.  I was able to remove one of the acorn tops this afternoon.

It's truly amazing how much a charged battery in the Dremel tool can make. :thumb:

I'll either buy or rent a nut splitter now.
Title: Re: Seized Stainless Nuts - Nut Splitter?
Post by: KWKloeber on March 16, 2018, 05:05:44 PM
Can you use a pencil torch on the acorn, or too dicey?  Heat rules.
Title: Re: Seized Stainless Nuts - Nut Splitter?
Post by: Stu Jackson on March 17, 2018, 03:13:25 PM
Quote from: KWKloeber on March 16, 2018, 05:05:44 PM
Can you use a pencil torch on the acorn, or too dicey?  Heat rules.

I'm pretty sure that if you have wooden handrails they are above the headliner down below and heat rises.  :shock:  I considered heat, but determined that since I didn't want to burn the headliner, transfer heat UP through the bolt, and then potentially damage the base of the handrail itself, that a mechanical means of doing so would be far superior.

I utilized Steve's idea, so well presented.

I still have to remove the acorn from the second nut, and then get a nut splitter to remove the nuts.  No heat involved.

Nut splitter on sale today at Canadian Tire, 45% off, only $12.50 + tax.  Thanks to my friend Len who alerted me to the sale.
Title: Re: Seized Stainless Nuts - Nut Splitter?
Post by: Ron Hill on March 18, 2018, 02:46:50 PM
Guys : What I've done with success, is to hacksaw a slot in the bottom of the threaded bolt. 
Put an box end wrench on the nut, then put a screwdriver in the slot to hold the nut and back off the nut with the wrench!!

Works much better than the vice grips approach.

A thought

Title: Re: Seized Stainless Nuts - Nut Splitter?
Post by: Stu Jackson on March 18, 2018, 05:17:10 PM
Ron, the vice grips were to remove the "head" of the acorn nut.

I got the second acorn nut partially cut through, and got the nut splitter on the first nut.

I used the small vice grips to hold the nut splitter up to the nut while I tightened the splitter.

Steve's "snipe" idea really came in handy.
Title: Re: Seized Stainless Nuts - Nut Splitter?
Post by: Craig Illman on March 19, 2018, 01:31:02 PM
Stu - I see plenty of duct tape, but where's the baling wire?  :thumb:
Title: Re: Seized Stainless Nuts - Nut Splitter?
Post by: J_Sail on March 19, 2018, 03:46:29 PM
Quote from: Stu Jackson on March 17, 2018, 03:13:25 PM
I'm pretty sure that if you have wooden handrails they are above the headliner down below and heat rises.  :shock:  I considered heat, but determined that since I didn't want to burn the headliner, transfer heat UP through the bolt, and then potentially damage the base of the handrail itself, that a mechanical means of doing so would be far superior

Actually, it's not true that heat always rises. Hot air rises because it is lighter than the surrounding air, thus "convective" heat flow is normally upward. Heat movement by conduction and radiation shows no preference for direction. For heat that is conducted through the bolt, it does not matter that the handrails are above vs below.

That said, I would think torch-applied heat is probably best kept as a last resort due to the proximity to delicate materials and the challenges of shielding them.

I would go with either the nut-splitter approach or carefully drilling the head of the bolt from topsides.

Jeremy
Title: Re: Seized Stainless Nuts - Nut Splitter?
Post by: Stu Jackson on March 19, 2018, 05:03:33 PM
Both nuts are now gone.  POP!  POP!   :clap

It was a very good day.  :D
Title: Re: Seized Stainless Nuts - Nut Splitter?
Post by: KWKloeber on March 19, 2018, 07:23:34 PM
Stu,

I would guess that there are all sorts of quality/robustness of nut splitters -- what was your source?

Would you recommend foregoing messing around with other methods, and go right to popping them off?


ken
Title: Re: Seized Stainless Nuts - Nut Splitter?
Post by: Stu Jackson on March 19, 2018, 08:41:44 PM
Quote from: KWKloeber on March 19, 2018, 07:23:34 PM
Stu,

I would guess that there are all sorts of quality/robustness of nut splitters -- what was your source?

Would you recommend foregoing messing around with other methods, and go right to popping them off?

Yes, I'd guess there are all different sources of tools, and quality, too.

Given Steve's suggestion that he had purchased a Harbor Freight tool, I opted for price vs. quality, inasmuch as it was a two-shot deal for me.

Conclusion: The tool I bought worked.  On BOTH of the nuts I needed to remove.

I did not begin with "messing around with other methods," because the excellent report from Steve led me directly to the appropriate solution.   Why would I go to heat when it was not warranted given the assembly?  Jeremy's comments were helpful, but I'd been well into nut #1 when he commented.

Once I learned how to apply and adjust the tool it was a lot less time & effort for the second one.

The tool is pretty simple, and anything more elegant (and expensive) would fail to suffice for the brute strength required for the intended purpose.

Gee, $12.50 US from Harbor Freight or $14.01 including tax on sale at Canadian Tire, for something that actually works, seems fair to me.



Title: Re: Seized Stainless Nuts - Nut Splitter?
Post by: Noah on March 19, 2018, 09:20:57 PM
No need to split hairs over splitting nuts! 8)
Title: Re: Seized Stainless Nuts - Nut Splitter?
Post by: KWKloeber on March 19, 2018, 11:46:24 PM
Stu

I wasn't thinking of any particular method (e.g., heat) but I recall you said you tried a Dremel and was looking for a drill cutter, and others said an angle grinder.  That's the types of "other methods" I was referring to that eventually lead you to splitting the nut.

Good to know that a cheapo splitter did the trick, oftentimes the HF type cutting tools that seem to be made of something just a little bit harder than annealed aluminum just don't "hold an edge" to the more professional tools.

k
Title: Re: Seized Stainless Nuts - Nut Splitter?
Post by: Craig Illman on March 20, 2018, 06:24:32 AM
At that price, I probably should just have one handy in the garage. As long as I can find it when needed! Thanks for the pictures Stu.
Title: Re: Seized Stainless Nuts - Nut Splitter?
Post by: Jon W on March 20, 2018, 03:41:17 PM
I've got the same tool on the boat. I'v used it to split from 1/4" SST nuts up to 1/2" SST heavy hex nuts.
Title: Re: Seized Stainless Nuts - Nut Splitter?
Post by: Stu Jackson on March 21, 2018, 10:12:49 PM
Success.

Gratifying, too.

Butyl tape after leveraging the handrail up by loosening but not removing the screws from down below.
Title: Re: Seized Stainless Nuts - Nut Splitter?
Post by: KWKloeber on March 22, 2018, 08:49:55 AM
Stu

It's good to see another who has gone au natural.  I hated teak varnishing so badly I stripped every inch of it off the boat.

I am wondering why you didn't remove the rails so you could at least countersink both the deck and rails?  Or go the whole route and epoxy seal the fastener thru holes?

Are you using a stainless anti-seize such as Locktite C5-A to prevent the bolts/nuts from galling again?

Not that I am saying one way or the other, just throwing out for general info how some C30 guys have dealt with rails:

1) Epoxied-in hanger bolts (including in the screw positions)
or
2) Epoxied-in bolts (with a deformed head so that they can't slip)

No more bungs, no more slipping bolts .........  no more teacher's dirty looks.

k
Title: Re: Seized Stainless Nuts - Nut Splitter?
Post by: Stu Jackson on March 22, 2018, 11:12:34 AM
Quote from: KWKloeber on March 22, 2018, 08:49:55 AM

I am wondering why you didn't remove the rails so you could at least countersink both the deck and rails?  Or go the whole route and epoxy seal the fastener thru holes?

Because I didn't want to, nor do I think I needed to.  The length and curve of the handrails make it difficult, especially for one worker (i.e., ME :D) to put them back in the holes.  I did the removal on our C25 years ago and swore I'd never do it again.

Quote from: KWKloeber on March 22, 2018, 08:49:55 AMAre you using a stainless anti-seize such as Locktite C5-A to prevent the bolts/nuts from galling again?

You betcha.  Lanocote. I use it in many applications.  I had to remove two hoses yesterday from my rw pump (I'll be replacing the seals) and they came off rather easily because I'd slathered Lanocote inside the ends of the hoses.  It works on many different items: hoses, threads...  I like it better than Locktite, because it is not "runny."

Quote from: KWKloeber on March 22, 2018, 08:49:55 AMNot that I am saying one way or the other, just throwing out for general info how some C30 guys have dealt with rails:

1) Epoxied-in hanger bolts (including in the screw positions)
or
2) Epoxied-in bolts (with a deformed head so that they can't slip)

No more bungs, no more slipping bolts .........  no more teacher's dirty looks.


Sure, there are many different ways to deal with this issue.  The butyl tape around the bolts and screws will keep the water out.  There 's no need to "seal" under the flats of the rail against the deck because there are no deck penetrations there.

I've read about all the many different ways to rebed handrails.  I have read every Mainsheet magazine from 1987 on, since my PO gave me all his back copies in 1998.

Your My boat, your my choice.  :D :D :D
Title: Re: Seized Stainless Nuts - Nut Splitter?
Post by: KWKloeber on March 22, 2018, 11:38:58 AM
Stu

Ya, I know about the bend, I did mine single handedly but seems not as much an issue lining up and insert as you're saying you had.  Maybe my rails had more of a "pre-bend" in them so it took only a little persuasion to line up/reinsert the bolts.  Luckily I didn't have to de-bung at all, all my bolts stayed put and they easily de-nutted below.

I'll hafta try Lanacote, never saw it around.  Locktite C5-A is a fairly heavy paste, like plumbers pipe dope.

kk
Title: Re: Seized Stainless Nuts - Nut Splitter?
Post by: J_Sail on March 22, 2018, 10:51:17 PM
I can't resist tossing in my two cents.  Lanocote is an old-school lanolin grease that works by a combination of preventing corrosion (by sealing out moisture) and providing lubrication when you need to remove fasteners. For many applications, that is probably sufficient. A seized stainless-to-stainless nut-bolt situation, though, commonly isnt due to corrosion, but to "galling" where fasteners of similar hardness effectively get spot welded by the micro transfer of metal from one surface to the other under the intense microscopic pressure between the threads. 

The best protection for that is the high-shear strength of anti-seize compounds. Such compounds often use molybdenum grease for shear strength (so that the grease maintains an intact layer between the surfaces) and optionally include tiny particles of a soft metal that will provide an extra layer between surfaces that can be broken free by reasonable torque. The addition of powered PTFE can provide some anti-seize effect much like metal powder.

For a lot of applications, you will find success in almost any grease. For high-load stainless-to-stainless, you are best off using a proper anti-seize compound. The specific metal additive is not nearly as important as it seems, so don't get too worried about the copper in an anti-seize worsening galvanic corrosion. But if that worries you, use one with aluminum. The anti-seize manufacturers offer the different formulas, primarily due to issues unique to high-temperature performance (engine exhaust manifold bolts or spark plugs to be installed and left for 10 years) or specialized applications that might be sensitive to chemical contamination.

Tef-gel is a nice product that combines corrosion protection with decent anti-seize properties, so is very popular on boats. Not as effective on stainless-to-stainless galling as a speciality anti-seize, but probably good enough to solve most problems, where bolts are not torqued that tight to start with, and it provides long-lasting anti-corrosion protection on fittings exposed to saltwater.

More on galling:
https://www.boltdepot.com/fastener-information/materials-and-grades/Thread-galling.aspx
Title: Re: Seized Stainless Nuts - Nut Splitter?
Post by: J_Sail on March 22, 2018, 11:30:11 PM
Another thought - since galling is typically a problem only when the bolt and nut are the same material, you could substitute silicon bronze for one of the two. Since the juncture is mostly dry, galvanic corrosion shouldn't be a big problem. 

Just food for thought.

G'night
Jeremy
Title: Re: Seized Stainless Nuts - Nut Splitter?
Post by: Jim Hardesty on March 23, 2018, 06:07:43 AM

QuoteI can't resist tossing in my two cents.

And here is my two cents.  Need to use caution with stainless steel fittings.  Any burrs or deformed threads will gull up and ruin the nut and bolt.  This is from a couple of decades in a company doing a lot of work with stainless quick disconnect fittings.  Also,  I often use old fashioned pipe thread compound (plumbing stuff).  Easy removing or retightening, never had any vibrate loose and it seals the threads.  This is from decades of off road motorcycle racing. (a tip from someone older than me)

Jim
Title: Re: Seized Stainless Nuts - Nut Splitter?
Post by: KWKloeber on March 23, 2018, 11:58:38 AM
Quote

I can't resist tossing in my two cents.



Here's 0.06 (0.02 x 3) from the Henkel (aka Locktite) techs.  I had asked them the best anti-seize for three applications:

A)  stainless threads (e.g., bolt to nut, etc.)

....the best for stainless are LB 8009 (Heavy Duty Anti-Seize) and LB 8023 (Marine Grade Anti-Seize).  :thumb:

B)  engine senders (e.g., temp gauge sender, thermostat cap bolts) to maintain the best electrical conductivity.

....The most conductive of the anti-seize products is the LB 8504 (Graphite 50 Anti-Seize.)  :thumb:

C)  To minimize potential galvanic corrosion.

The LB 8023 (Marine Grade) is both one of the best for stainless, and will prevent galvanic corrosion.  :thumb:

The data sheets are attached.

As others said, anything is better than nothing. SuperLube PTFE gel is another lube that would also help impart a boundary layer on threads to reduce the chance of galling.

For senders, I have always recommended copper content anti-seize -- I have a couple guys who have inaccurate (low reading) temp gauges because of (I believe) a poor ground thru the T-stat cap bolts.  I suggested they clean up and anti-seize the bolts.  I even offered to send them free my jumper to bond the temp sender.  Nah, it's too much trouble, I'll live with it.  :shock:  (the ultimate MBMC??)


kk

Title: Re: Seized Stainless Nuts - Nut Splitter?
Post by: J_Sail on March 24, 2018, 12:34:35 PM
I would tend to favor the LB 8023 for exterior marine use due to resistance to wash-out.

I would not worry about the electrical conductivity of anti-seize compounds. The thread interface results in intimate metal to metal contact at sufficient points to provide excellent conductivity for sensors. Even wrapping threads with PTFE plumbers tape usually doesn't prevent such contact; the microscopic peaks just punch thru. That said, you can still end up with corrosion or other contamination problems between two flat surfaces clamped together, but that's not due to lack of conductivity of the anti-seize compound.

BTW - many supposed "conductive" contact lubes, such as DeOxIt, are not actually conductive; they just produce a thin enough film to allow the metal peaks to punch through.
Title: Re: Seized Stainless Nuts - Nut Splitter?
Post by: J_Sail on March 31, 2018, 09:25:47 AM
Finally found the perfect nut splitter, one that MaineSail would be proud to own:

https://www.amazon.com/Splitter-Cutting-Head-110-115Mm-AGN-ENE-NSH110115/dp/B00C3IEN7I
:clap :clap :clap

My only complaint, is that for $19,909.80, it should really come with free shipping. And it's only the cutting head, not the full tool.
:cry4`
Title: Re: Seized Stainless Nuts - Nut Splitter?
Post by: Stu Jackson on March 31, 2018, 12:24:20 PM
Quote from: J_Sail on March 31, 2018, 09:25:47 AM
Finally found the perfect nut splitter, one that MaineSail would be proud to own:

https://www.amazon.com/Splitter-Cutting-Head-110-115Mm-AGN-ENE-NSH110115/dp/B00C3IEN7I
:clap :clap :clap

My only complaint, is that for $19,909.80, it should really come with free shipping. And it's only the cutting head, not the full tool.
:cry4`

Aw, shucks.  NOW ya tell me!!!
Title: Re: Seized Stainless Nuts - Nut Splitter?
Post by: Sailing Steve on November 19, 2018, 08:03:47 PM
Quote from: Stu Jackson on March 19, 2018, 05:03:33 PM
Both nuts are now gone.  POP!  POP!   :clap

It was a very good day.  :D

So glad to see someone benefited from my experience.  Thanks Stu for the feedback on my posting - de ja vu complete with the box wrench snipe!  Did you get the bang and sparks too when the nuts split? Scared the you know what out of me the first time!

We sold our C34 last fall (2017) with the plan of buying a newer boat when I retire in about a year.  The plan was to save the C$12,000 for two years of moorage and put it to the newer boat - Will be a Catalina.  My wife however, booked us on a two week Greece trip this summer, which included an eight day sailboat charter; Only C$10,000 for flights et al, so still have C$2,000 for the next boat LOL.  I'm not a traveler, but it was a trip of a lifetime and the sailing to the various islands was amazing.

Anyway slid back into the C34 website looking for boat mattress suggestions (planing the newer boat details ;-) and thought I'd check for any responses to my posts.

All the best everyone, and L'Abri has maintained her name with the new owners if you happen to see them around the PNW.