Catalina 34

General Activities => Main Message Board => Topic started by: britinusa on April 20, 2016, 02:24:24 PM

Title: Time for a New House
Post by: britinusa on April 20, 2016, 02:24:24 PM
New House Batteries!

Pretty sure our old house batteries (4x6v Golf Cart Batteries) are fried.

Not sure what this item is, obviously some kind of sensor, but is it for the regulator or is it a temp sensor.

I'm going to the boat on Friday and will compare the wiring diagram with the real world.

Paul
Title: Re: Time for a New House
Post by: SPembleton on April 20, 2016, 03:41:01 PM
I am also replacing my house battery. Not sure what that red thing is.

I found what looks like a good deal at Batteries Plus.  It a duracell Group 24m 800cca for $95. 10% off with coupon if you start to pay through their website (dont need to actially buy it, just get the code and tell the people at the store.) and another $10 mailin rebate.
Title: Re: Time for a New House
Post by: britinusa on April 20, 2016, 04:14:12 PM
Looks like those duracell Group 24m 800cca are 12v  :cry4`

Best I have seen so far are from Sams Club, but they are not available in Florida  :?

We'll be on the boat this weekend, so pulling the old ones out will wait to Monday. Meanwhile I'll be checking that the 0-1-2-B switch is setup as a 'Use' selector rather than a charging selector. I've spent hours reading the forum and feel that I'm getting a grip on the concepts. I don't want to toss $400 on new batteries only to fry them because the setup is inappropriate.

Paul
Title: Re: Time for a New House
Post by: britinusa on April 20, 2016, 04:23:34 PM
Just found these at BatteriesPlus

https://www.batteriesplus.com/productdetails/sligc125 (https://www.batteriesplus.com/productdetails/sligc125)

Can get 10% off

Paul
Title: Re: Time for a New House
Post by: Stu Jackson on April 20, 2016, 06:05:01 PM
Not sure what this item is, obviously some kind of sensor, but is it for the regulator or is it a temp sensor.

Neither.

Open it up!

It allows one to add some small connectors to a battery stud.

Old school "technology" - these days we use buss bars.
Title: Re: Time for a New House
Post by: britinusa on April 20, 2016, 06:06:23 PM
Hmmm! Of course it's going to be fun tracing the wire to the other end.

Paul
Title: Re: Time for a New House
Post by: Stu Jackson on April 20, 2016, 06:50:07 PM
Blue wire?  Most likely the always on bilge pump.  Tracing should be easy on our boats.  Worst case, disconnect it and see what doesn't work.  Good luck.
Title: Re: Time for a New House
Post by: britinusa on April 24, 2016, 02:44:07 PM
Update,
house batteries are fried - barely hold a charge above 12v for 1 hour, cases are bulging (hope I can get them out without surgery)

Got the new batteries from Batteries Plus $85 each (plus core charge & tax) not as painful as I expected in Florida.

Reviewed wiring diagram and physical layout - need to update the diagram to match the real world.
The system has the following electronic components

House Battery Set is 4 6v Golf Cart Batteries and 1 12v Start Battery

There is an Off - 1 - All - Two battery selector and a Start Master switch

Here's a link to a Photo Album showing the equipment.
https://goo.gl/photos/Mzg3SgRhtemVSTSm6 (https://goo.gl/photos/Mzg3SgRhtemVSTSm6)

I do not see a Galvanic Isolator installed on the boat - So I'm looking
Any suggestions on choice - I found http://www.yandina.com (http://www.yandina.com) and http://www.yandina.com/acrobats/GalvOwnManual.pdf (http://www.yandina.com/acrobats/GalvOwnManual.pdf)

I'm in the process of looking at all of the documents that came with the boat trying to identify which shows the most up to date wiring diagram or if they are all just wish lists.

On Wednesday I'll follow the wires for the Off - 1 - All - 2 switch and see if I can identify the Alternator rating (any hints on what to look for)

Paul

ps. I hope this does not turn into a thread as long as John's!  :?

ps. Thanks Stu et.al. for the well documented reports that at least got me thinking I needed to dig into this issue before just replacing the batteries.

Title: Re: Time for a New House
Post by: Stu Jackson on April 24, 2016, 02:57:40 PM

  • Freedom 20 Charger / Inverter
  • Heart Interface LINK 200-R
  • Ideal Regulator Output Module 12/24v
  • Incharge 3 stage Regulator
  • Blue Sky Solar Boost 25Amp MPPT Solar Controller

With the Freedom I/C you face the very same challenge I had in 1998:  single output alternator and single output I/C.  When I installed our Freedom 15, I also put in a Yandina combiner for the reserve bank.

I'm guessing you're in for some heavy reading of the  Electrical Systems 101 topic.  My wiring diagram is in there, too.  And that you've started a wiring diagram or two.  :D

Ask away.
Title: Re: Time for a New House
Post by: Ron Hill on April 25, 2016, 03:09:12 PM
Paul : The best deals on Duracell batteries used to be at Sam's Club.  You might want to check it out!! 

A thought
Title: Re: Time for a New House
Post by: britinusa on April 25, 2016, 05:31:26 PM
We're Sam's club members, but they do not have them available in Florida. (Probably some political reason ;)

I got the old batteries out today, one of them was literally boiling, I could hear the bubbling when I removed the battery.

I'll return the old bats on Wednesday (I left the receipt aboard today) Meanwhile, I'm cleaning up the battery bay, all of the terminal ends and labeling them correctly. At least I have confirmed the the #1 bank is the house bank :)

I'm going to modify the battery restraint system, it's totally overkill, good but far more than is needed to keep the batteries in place during a turtle event.

Paul
Title: Re: Time for a New House
Post by: Jon W on April 25, 2016, 05:41:16 PM
Hopefully my thread covered most questions so you have a quicker time of it. :clap. What is the "ENGEL" circuit breaker on the panel for?
Title: Re: Time for a New House
Post by: britinusa on April 25, 2016, 06:12:08 PM
The PO had an Engel cooler type fridge/freezer that he kept in the Aft Berth. The switch is now used to control the AIS power.
(I installeda NMEA 2000 Network and the AIS almost fell into it. Easy Peasy Install)

Paul
Title: Re: Time for a New House
Post by: britinusa on April 28, 2016, 05:47:54 AM
Dang!

The Admiral caved and said it would be ok to blow the budget and get both a Galvanic Isolator & ACR. So I ordered both on Amazon basically because they could be here Friday giving me time to get the install done prior to our 10 day trip next week to the Keys.

Chatting off line with Ken Klober on another subject, I found out I could have ordered them through him at a lower price so even with the shipping it would have been a few dollars less than Amazon.

I have an affinity for doing business with folks that share my passion for sailing boats. Especially those that are really helpful here in the forum.

Ken has helped me on several issues, including provisioning of our Smart Plug and some special cable for use on the Boat's 110v electrical system.

This is my way of saying thanks Ken! I'll call you next time before I hit the Buy Now button on Amazon.

Paul
Title: Re: Time for a New House
Post by: KWKloeber on April 28, 2016, 10:07:19 AM
 :oops:

You're welcome as always, Paul.  Glad to help with your upgrades!

kk
Title: Re: Time for a New House
Post by: britinusa on April 28, 2016, 04:25:12 PM
Confused (not difficult)
Looks like I'm gong to have to connect the new batteries before I complete my wiring diagram so that I can tell if all of the electronic components of the Link 2000R system are online.
Just to recap:
The system has the following electronic components
Freedom 20 Charger / Inverter
Heart Interface LINK 200-R
Ideal Regulator Output Module 12/24v
Incharge 3 stage Regulator
Blue Sky Solar Boost 25Amp MPPT Solar Controller

But today, when I pulled out the upper electrical panel (above the main electrical panel) I found an AMP-HOUR+2 circuit board that is connected into the system. It appears to be wired according to the Manual diagram.
The Heart Interface Manuals show that AMP board but do not show the Ideal Regulator Output Module(IROM) 12/24v
The IROM only appears to have a single phone cord type connection to it. Not yet figured out where it goes, but I have a feeling that it's a legacy module and not required (please pipe up if you know better)

Anyone got a similar system and have both the Ideal Regulator Output Module & the Incharge 3 Stage Regulator??

Thanks.

Paul
Title: Re: Time for a New House
Post by: Stu Jackson on April 28, 2016, 05:46:28 PM
Paul, is Ample Power still alive in Seattle?  They'd know for sure, with a phone call.
Title: Re: Time for a New House
Post by: britinusa on April 29, 2016, 06:35:19 AM
Stu, I have spent toooo many hours following links and reading everything I can find, but I did not find your wiring diagram. Any chance you could post a link here?

And...
Here's a link to the PDF version of my system wiring diagram (from the Link 2000 Manual)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzhALZsJd3D4UWw5WmpIaTBBUVk/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzhALZsJd3D4UWw5WmpIaTBBUVk/view?usp=sharing)

As you can see, it does not show the Heart Interface - Ideal Regulator Output Module 12v/24v, so I'm wondering if it's just a piece of legacy equipment.

Paul

Title: Re: Time for a New House
Post by: Jon W on April 29, 2016, 08:04:29 AM
Hi Paul,
I'm a little confused because I see both drawn in the schematic. Note 6 is a typical engineering note to cover items not the focus of what they were hired to engineer/install. If I were you I would take the time to follow all the in's and out's to make sure I understood what is connected and why. Just my two cents.
Title: Re: Time for a New House
Post by: Stu Jackson on April 29, 2016, 08:11:37 AM
Stu, I have spent toooo many hours following links and reading everything I can find, but I did not find your wiring diagram. Any chance you could post a link here?



Cleverly hidden in the Electrical Systems 101 topic

Stu's Wiring Diagram  http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4623.msg27335.html#msg27335 (http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4623.msg27335.html#msg27335)   

Title: Re: Time for a New House
Post by: Stu Jackson on April 29, 2016, 08:16:15 AM

And...
Here's a link to the PDF version of my system wiring diagram (from the Link 2000 Manual)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzhALZsJd3D4UWw5WmpIaTBBUVk/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzhALZsJd3D4UWw5WmpIaTBBUVk/view?usp=sharing)

As you can see, it does not show the Heart Interface - Ideal Regulator Output Module 12v/24v, so I'm wondering if it's just a piece of legacy equipment.



Paul, I'm confused.  The PDF shows the BIG box in the middle of the page that says:  Ideal Regulator Output Module.  The Link 2000R difference from the regular Link 2000 (that I have) is the connection to that alternator external regulator.

Am I missing something here?

You earlier wrote:  Anyone got a similar system and have both the Ideal Regulator Output Module & the Incharge 3 Stage Regulator??

Is it the two different things that have you stumped?  That's why I suggested calling Ample.  Have you looked at their website?
Title: Re: Time for a New House
Post by: britinusa on April 30, 2016, 04:14:40 AM
Here's my cause for confusion...

The first image show two Heart devices

The second image shows the AMP-HOUR+2 circuit board.

The diagram (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzhALZsJd3D4UWw5WmpIaTBBUVk/view) only shows 3 devices, the Link 2000 Monitor/Controler, The Regulator & the AMP-Hour+2 circuit board but my system physically has a 4th device and appears to only have a single (ribbon) connection (plus the Freedom Inverter)

Yesterday I was able to reinstall the batteries. I had to make up new interbattery cables (the new battery terminals are in a different configuration, the old series & parallel cables were too short.) Everything appears to be working.


This morning I'm going to install the ProMarininer Galvanic Isolator and charge the batteries. And that leads to another question.

When I apply shore power and press the Link Charge button and then the Amps Button then Battery 1 shows 33amps and Battery 2 shows 3amps (Battery 2 is the Starter Battery that appears in good condition despite being a 11/09 battery )

That would indicate (IMHO) that the batteries are both being charged from the Freedom Inverter - I didn't think that it had the option to charge 2 batteries (hence why I purchased, not installed yet, an ACR)
Plowing my way through the Freedom Manual and the two Link Manuals.

Paul
Title: Re: Time for a New House
Post by: KWKloeber on April 30, 2016, 08:48:17 AM


I didn't think that it had the option to charge 2 batteries

Paul

Jon the link system can handle 1 or 2 battery banks.

Ken
Title: Re: Time for a New House
Post by: britinusa on April 30, 2016, 02:20:26 PM
We have the Freedom 20 - it can change a single battery bank (House) But it also has a built in Echo Charger specifically for a Start/Auxiliary battery - Both seem to be working fine now that I have replaced the House Battery Bank.

It's amazing what I can find by reading the fine manual! Still at a loss about the extra device not shown in the diagram.

Paul
Title: Re: Time for a New House
Post by: KWKloeber on April 30, 2016, 04:00:48 PM
We have the Freedom 20 - it can change a single battery bank (House) But it also has a built in Echo Charger specifically for a Start/Auxiliary battery - Both seem to be working fine now that I have replaced the House Battery Bank.

It's amazing what I can find by reading the fine manual! Still at a loss about the extra device not shown in the diagram.

Paul

Paul (ie, Jon, sorry -- too many customers, too little brain left.)  While you're scratching around behind there, I noticed that the selector switch has light terminals UNDER the large lugs (looks like they might be simply shoved under them and 'clamped down'?  Completely backwards -- you might want to address that -- batteries and power posts should be built up from the heaviest lug to lightest terminal end, so that the greater current flow is next to the power conductor, and the lowest current flow is next to the nut/lock washer.  Oftentimes there an issue really tightening down on a light terminal -- you can add an extra nut for the lighter terminals atop the battery cable lug nut -- use jam (thin) nuts if necessary.

ken
Title: Re: Time for a New House
Post by: britinusa on April 30, 2016, 04:28:21 PM
Thanks Ken.
Good catch.

Note also the horrid sticky electrical tape! I'm planning on reorganizing the entire wire run when time permits. I still have a few 'wire nuts' to remove from the 110v system!

Paul
Title: Re: Time for a New House
Post by: britinusa on May 04, 2016, 12:19:38 PM
Making progress.

We spent Monday, Tuesday and this morning on the boat, the week got cut short due to lying weather forecasters!

The last paragraph of the Link 2000-R Optional Regulator Manual suggests having a backup Regulator and recommend the Heart Interface Incharge three stage charging Regulator!!

So, it looks as though the PO installed the spare regulator and connected it to the alternator to test it and never reconnected it to the Main regulator.

I have reached out to the PO asking if it the backup was connected as a test (as recommended in the manual) and never reconnected to the main device or did the main device fail and he switched over to the backup unit.

Note: The Main Regulator is connected to the Link 2000 Terminal circuit board via an 8 wire ribbon cable (RJ45) but the spare regulator is not connected to the Link 2000.

Hopefully the PO will respond and I'll know if I can just reconnect it to the main and keep the backup just in case or if I need to purchase a new main regulator to replace a faulty  one.

Paul


Title: Re: Time for a New House
Post by: Mike and Joanne Stimmler on May 04, 2016, 01:35:21 PM
Paul, you really need to get rid of those wire nuts ASAP. They have a reputation for setting boats on fire!

Mike
Title: Re: Time for a New House
Post by: britinusa on May 04, 2016, 03:41:05 PM
Wirenuts - Nuts! Agreed.

and updates continue.... Just heard back from PO - He did not install the backup regulator because the main failed, so that would indicate that the main is just fine.

Looking at the wiring, the Regulator Output Module (part of the Link 2000-R System) was probably never connected up as the shunt wires do not exist! Whereas the stand alone 3 stage regulator is connected to the alternator.

My plan is to wire up the alternator shunt (have to find it first) to the Output Module and then disconnect the backup regulator and connect up the Output module and test everything out.

Paul
Title: Re: Time for a New House
Post by: britinusa on May 08, 2016, 06:50:38 AM
More research on the boat.

The Shunt for the alternator is in place but has never been connected to the regulator (their are no witness marks on the two small screws on the shunt!)

Next research is to find out where the cables from the alternator go (to the Off-1-All-2 switch) or directly to the battery. Going to be fun tracing those wires.

Paul
Title: Re: Time for a New House
Post by: Stu Jackson on May 08, 2016, 09:50:21 AM


Next research is to find out where the cables from the alternator go (to the Off-1-All-2 switch) or directly to the battery. Going to be fun tracing those wires.



If the AO goes to the house bank, the logical run for a new higher output alternator requiring larger wire would be under the engine to under the galley sink into the battery box.  That's what most "sane" folks would do.

In other cases, some have run the AO through those black conduits under the head over to the port side and then to the battery box.  I find that to be the hardest way.  That's also the course they'd take if it goes to the switch if they used the OEM #4.

But, with a new alternator, one would assume that it is a higher output and larger than the OEM #4 wire would be used, right?  So maybe look for that larger wire from the AO.    What size is your installed alternator? 

I find using those conduits to be a PITA.  The Mark IIs have them all over the place, making it difficult to trace any wiring physically.

Our original OEM AO went under the head sink into the conduits under the head and to the C post of the 1-2-B switch.  When I installed our new alternator, I ran the new #2 wire under the engine, and labeled and abandoned the original AO, eventually used it for the remote sense to the house bank from the new Balmar MC-612 regulator by placing it on the "1" post of the switch!  Heck, it was already there.  :D  My boat was unusual in that the PO had TWO red wires from the C post of the switch: one from the alternator and one to the starter.  Made my life immeasurably easier.  Most folks only had one with the jumper between the starter and the alternator output.

Obviously, you NEED to know where it runs since you don't want to be turning the switch OFF if the AO still goes to the C post of the switch.

How have you been operating the boat all this time without knowing?

The "other way" to check wiring is using the ohm meter on your DVM, but I've never done that.  There is a way.   :thumb:
Title: Re: Time for a New House
Post by: britinusa on May 08, 2016, 12:14:09 PM
Thanks Stu.
How have we  been using the boat all this time???

The PO provided us with multiple wiring diagrams, one of them labeled 'Custom for xxxPOxxxx' and his explanation seemed to work.
My concern has been caused by reading the tech wiki and posts here and wondering if the system was charging correctly and was that the cause of the battery failure.

It works, but I want to ensure that it's working correctly.

I won't get back down to the boat till this coming Friday, then I plan on confirming the AO to Battery -or- Switch route and plan accordingly. Looking at Jon's diagrams in the posts has already caused me to review the Battery charging regulator (and determine that it's currently setup to use the Standby 3 Stage Regulator and not the one that is linked to the Link 2000-R system.

Next weekend will be busy - My new Traveler is due at the end of this coming week too, so I'll get that installed and post pics.

Thanks again.

Paul