I was interested in moving the primary winches on my MK II aft along the coaming towards the steering station to make it easier to tack and adjust the foresail when single handing. The position I settled on was about half the distance between the present which position and the steering wheel. I asked Gerry Douglas about it and he advised me against doing so because of the relative weakness of the coaming in the area of the large port cockpit locker lid. He did not offer an opinion on the starboard side. The fact that I run only a 130% genoa did not appear to alter his view. BTW, he responded very quickly to my e-mailed question.
Has anyone else had any thoughts about making the primary winches more accessible to a single hander? As it stands, I have to move in front of the wheel to tack and then get up and get forward every time I want to make an adjustment in the sail. In an area of flukey and variable winds that can get a bit tedious. Don't even get me started on the issues associated with managing the mainsheet when running dead downwind in a bit of a blow.
John : Do you really expect that anyone on this form would counter the expert opinion of the Marine Engineer/Designer of your C34? :?
I agree with Ron. I single hand a lot. With a Mk. 1, it is harder to reach the primary winches and I have yet to have any problems. However, your boat, your choice....
Quote from: John Langford on March 14, 2016, 01:10:16 PM
I was interested in moving the primary winches on my MK II aft along the coaming towards the steering station to make it easier to tack and adjust the foresail when single handing.
I did that on my C30 - added a secondary set about in line or so with the pedestal -- and have never regretted doing it. (No I didn't ask GD's permission. :D )
Some have installed a cockpit-controlled preventer system for running downwind.
kk
John : Might it just be that the coaming strength on a C34 is not the same as the of the coaming on a C30???
a BIG thought !!
Quote from: Ron Hill on March 14, 2016, 03:14:23 PM
John : Might it just be that the coaming strength on a C34 is not the same as the of the coaming on a C30???
a BIG thought !!
Also the 30 has less loading and smaller winches.
Quote from: lazybone on March 14, 2016, 03:42:15 PM
Quote from: Ron Hill on March 14, 2016, 03:14:23 PM
John : Might it just be that the coaming strength on a C34 is not the same as the of the coaming on a C30???
a BIG thought !!
Also the 30 has less loading and smaller winches.
And both boats are overbuilt!
Less sail area and the C30 and C34 use the same boom section. Go figure.
kk
I love my boat but "overbuilt".
Please.
I don't know about the 'underneath' of all the C34 coming, but mine was very easy access and if I had to add a backing plate or reinforce it there by epoxying on 1/2" plywood -- very easy.
I didn't -- it's stout to say the least. A phenolic hammer will sound out whether there's meat at a proposed mounting spot or not.
ken
The coamings may be different on a MkII, but on my 1986 Mk I, my primaries are located just in front of the wheel and the secondaries are located about 20" in front of the primaries. This is the original setup from when the boat was first sold as the dealer raced the boat extensively for a number of years. I also race my boat in longer random leg races and point to point races and can say there is no sign of any issue with the location of the primaries. The aft location for the primaries does allow me the ability to tack easily while single handling the boat as well as being able to make fine tuning adjustments while steering.
Gary
Quote from: John Langford on March 14, 2016, 01:10:16 PM
Has anyone else had any thoughts about making the primary winches more accessible to a single hander? As it stands, I have to move in front of the wheel to tack and then get up and get forward every time I want to make an adjustment in the sail. In an area of flukey and variable winds that can get a bit tedious. Don't even get me started on the issues associated with managing the mainsheet when running dead downwind in a bit of a blow.
I know it won't solve your winch issue, but when sailing, I never seat behind the wheel.
I sit on the coaming wall, wheel almost in front, feet on the bench. Have quicker access to the winch and traveller.
Let's not get too excited. I have no intention of going against Gerry Douglas's advice but this is an inventive group and I always think it is worth ventilating an interesting problem. And the placement of the primary winches on the MK II at least is "interesting" in that it presumes that you will have a second person tending the sheets. I think this is an outmoded assumption. My guess is that most of us are effectively single handers most of the time even if we have a mate on board. Try to get someone who is reading a book to pay attention to sail trim and you will see what I mean. Even getting the reader to move so you can move forward and tack the boat yourself can be a challenge!
Many other boat designs make it much easier for the helmsman to access winches more readily. I have partly solved the mainsheet access problem when sailing off the wind by bypassing the cabintop winch and leading the sheet aft through the cockpit to a block and cam cleat attached to the pushpit base near the helm station. But this clutters up the cockpit and only works when the wind is relatively light. Unfortunately the need to control jibes becomes pressing when the wind is up. if the focus was on safety and effective sailing, the mainsheet winch would not be on the cabin top to begin with.
When sailing upwind, I sit as far forward on the coaming as I can with my back against the leading edge of the pushpit on the leeward side. But you still can't reach the primary sheet winches from there. To make even a tiny adjustment you have to get yourself forward of the wheel. Mk II owners may love the big cockpit locker on the port side. But there is a cost in terms of safety and sailing effectiveness. It would be neat to find an improvement that didn't threaten the integrity of the coaming. But short of glassing in a supportive elbow for the coaming inside the locker - thereby dividing the locker space up - I can't see how to do it. Which is why I asked.
John,
To handle the jib sheets, I let the Autopilot tend to the wheel while I make an adjustment. Also, engage the "tack" feature, let the boat come about on it's own while you tend the sheets.
John,
Like Roc I let the autopilot steer and that lets me tend to sail trim. That's my preference anyway. I also use the "tack" feature. Sometimes I'll center the traveler before tacking and let the the main self-tend then reset the traveler and mainsheet when set on the new tack. I do most of my sailing single handed. Don't find it too difficult at all. Just need to plan things out before doing. I don't have anyone else to blame or shout at if things go bad.
Jim
Jim,
When I use the "tack" feature, the boat usually only goes halfway (stops in irons) because the wheel levels off too soon, and the autopilot points the bow into the wind (this is not just in light conditions). I have to press it again, then the autopilot completes the second part of the turn. Does yours do that? I've wondered if something isn't right on mine.....
A dock neighbor of mine did that to his C34 MkII. He put spacers under the winches so they would stand up straight and not be angled outwards. I installed a set of secondary's 15 inches aft of my primaries. I went with Lewmar 40s instead of the more common 30's (with using them as an occasional jib winch in mind). The coaming in that area is solid fiberglass and I backed them with a plate of ΒΌ inch of G-10. Port side installation is pretty straight forward (you will need to cut the bolts flush so they won't snag on things in the lazarette. On starboard, you need to cut in a Beckson port for access. But you will still have to split the backing plate to get it through the hole. Tightening those nuts is no joy either. The underneath surface of the coaming is ill regular so I used thickened epoxy to fill in and avoid point loading.
The downside is you will be restricted to 8" winch handles. I think one of the reasons my neighbor raised his was so the winch handle would go between the two lifelines. I use mine mostly on light days and when I'm being lazy. When the wind is up I go back to the 44's and 10" winch handle for better leverage. If you work the positioning correctly, you can still get a pretty fair lead if you are cross-sheeting.
Roc, I think there is a setting on the Autohelm where you can increase the tacking angle. Mine has no problem on tacking through a 90 degree arc.
QuoteWhen I use the "tack" feature, the boat usually only goes halfway (stops in irons) because the wheel levels off too soon, and the autopilot points the bow into the wind (this is not just in light conditions). I have to press it again, then the autopilot completes the second part of the turn. Does yours do that? I've wondered if something isn't right on mine.....
Roc, The manual is on the boat. My memory is that there is a way to adjust the tacking angle. I've not changed mine, have to be very close to the wind for it to tack in the standard mode. What I do is change to the steer by wind function, then when tacking it just steers to the opposite wind angle. Mine 4000st+ also over-steers some then comes back to the new tack.
I've tried and have improved the wheel pilot operation some. Still not 100% happy. Think I'll start a new thread asking if anyone has gone to the new generation of autopilot have found them to be superior.
Jim
I have an OLD ST3000. IIRC the tacking angle is fixed but the RESPONSE can be adjusted through the CALIBRATE menu. When sailing upwind or motoring I use the most responsive, IIRC #5. When sailing downwind or motoring out on the ocean, I reset it to #1 or #2, a MUCH slower response time. It stops the damn thing from going BUZZ, BUZZ, BUZZ all the time, much quieter. I find that tacking with the autopilot is PITA, so I simply disengage it, stand in front of the wheel and tack "manually" with the wheel, and once on the new course (determined by knowing the 110 to 120 degree course change), and then simply reengage the autopilot.
I've done this "cruising" but also racing, both with crew and singlehanded (racing, successfully, too).
In the Singlehanded 101 Topic, John Langford and many of us had a quite spirited discussion about his techniques and my "defense" of avoiding "being a slave behind the wheel." John had many, many very valid points to make about his particular cruising grounds, which included narrow channels, variable wind speeds and directions, heavy currents and the like, that required him to be behind the wheel. I fully understand his concerns and issues. All I can add to those discussions is that our cruising grounds vary, and each of us has to find those techniques that work for us, as well as the equipment we have. I'm sure a below-decks autopilot would modify my behavior quite a bit!!! :thumb:
Like many things in boating, there is no one "right" answer. Each of us needs to find what works for us.
It appears to me, given George's great description and perhaps Gerry's input, that there is a great deal of merit in consideration of adding sheet winches aft of the current locations. I never "took" to cross sheeting on our C22 or C25, and would definitely not personally recommend it to anyone on a C34 simply because of the geometry of the cockpit winch locations.
I personally find staying forward of the wheel to be much more comfortable, even with our puny and anemic ST3000 "TOY" autopilot. Part of it is that being behind the wheel means you're closer to the center of "bounce" --- the helmsperson's location is bouncier than being closer to the companionway. I find I get less "tipsy" when I'm forward of the wheel. Have at it with the "tipsy" part!!! :clap :clap :clap
John has a different goal and we should encourage the possibilities offered to make it work for him.
Here is the Singlehanded 101 topic with those prior discussions. Happy reading!!! :thumb:
Single Handing 101 http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5445.0.html (http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5445.0.html)
After a couple of years with our 'new to us' 1986 C-34 Tall Rig Fin keel, the issue of being able to respond quickly to sudden wind gusts as a typical condition in sailing in the Halifax harbour, I decided that being able to let the mainsheet out from the helm, was an upgrade worth the investment of secondary winches (Anderson 28's) on the comings, and a "double-ended" mainsheet system. The modification has proven itself a worthy upgrade on numerous occasions. As we typically sail with full main and our 105% or 150% Jib, depending on TWS, it is much appreciated by all on board that the helmsman can keep Endorfin nicely planted as conditions change, without drama and intervention by those who as 'guests' are not sure what letting the mainsheet out, means. Single handing is a breeze. :D
Cheers,
Barry White
S/V Endorfin
1986 C-34 TM, Fin Keel
Berry--What does your double-ended mainsheet set-up/run "look like"?
Hi Noah, the "double-ended mainsheet" is set up with a single, continuous line, running from the starboard secondary winch, forward through blocks on the inside track, up and over the cabin (through an over-the-top Schaffer block), to the base of our mast (at deck level), then through our blocks on the boom, and returning in a "mirror image" path down the port side, terminating at the secondary port side winch. This enables me to trim the mainsheet on either tack, while sitting on the coming. My self-tailing secondaries are Anderson 28's mounted approximately 18-20 inches behind the primaries. I can easily let out, or haul in the main as changing conditions dictate, with one hand on the helm. Hope this clarifies,
Cheers,
Barry
Would love to see some pics--especially the "over the top" portion from deck track to mast. Thx.
That's 'German sheeting' -- the same system on the J/120 I race on -- except of course the sheet winches are 40s and it has end-boom sheeting, so it's simpler and the runs are shorter. Great but remember to keep the sheet centered and not end up sheeting it all to one winch (oooops been there.)
kk
(http://images.boats.com/resize/1/77/98/4567798_20140208200550890_1_LARGE.jpg)
(http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn14/hectou/mainsheet_9.jpg)
Hi Noah, I have pictures on my home computer, but am currently away, so I'll try to dig up some pics and post them on my return. As Ken points out, you have to be aware of "balancing" the line occasionally, which is simple and takes no time... the key in mitigating this is simply make sure you have a few extra feet of mainsheet in the "loop". We race fairly competitively with this set-up, and typically double hand, and occasionally with a crew of 3, with no problems. On day-sails with "non-sailor" guests, it allows the admiral to entertain without the need to be focused on sail trim duties.
Cheers,
Barry
Quote from: Barry White on March 28, 2016, 11:55:16 AM
As Ken points out, you have to be aware of "balancing" the line occasionally, which is simple and takes no time... the key in mitigating this is simply make sure you have a few extra feet of mainsheet in the "loop".
Barry
And on the J/120 clearly and brightly marking the center location of the sheet so it's easy to see when it's "about centered" at the boom With the C34 boom blocks being far away, maybe at each winch marking on the lines the point of 'centered sheet.'
kk