I've received the harness upgrade Kit A with volt meter. I was looking over the engine to get an idea of how to approach making the change. I noticed a couple of things that I'd appreciate some help on. The wire harness has 9 wires. 4 are 10 AWG, and 5 are 14 AWG.
Questions -
When I remove the orange wire from the original setup, there will only be 7 left to interconnect. What are the other two wires for?
Per the Kit A schematic, the yellow/red wire to the engine panel push start button is 14 AWG. The wire harness sent is 10 AWG. Will
using 10 AWG be a problem going up and down in wire size?
The Kit A schematic has the glo plug wire as gray 10 AWG. The closest to gray in the harness sent is a white 10 AWG. Is the white
10AWG for the glo plug?
The orange wire from the output of the alternator to the engine panel is to be removed and attached to the positive side of the start
motor. On my boat, the orange wire runs from the alternator separate from the plug directly to the engine control panel as 14 AWG. It
returns in the plug to the starter as 10 AWG. Shouldn't the new orange connection from the alternator to the start motor be 10 AWG, or
per Mainsheet should it be 6-8 AWG? Also the wires appear to connect to the start solenoid, not the start motor. Is the connection on the
solenoid or is there a hidden connection on the actual start motor?
The purple wire is listed as the igntion switch, but on my boat is not connected to anything on the engine or starter. It has a push on
type connector and some electrical tape around it, but is just hanging out in the air. Looking through the head door, I can see what looks
like a tab on the lower start motor solenoid post below where the red positive wires connect to the solenoid. Is the purple wire supposed
to be connected on the lower post? The engine started fine the last time I started the engine. I didn't try it today. Could it have just
fallen off today? The previous owner did replace the alternator.
Any help is appreciated.
Regards, Jon W.
Harness upgrade Kit A
Quote from: Jon W on July 13, 2015, 03:54:32 PM
I've received the harness upgrade Kit A with a volt meter. I was looking over the engine to get an idea of how to approach making the change. I noticed a couple of things that I'd appreciate some help on. The wire harness has 9 wires. 4 are 10 AWG, and 5 are 14 AWG.
Jon, please see comments below.
Questions -
Quote from: Jon W on July 13, 2015, 03:54:32 PM
When I remove the orange wire from the original setup, there will only be 7 left to interconnect. What are the other two wires for?
Jon, it seems you're already aware of this:
http://www.c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=File:Harness1.gif
Yes, seven wires.
Quote from: Jon W on July 13, 2015, 03:54:32 PM
Per the Kit A schematic, the yellow/red wire to the engine panel push start button is 14 AWG. The wire harness sent is 10 AWG. Will using 10 AWG be a problem going up and down in wire size?
Bigger is always better when it comes to wiring. Get the connections right. J
Quote from: Jon W on July 13, 2015, 03:54:32 PM
The Kit A schematic has the glow plug wire as gray 10 AWG. The closest to gray in the harness sent is a white 10 AWG. Is the white 10AWG for the glo plug?
Ron Hill has always preached: "The colors can be different." He's right. Just connect the wire colors, if they're off, to what they used to be before (regardless of color!). Mine are white, but faded to close to gray, but they sure didn't start out as gray. J The Tech wiki has my wiring diagram, here:
http://www.c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Faster%2C_More_Efficient_Glow_Plug_Heating_with_a_Solenoid
Quote from: Jon W on July 13, 2015, 03:54:32 PM
The orange wire from the output of the alternator to the engine panel is to be removed and attached to the positive side of the start motor. On my boat, the orange wire runs from the alternator separate from the plug directly to the engine control panel as 14 AWG. It returns in the plug to the starter as 10 AWG. Shouldn't the new orange connection from the alternator to the start motor be 10 AWG, or per Mainsheet should it be 6-8 AWG? Also the wires appear to connect to the start solenoid, not the start motor. Is the connection on the solenoid or is there a hidden connection on the actual start motor?
Good question - means you are beginning to understand the link between the alternator output and the starter, starter solenoid.
Like this: OEM 1-2-B Switch Wiring History http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4949.msg30101.html#msg30101
If you combine this with what Maine Sail wrote, you should be able to get closer. Then come back with another more detailed question.
Quote from: Jon W on July 13, 2015, 03:54:32 PM
The purple wire is listed as the igntion switch, but on my boat is not connected to anything on the engine or starter. It has a push on type connector and some electrical tape around it, but is just hanging out in the air. Looking through the head door, I can see what looks like a tab on the lower start motor solenoid post below where the red positive wires connect to the solenoid. Is the purple wire supposed to be connected on the lower post? The engine started fine the last time I started the engine. I didn't try it today. Could it have just fallen off today? The previous owner did replace the alternator.
It could be an old alternator regulator power wire. New alternator or new alternator AND external regulator?
Here's what I did:
Alternator Regulator Wiring Diagrams - all three
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4548.0.html
Great questions.
Stu
Thanks Stu.
It is hard to see in there, but best I can tell the purple wire is part of the engine side harness. In your April 30 diagram I see "purple ignition to alternator". Is that what you mean by this purple wire was the connection to the old alternator? What do you mean "separate ignition to starter" in the parenthesis? Should the purple wire connect to the positive side of the starter?
Back to the orange wire - The connections I see look to connect to the start motor solenoid not the start motor. From memory 2 red wires and a yellow with an in-line fuse in a fuse holder. Taking the Kit A directions verbatim, I would remove these wires, install the orange 8 AWG from the Alternator output, re-connect the red and yellow on top of the orange and tighten the nut? Correct?
I appreciate your patience in my rookie season. I'm just learning to crawl when it comes to electrical systems. I need to go slow and connect the harness first to remove the trailer plugs and have a safe boat.
Thanks for the help. Jon W.
Professor Stu,
I followed the links and came across the attached picture from a Mainsail write up on the subject. I went to the boat this morning and started her up. No problems. Shut her down, and looked through the door in the head to get a closer look at what I have.
Turns out the new 105 Amp alternator is connected from its' output to the start solenoid just like the attached picture except the wire/cable is looped down not up. However the orange 10 AWG from the engine side harness is also attached to the start solenoid. I'm guessing when I do the harness upgrade I should remove the orange 10AWG from the start motor, correct?
The other orange 14 AWG wire from the alternator that bypasses the trailer plug I mentioned in previous post, may be direct connected to the engine control panel as the replacement for the yellow and purple wire in the attached picture. My purple wire is there, but not connected to anything. I won't know until I remove the engine control panel and look.
Thanks for the guidance. Jon W.
Jon, I wrote these up before I saw your last post. My answers include a link to that very article with that picture. I'll post this, and then review your new questions after lunch. :D
Quote from: Jon W on July 13, 2015, 08:21:28 PM
Thanks Stu.
It is hard to see in there, but best I can tell the purple wire is part of the engine side harness. In your April 30 diagram I see "purple ignition to alternator". Is that what you mean by this purple wire was the connection to the old alternator? What do you mean "separate ignition to starter" in the parenthesis? Should the purple wire connect to the positive side of the starter?
Jon,
The PURPOSE of me posting those diagrams was to show what was on MY boat, so I could: 1) keep track of what I was doing while I was working on it and record what I had done; 2) provide an EXAMPLE of how to make wiring sketches for others. It was NEVER intended to be a "here's what you should have on your boat, too" example, although if the wiring colors were the same, it would be, or close, right?
Please also remember that those sketches were prepared when I was doing a number of things at the same time: 1) removing the old OEM Motorola alternator; 2) decommissioning and later removing an old Auto Mac regulator; 3) installing a new 100A alternator; 4) installing a new Balmar MC-612 external regulator.
Because it appears you're only doing the wiring harness upgrade, your issues will be somewhat different, because you're simply trying to match like-for-like. In my case, I had to not only figure out what was there, but I had to learn how to hook the new stuff up. I "borrowed" much of the second two wiring diagram sketch layouts from that wiring harness diagram in the Tech wiki.
That said:
I see "purple ignition to alternator". Is that what you mean by this purple wire was the connection to the old alternator? If you follow the three sketches, you'll see that the purple wire is from the cockpit panel ignition switch to the old alternator's REGULATOR. This is the "signal" that turns the regulator, whether internal or external, ON when the key switch is turned on. On my boat, that wire was purple from the cockpit panel, went to a quick connect electrical connection into a brown wire, which then went to the ignition input of the new regulator (brown). In addition to identifying the color of the wires, keep working on learning the PURPOSE of each wire, too.
What do you mean "separate ignition to starter" in the parenthesis? Should the purple wire connect to the positive side of the starter?No. What that means is clarified by the upper right note on the second sketch: "Note: starter is not involved in the new alternator wiring..." Then check the third sketch to see #5 red to starter solenoid.
The only way I was able to see all this stuff was to DROP the alternator. Since I was taking it out anyway, it didn't matter to me. In your case, it wouldn't hurt, since it would help to identify the wires on the back of the alternator, as well as more importantly for your EXPOSE the wiring to the starter and starter solenoid. Once you do, you'll have an "AHA!" moment.
Maine Sail did an excellent writeup (it's different than what you're doing) but has very good pictures and descriptions, especially "Bypass the Orange/Red Circuit", the one with "the Quick & Dirty Fix box," here: http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/catalina_36_alternator (http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/catalina_36_alternator) I'm not suggesting you do what this article describes, just trying to give you more information, for the next question below.
Remember from above, I said: "If you follow the three sketches, you'll see that the purple wire is from the cockpit panel ignition switch to the old alternator's REGULATOR." Since you're keeping your old alternator, that wire should still go there. It energizes the regulator when the key switch is turned on, and the regulator is what makes the alternator produce current.
Quote from: Jon W on July 13, 2015, 08:21:28 PMBack to the orange wire - The connections I see look to connect to the start motor solenoid not the start motor. From memory 2 red wires and a yellow with an in-line fuse in a fuse holder. Taking the Kit A directions verbatim, I would remove these wires, install the orange 8 AWG from the Alternator output, re-connect the red and yellow on top of the orange and tighten the nut? Correct?
That orange wire has been the BIG question for most skippers for the past 30 years!!! You are NOT alone! The Maine Sail article also explains it. My third sketch shows this. The starter is on the bottom of the sketch; the starter solenoid is just above it, with the yellow wire going to the starter solenoid from the start button via the harness. Since I was replacing my alternator and installing a new regulator, I didn't have the answer to this question. I point you back to the "OEM 1-2-B Switch Wiring History" link from my last reply. Your goal should be to understand what's happening there at the starter and starter solenoid. Once you do, you can determine what wires to connect properly.
Quote from: Jon W on July 13, 2015, 08:21:28 PMI appreciate your patience in my rookie season. I'm just learning to crawl when it comes to electrical systems. I need to go slow and connect the harness first to remove the trailer plugs and have a safe boat.
That is a worthy goal. You'll get there. Remember, none of was born an electrician. I spent, literally, years drawing sketches on notepaper while I was eating dinner alone on business trips to get my head around this stuff. We've tried to capture as much as we could for skippers like you, so you could avoid reinventing the wheel. My wheel, in this particular case, was a tad squarer than yours!
Jon W : You probably haven't seen my posts on not needing the wiring harness "euro" connectors, but here's an idea:
I had to remove and reinstall my old engine from the boat (over 5000 hr on it) 2 different times to fix oil seal leaks. Then I had another problem with it and decided to just install a new engine.
On all of those times I disconnected the wires at the engine I didn't touch the connectors at the engine or the engine instrument panel!!!!
The wiring harness was installed at the factory for ease of production and if you ever have to remove your engine (I hope not) you'll disconnect the wires at the engine not at those connectors as it's easier!! I've never had to disconnect the wires at the engine instrument panel and can't conceive of a reason that anyone would ever have to!!!
I'd cut a wire from the 'trailer plug" and then cut the matting wire and connect those two wires together. You can use a butt splice or solder them with a heat shrink sleeve.
Anyway think about it and save yourself a bunch of unnecessary work. Good luck
A few thoughts
Quote from: Jon W on July 14, 2015, 12:22:38 PM
Professor Stu,
I followed the links and came across the attached picture from a Mainsail write up on the subject. I went to the boat this morning and started her up. No problems. Shut her down, and looked through the door in the head to get a closer look at what I have.
That look and Maine Sail's pictures should help you a lot. If you go back to my three wiring diagrams, the third one showed the starter and starter solenoid. Based on your visuals and Maine Sail's pictures, the BIG red wire from the C post of the 1-2-B switch lands on the BIG post of the starter solenoid, and just inboard (behind) that big lug is the slip on connector of the yellow/red stripe wire from the start button, the one with the notorious fuseholder (please also see the Critical Upgrades about that while you're in there).
Quote from: Jon W on July 14, 2015, 12:22:38 PM
Turns out the new 105 Amp alternator is connected from its' output to the start solenoid just like the attached picture except the wire/cable is looped down not up. However the orange 10 AWG from the engine side harness is also attached to the start solenoid. I'm guessing when I do the harness upgrade I should remove the orange 10AWG from the start motor, correct?
What you need to begin to do is start writing and thinking about the FUNCTION of the wire, not just the size and color. In fact, size & color alone tell you nothing. You NEED to know what that wire did or used to do before you disconnect anything.
You HAVE TO begin to ask yourself this: "What does this wire do? What is this wire called?" Only then can/should you can identify it further by size & color.
I know, this doesn't answer your question, but
you need to answer it. Please see my previous post about why I'm not answering it – my stuff was different, I didn't do what you are trying to do.
Quote from: Jon W on July 14, 2015, 12:22:38 PM
The other orange 14 AWG wire from the alternator that bypasses the trailer plug I mentioned in previous post, may be direct connected to the engine control panel as the replacement for the yellow and purple wire in the attached picture. My purple wire is there, but not connected to anything. I won't know until I remove the engine control panel and look.
See above.
In addition, this is an excerpt from the OEM History link:
"...one wire with a little connector between the alternator output and the starter (Fig. 2) Why? It was cheaper to build. That one big wire served two purposes: when starting it took power from the (selected) battery-or (ies) and fed it TO the starter, and through the small wire between the AO and the starter (small wire, short distance, high current, short time period of current flow); once the engine was running, the small wire did nothing, but the AO started flowing current BACK from the alternator to the switch in the opposite direction. Same wire, current flowed in a different direction."That small wire between the AO and the starter is CRITICAL to understanding what is there.
Also, here is a quote from Maine Sail's article that you found and read. The critical part of understanding what's happening is explained. That new red wire jumper is the key. What Maine Sail did was to REPLACE the short small wire between the AO output and the starter with a heavy gauge red wire. Better solution with heavier wire for the heavier load, same FUNCTION.
Here's the quick and dirty fix. Try to focus on the red wire between the back of the alternator and the starter post. Simply jump the alternator output to the starter post and disconnect the orange wire. With this jumper the alternator output bypasses the 20+/- feet of teeny tiny 10GA wire and uses the large gauge starter wire to make its way back to the battery switch and then to the battery banks. Minimal voltage drop compared to the 10GA circuit and much less resistance and heat without going through all that small wire and two trailer connectors.Think of it this way: Any wire has two ends. If it goes from the starter to the AO, it's the same as going from the AO to the starter. Go back to the OEM history again, and reread it a few times.
Good luck. Keep 'em coming.
PS - Ron's advice is superb. Save some work.
Amen to Ron's advice. The termstrip is an improvement on the trailer plugs but unnecessary. Make it fool-proof and connect the wires together.
Jon,
Do yourself a huge favor, and replace the wires all the way back to their termination at each engine component.
The problem is (sometimes, but) rarely the section of the harness between the gummy bear plug to the cockpit. The most problems are the sections between the gummy bear plugs and the engine terminations. I won't get on my soapbox here about the stupidity of the CD / Seaward harness "upgrade" -- it's been well covered herein before. Just understand that it isn't a panacea, and after you are done, the upgrade is still not ABYC compliant and leaves your entire harness unprotected from over current that might occur due to a short, and so therefore remains a fire hazard.
Remove the fuse at the starter solenoid - it's useless and is at the wrong end of the harness.
One tip - the 1/4" quick connect to the solenoid is problematic and subject to corrosion and loosening. Solder a wire w/ a female to the solenoid tab - cover the whole connection with HST. 6" away, put another male/female quick connect that's moisture-proof.
If you ever need to replace the solenoid I have one that replaces the OEM,, but has a threaded post for a ring terminal instead of a slide-on quick connect.
Heed Stu's advice about learning/understanding the purpose of each circuit.
Ken
Hi Ron, I have read your post(s) and will not be using the euro connectors. Ken, I will replace the engine wires back to their engine termination point with new, and try to solder an extension to the quick connect on the solenoid. The orange wire will be discarded. Saturday I will be taking the aft cabin apart to check if a strainer is in the diesel fuel line inside the tank. Removing the cabin bulkheads will let me see if the new 16 ft harness will reach from cockpit panel to the engine connections with slack for removal/maintenance. If not I'll need to add wire and butt splices at the engine end of the harness. If luck is on my side, I won't need any splices except for the fuse.
The fuse however seems to be all over the map. Use 20 amp, use 30 amp, don't do it, use ATC type, add a second fuse to the red wire (which is also in the engine manual schematic). Adding the 20 Amp ATC type for the reasons Mainsail points out, and moved away from the engine as Stu and others have done might be the way I make the upgrade. Not sure yet about the additional 30 Amp on the red wire. Still a couple of weeks to decide, but then all critical upgrades listed on this site will be complete. Other improvements and learning will continue.
Thanks to all for the great advice and guidance. Jon W
Quote from: Jon W on July 15, 2015, 09:37:46 AM
1. Removing the cabin bulkheads will let me see if the new 16 ft harness will reach from cockpit panel to the engine connections with slack for removal/maintenance. If not I'll need to add wire and butt splices at the engine end of the harness. If luck is on my side, I won't need any splices except for the fuse.
2. The fuse however seems to be all over the map. Use 20 amp, use 30 amp, don't do it, use ATC type, add a second fuse to the red wire (which is also in the engine manual schematic). Adding the 20 Amp ATC type for the reasons Mainsail points out, and moved away from the engine as Stu and others have done might be the way I make the upgrade.
Good to hear, Jon.
1. That 16 foot harness (i.e., wire only) was "designed" to reach from a Euro strip in the cockpit to a Euro strip in the engine compartment, not all the way to all the connections on the engine. On my boat, the engine Euro strip is located pretty much at the aft portside engine mount. So, as a guide, you should realize that the new wires, first, won't reach "all the way" to each component on the engine, and, second, you'll be doing a LOT of butt splices. I mention this only to avoid any assumptions on your part as to how far the wires will reach. In fact, Seaward at one point offered a longer 18 foot harness, but since you have the 16 foot one already... ITWMB, I'd connect the new wires to the instruments in the cockpit panel first, then snake the wires down to the engine area, and find a "comfortable" place to do the butt connections. This could well be from the aft compartment "hole" or from above with the engine covers off. Your boat, your back! :D Only seven wires, right? :clap While you're at it, instead of doing two butt connections for each wire, replace the wires that now connect to the engine with new longer wires that reach back to wherever the new harness wires end.
2. Ken's advice in Critical Upgrades is that the fuse between the start button and the starter solenoid is useless in that circuit, regardless of how "clever" I might have been in relocating it. While I haven't personally researched it myself, and have chosen to leave it in knowing it's a 'weak link' but at least very accessible, I would urge you to follow Ken's suggestions to deal with fusing the main lead to the cockpit panel. IIRC, that's his point.
Good luck, glad we could help.
Sorry guys, having difficulty understanding what you are talking about when it comes to gummy bears, termsticks, etc.
Here's a pic showing some do-hickies in my boats wiring harness.
Any chance you guys can post pics showing a harness gummy bear, termstrip etc look like?
Thanks.
Paul
Stu, poor wording on my part. I meant to say if the harness would not reach from cockpit panel to engine terminations with slack for maintenance/serviceability, I would connect directly to the cockpit panel and add the splices only at the engine end so they are accessible. I intend to have as few splices as possible. I'm going to take the wire to a local electrical supply to see if they carry this type wire or equivalent. Looking online THHN/THWN has less strands, but the exact same specifications as AWM otherwise. It even references THHN/THWN used as AWM.
I ran across the acronym RTFM, but what does ITWMB mean? If iT Was My Boat?
By main lead you mean the red wire from starter solenoid to the "B" side of the ignition switch (when VM installed). I believe this is the one Mainsail added a 30 amp inline fuse to.
Paul,
I don't have any pictures to post, but gummy bears refers to the trailer type electrical connections where the engine wires and extension wires (harness) join. They are also behind the engine control panel in the cockpit joining that end to the harness. The harness is simply 9 individual wires (5 14AWG and 4 10AWG) taped together and solder tinned at each end. Not really a harness in my opinion. Termsticks I think was meant to be terminal strips or euro strips which come with the harness upgrade kit to replace the plugs/ gummy bears.
Jon W.
Quote from: britinusa on July 15, 2015, 03:32:18 PM
Sorry guys, having difficulty understanding what you are talking about when it comes to gummy bears, termsticks, etc.
Here's a pic showing some do-hickies in my boats wiring harness.
Any chance you guys can post pics showing a harness gummy bear, termstrip etc look like?
Paul,
Your picture appears to show what are waterproof fuseholders, those yellow thingies.
To answer your other question, please read the Critical Upgrades topic, which has tons of posts about the wiring harness plugs, aka, gummy bears. There are links to many other threads with pictures.
Critical Upgrades http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5078.0.html (http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5078.0.html)
The term strips (Euro strips) are shown in the original wiring harness article located in the Tech wiki under engines: http://www.c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Engine_Harness_Upgrade (http://www.c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Engine_Harness_Upgrade)
Quote from: Jon W on July 15, 2015, 03:51:22 PM
Stu, poor wording on my part. I meant to say if the harness would not reach from cockpit panel to engine terminations with slack for maintenance/serviceability, I would connect directly to the cockpit panel and add the splices only at the engine end so they are accessible. I intend to have as few splices as possible. I'm going to take the wire to a local electrical supply to see if they carry this type wire or equivalent. Looking online THHN/THWN has less strands, but the exact same specifications as AWM otherwise. It even references THHN/THWN used as AWM.
I ran across the acronym RTFM, but what does ITWMB mean? If iT Was My Boat?
By main lead you mean the red wire from starter solenoid to the "B" side of the ignition switch (when VM installed). I believe this is the one Mainsail added a 30 amp inline fuse to.
Jon,
If you want to minimize butts, you will have to make ONLY one butt connection on each wire: where the wire harness wiring ends at the engine end and the new wires from the engine connections themselves. That's it, 7. However, remember that when you make up the new wires that connect to the engine, you're going to be making new connections there, too, like to the thermostat and oil pressure sensor new ring terminals, etc. So, 14. Each butt has two crimps, so 21.
Do you have a ratcheting crimper? If not, get one. It's a wonderful investment.
ITWMB mean? If iT Was My Boat? If That Was My Boat. Close! Good for you. :clap [I did make that one up myself.]
Don't overthink the wiring. You can buy Anchor wire at WM, figure the lengths and buy the right colors and gauges.
Main lead: see my last post, I dunno specifically, Ken does.
So, is this what is referred to as a 'TermStrip'
If so, IMHO not a good thing as there are no anti vibration restraints in place.
Is that the general consensus? or is it the preferred connection device?
(Sometimes it pays to just ask the dumb questions)
paul
Quote from: britinusa on July 15, 2015, 05:40:23 PM
So, is this what is referred to as a 'TermStrip'
If so, IMHO not a good thing as there are no anti vibration restraints in place.
Is that the general consensus? or is it the preferred connection device?
(Sometimes it pays to just ask the dumb questions)
Not a dumb question at all.
Nope, those are the Euro strips. Terms strips have screws to connect ring terminals.
1. anti vibration restraints --- has nothing to do with it. Anti vibration is taken care of with drip loops in the wiring to and from ANY terminal device, not in the device itself.
2. The disadvantage of this Euro strip is that the connection points are TINY compared to even the smallest standard terminal strip. In addition, the ends of the wires are under pressure from screws, also not recommended. Standard terminal strips use crimped on ring terminals.
Point being that the Euro strips were a bad answer to a horrible OEM with the gummy bear plugs while still an improvement over them.
Next is to go to terminal strips with ring terminals. They are also called terminal blocks, like the photo below.
Better yet, hard wire.
That said, the Euro strips that my PO put in over 20 years ago still work.
Quote from: britinusa on July 15, 2015, 03:32:18 PM
Sorry guys, having difficulty understanding what you are talking about when it comes to gummy bears, termsticks, etc.
Here's a pic showing some do-hickies in my boats wiring harness.
Any chance you guys can post pics showing a harness gummy bear, termstrip etc look like?
Thanks.
Paul
This is (was???) my trailer / aka "RV" plug after many years hiding under electrical tape I wrapped it in to keep corrosion out. It fell apart in my hand when I unwrapped it. Scary huh? There's a few problems with those plugs that I won't go into right now, and especially with the Catalina/cockpit harness half of the plug. Understand that half the plug is supplied by Universal/Westerbeke with the engine, the other half was manufactured.
I coined the phrase "Gummy Bear" several years ago because CTY/Seaward made the mating plugs (the amber colored half) out of basically hot glue in a mold, rather than buying the Universal/Westerbeke harnesses that mates to the OWM plug (the OEM plug is the hard white side.) That saved $$$$, of course, but when they get old and deteriorated from engine heat, they take on a "Gummy Bear" consistency and fall apart.
[attachimg=#]
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Ken
Quote from: Jon W on July 15, 2015, 03:51:22 PM
I'm going to take the wire to a local electrical supply to see if they carry this type wire or equivalent. Looking online THHN/THWN has less strands, but the exact same specifications as AWM otherwise. It even references THHN/THWN used as AWM.
Jon W.
Jon,
You want UL 1426 "Type 3" tinned marine wire. Type 3 is fine-stranded. meant to withstand vibration/flexing, as opposed to Type 2, which is SAE "truck wire." Type 3 tinned sells for:
AWG
8 - 0.75/ft
10 - 0.40
12 - 0.35
14 - 0.25
16 - 0.20
JTSO, FWIW, ITWMB, YBYC, etc <wink> I maintain that a "gold standard' harness upgrade for an M25/XP/XPA (if one needs heavy power to the cockpit) consists of a:
#1 wire - 8 awg negative return.
#2 wire - 10 awg wire to the glow plugs.
#3 wire - 10 awg "S" wire to the starter solenoid.
#5 wire - 8 awg power supply to panel.
#6/#9 wire - 12 awg for combined alternator excite and fuel pump power circuits (OEM they are separate wires which is **stoooopid**)
Only 16 awg is needed, but 12 awg avoids a separate fuse/breaker at the panel.
The wires below need no over-current protection:
#7 wire - 16 awg to oil pressure switch.
#8 wire - 16 awg to temp gauge sender.
#10 wire - 10 awg for tach a/c signal.
16 awg to high temp switch (if equipped with one.)
So for a properly sized, 16-foot harness the cost should be:
12.00 + 12.00 + 6.40 + 6.40 + 5.60 + 3.20 + 3.20 + 6.40 + 3.20 = $58.40 for a basic gold standard 16-foot harness.
For a bronze standard (10 awg instead of 8 awg power and negative) = $40.90
NOTE: If one has the glow plug relay mod, then a 20-a fuse on the #5 wire can me used. If a 20-a is used, then the #2 wire and the #6/9 wires can be reduced to 14 awg.)
Plus adding the following:
A maxi fuse holder on the #5 wire, with a 30-amp fuse or maxi breaker (unless one has the preheat solenoid/relay mod in the engine compartment, then reduce it to 20 amp.)
(if doing the bronze standard, then a
10-AWG ATC fuse holder.)
An 8 awg charge cable (#4 wire) from the Alt B+ (output) to the solenoid B post.
A new #2301 ground buss bar mounted near the engine.
Moving the battery negative from the bell housing bolt to a starter mount bolt.
A new 8 awg negative cable from that starter bolt to the new ground buss bar.
A new 8 awg ground cable from the Alt frame/B- terminal to the new ground buss bar.
If one has the OEM "8MR" Motorola alternator w/the pigtail and black plastic "excite" terminal: Clipping off the (untinned, non-moisture proof) terminal from the pigtail, and crimping on male/female moisture-proof, AHS quick-connect terminals.
Note that RC (mainesail) uses 6 awg for the alternator charge and negative cables because he doesn't have a suitable crimper for 8 awg. I do have one that does great #8 crimps, so I don't overkill those 2 cables -- obviously 6 awg is perfectly fine also.
BETTER YET, depending on your switch and battery bank set up (combiner?), run the charge cable right to the batteries.
Ken
Quote from: Jon W on July 15, 2015, 09:37:46 AM
The fuse however seems to be all over the map. Use 20 amp, use 30 amp, don't do it, use ATC type, add a second fuse to the red wire (which is also in the engine manual schematic). Adding the 20 Amp ATC type for the reasons Mainsail points out, and moved away from the engine as Stu and others have done might be the way I make the upgrade. Not sure yet about the additional 30 Amp on the red wire. Still a couple of weeks to decide, but then all critical upgrades listed on this site will be complete. Other improvements and learning will continue.
Jon, here's the poop on the two fuses....
1st - I ass/u/me you have an M25 or XP, basically OEM w/ no electrical mods or upgrades?
2nd - your boat your choice, FWIW, JTSO, etc. <wink>
3rd - I don't know your technical level, so some things below might be obvious, and some below may not be detailed enough -
4th - below is sort of disjointed and also part of my "Part 2" of the Universal harness problems/fixes that I haven't had time to finish writing up. Part 1 (the problems w/ the harness) was posted previously.
Take many pix (close up, before/after, etc) and I can use some when I do finish the write-up.
Do you have a *good quality* Adhesive Heat Shrink terminal crimper? And top quality AHS terminals? And top quality HS Tubing? Note that you cannot use a double-crimp type tool on AHS type terminals, you need a single-crimp-type tool.
Solenoid "S" (starter) wire
Crimp the adhesive heat shrink (AHS) 1/4" female quick connect terminal onto a 6" pigtail, then **carefully** solder it to the tab (don't allow the solder to cause a work hardening point on the pigtail.) Apply a couple layers HST to the pigtail/terminal so the wire has a strain/bend relief as it comes off the terminal. I use 1 layer of mil spec for that, but that's hard to find for 10 AWG diameter.
**caveat** soldering of boat electrical wiring is discouraged because most don't do so correctly, but it's FINE if done correctly. (ie, no hardening of the wire strands, proper heat sink when soldering, providing wire strain/bend relief, etc.)
Solenoid "S" (starter) wire fuse
The ONLY purpose of the fuse on the S wire -- is so that if it falls off the solenoid S terminal and shorted against the engine block *while* you are cranking, the fuse will protect the S wire. If there's a short between the panel and the fuse, it protects nothing. If you solder the pigtail to the solenoid, the need for a fuse there is zero.
#5 wire (power lead) fuse
You
** do need** a fuse on the power (#5 red) supply to the panel (per ABYC - within 7" of the solenoid B terminal post. One problem with that location is no one makes ring terminals that are heavy enough. Good, heavy "starter lugs" are available for 8 awg, but not for 10 awg. The ring terminals for an M8 post x 10 awg are crap and are way too light. If there's movement of the harness they will *eventually* bend, work-harden, and the ring break off. On a panel I did last year, the owner wanted heavy power to the cockpit (accessories, spotlight outlet, no starting issues, etc.) so I upgraded the #5 wire to 8 AWG,and used a starter lug and a maxi-fuse holder w/ a maxi-breaker for the over-current protection. See pic below.
[attachimg=#]
The new fuse would be on your 10 AWG #5 wire to the panel, so a 30 amp is fine, right?
NOT! When 'bundled" into a harness, 14 AWG w/ 105C insulation is good for 21a when inside the engine compartment. So the #5 fuse needs to be 20 amp UNLESS you have a fuse/breaker on the panel to protect wires/circuits from the panel back to the engine. Note the breaker shown above is 30 a (but I also upgraded the panel with a 20-a breaker.)
HOWEVER, unless you have the glow plug/preheat solenoid/relay mod, the current flow is 18 amps (3 x 6 amps) for the glow plugs (plus the start solenoid switch if you happen to "glow" while cranking -- I don't know what the pull-in amps are for that solenoid switch but have vowed to measure it (haven't yet.) So, you need a 30-a fuse on the #5 wire. IF you use an ATC fuse holder, then it's easy to try 20, 25, 30. Remember that even if the limit for 14 awg is 21 a, SOME protection is better than NO protection. Life isn't perfect -- especially when you're retrofitting with a substandard CD/Seaward product that is over-sized on some wires and under-sized on others (oooops now you have me started up again.)
If I have to use 10 AWG wire on a large terminal (larger than 1/4" post) then I do a no-no, but it's 100% better than using a substandard terminal. I use a heavy duty #8 lug, and double back the stripped 10 awg wire and crimp it, and then heat shrink it with mil spec adhesive heat shrink tubing. As I said, it isn't 100% Kosher, but until someone makes a HD lug for 10 awg wire, it's the next best option (again life isn't perfect) and the circular mils of doubled up 10 AWG is compatible with a #8 AWG lug.
Also, the panel should be rewired with AHS terminals and tinned wire. The OEM is completely inappropriate. See pix below of an OEM (Westerbeke, not Seaward) panel before and after (how Westerbeke should have manufactured it.)
[attachimg=#]
[attachimg=#]
Ken
Hi Ken,
After comparing yesterday, I will be using tinned stranded marine grade wire. The prices you list must be wholesale, 10AWG here is $0.74/ft.
I'm guessing For What its Worth, If That Were My Boat, Your Boat Your Choice, but you got me on JTSO.
I have a universal M25XP, a new PrestoLite / Leece-Neville 105 AMP alternator, and the charge cable is connected from the AO to the start solenoid. Otherwise no electrical upgrades that I've come across, and no glow plug relay.
I don't have a #9 or #10 wire. So guess that means no over current protection required on the #6 wire?
Why use a 2301 Blue Sea ground buss bar instead of a 2303? So many screws on the 2301 seems like a waste for 3 ground wires. Or am I looking at the wrong buss bar?
Glad to take pictures. Should I post on the message board for review? Just let me know.
I haven't bought anything but Kit "A" and the 16 ft harness. I will be buying AHS insulated ring terminals, butt connectors, F connect/disconnect, and HS Tubing. I was thinking #8 ring connector would work for wires #2, 3, 6, 7, 8, and ¼" for the #1 and 5. Seem right?
The maxi fuse holder is 6 AWG but the #5 wire is 8 AWG. Did you use a step down butt connector?
Upgraded the panel to add a breaker/fuse, but I can't see the 20A breaker/fuse in the picture. Where is the second fuse?
Great guide that I need to read a few more times. Let me know how you want to handle the pictures.
Jon W.
Jon, see below:
The prices you list must be wholesale, 10AWG here is $0.74/ft.
***
Those are my prices on Ancor when doing work or wire retail. I try to stay w/in pennies of the discount sites like Mike @ genuinedealz.com or bestboatwire.com. Mike is a good guy - he carries Pacer wire (I think) and the same good FTZ terminals that Rod (mainesail) likes and I have and use. Pacer is OK wire, I prefer Ancor, but not Ancor terminals.
***
you got me on JTSO.
*** Just THIS Sailor's Opinion *** <wink> - My own J One SO
I don't have a #9 or #10 wire. So guess that means no over current protection required on the #6 wire?
***
You have a #9 and a #10 (remember Stu's look at the circuit's/wire's PURPOSE, not just colors and numbers (OEM neither run thru the Gummy Bear.) Print and study an XP engine wiring schematic before you do this to understand each circuit's function. There WILL be a true/false test on this.
I'll give you the 1st answer..... "False." (to "The CD/Seaward harness kit solves the XP wiring issues.")
***
Why use a 2301 Blue Sea ground buss bar
***
I have every possible nearby ground (on my C-30) to a buss to eliminate voltage loss on negative runs back to the panel - bilge pump, port cabin lights, nav lights, water pressure pump, port side 12-v outlets (I installed 14 duplex outlets around the saloon, 5 in the vee, 2 on pedestal).
***
Should I post on the message board for review? Just let me know.
***Probably best to email to me KWKloeber@aol.com for my use, but posting? YFYC! ***
[/b]
**Your Forum, Your choice**
I was thinking #8 ring connector would work for wires #....
***
Here's the sizes I have for the XP - YMMV
#2, #8 ring @ GPs, #8 ring GP @ panel switch
#6, need to ck your alt post - probably #8
#7, #8 ring @ oil switch
#8, I have it as #8 ring @ sender, but I swear it is a #6.
and ¼" for the #1 and 5. YES
***
*** Of course the buss bar has #8s for any grounds. ***
The maxi fuse holder is 6 AWG but the #5 wire is 8 AWG. Did you use a step down butt connector?
*** As I recall on that job, I got a 6 AWG. Or maybe I could get the #6 (which is SAE size) into the #8 AWG size butt. (CRS.) ***
I can't see the 20A breaker/fuse in the picture. Where is the second fuse?
*** At the panel, protect the circuits returning back to the engine.***
Guys, if you two wanna take this offline, at the very least you owe us the conclusions. Why not keep it here?
Quote from: Jon W on July 16, 2015, 08:29:07 PM
The maxi fuse holder is 6 AWG but the #5 wire is 8 AWG. Did you use a step down butt connector?
jon,
If you do a search on 8 AWG maxifuse, there's a host of 8 awg maxis available. Of course they are 8 SAE gauge, not 8 AWG, but amperage isn't an issue, so that's not a concern. FWIW, anything over 10 AWG, I use uninsulatd terminals/heavy-duty butts and then HST them. For uninsulated terms, I use a dimple or my hex type crimper, rather than an AHS terminal type crimper.
Thanks Ken. I still have to solve my in tank fuel pick up tube problem, but when in there looking around I noticed the engine control panel electrical bits have no protection/housing around it. Catalina Direct has them for sale, but would appreciate feedback on whether that is something that should be added during this electrical upgrade process or is it $125 I don't need to spend? Thanks. Jon W.
Quote from: Jon W on July 21, 2015, 05:55:55 PM
Thanks Ken. I still have to solve my in tank fuel pick up tube problem, but when in there looking around I noticed the engine control panel electrical bits have no protection/housing around it. Catalina Direct has them for sale, but would appreciate feedback on whether that is something that should be added during this electrical upgrade process or is it $125 I don't need to spend? Thanks. Jon W.
Jon
The panel tray isn't really necessary, but I would defo redo the wiring on the panel using adhesive heat shrink terminals.
I'll put it this way -- a panel WITH tinned wire and AHS terminals w/o the tray, is a LOT better than a panel w/ the tray having crappy wire and terminals!
Ken
Guys,
If you wire in a start solenoid for the glow plugs, as there should be, then there is really no need for 8GA wire in the engine wiring harness because all you are powering is the fuel pump & solenoids (for seconds). These loads are fractions of what a 10GA 105C wire can easily handle.......
I do have crimp tools for 8GA I just often prefer to skip right over it, when I can, because 8GA is an oddball size with limited selections of terminals compared to 6GA or 10GA. My 8GA crimp tools are very expensive (USA made) and not tools a regular DIY would purchase so I often advise skipping 8GA rather than investing in a sub standard tool. I've yet to find an inexpensive 8GA tool I could recommend...
It also requires carrying yet another two crimp tools in my bag which already has about six crimp tools in it. A glow solenoid will run about $20.00 and is worth every penny and if mounted close to the starter solenoid 10GA wire is more than adequate for the 10-15 seconds it is being used to drive the plugs on an M-25.
On another note if anyone wants a true top quality USA made heat shrink crimp tool I have worked closely with a USA tool maker now for over two years and finally have one to offer. They are not cheap, $145.00, but you won't find a tool that makes a better formed crimp on heat shrink terminals. I generally sell these to professionals but if opting for DIY wiring I would highly recommend this tool!!
......
Quote from: mainesail on July 22, 2015, 07:21:00 AM
Guys,
If you wire in a start solenoid for the glow plugs, as there should be, then there is really no need for 8GA wire in the engine wiring harness because all you are powering is the fuel pump & solenoids (for seconds). These loads are fractions of what a 10GA 105C wire can easily handle.......
I do have crimp tools for 8GA I just often prefer to skip right over it, when I can, because 8GA is an oddball size with limited selections of terminals compared to 6GA or 10GA. My 8GA crimp tools are very expensive (USA made) and not tools a regular DIY would purchase so I often advise skipping 8GA rather than investing in a sub standard tool. I've yet to find an inexpensive 8GA tool I could recommend...
It also requires carrying yet another two crimp tools in my bag which already has about six crimp tools in it. A glow solenoid will run about $20.00 and is worth every penny and if mounted close to the starter solenoid 10GA wire is more than adequate for the 10-15 seconds it is being used to drive the plugs on an M-25.
On another note if anyone wants a true top quality USA made heat shrink crimp tool I have worked closely with a USA tool maker now for over two years and finally have one to offer. They are not cheap, $145.00, but you won't find a tool that makes a better formed crimp on heat shrink terminals. I generally sell these to professionals but if opting for DIY wiring I would highly recommend this tool!!
......
RC,
FIRST - DON'T keep us in the dark - link us to a quality AHS crimper!! :clap
What I had recalled from some post somewhere (I believe I think that I may remember that I recall - i.e., CRS) -- was that you couldn't find a decent 8GA crimper. I probably (no, likely DID) "mis-remember" that post.
I'm surprised that the range of 8GA terminals are less available than 6GA. For anything above 10GA, I use uninsulated lugs/butts and not AHS terminals -- so I can't comment on availability of AHS terms. But for starter and power lugs, I use FTZ, and find that there are as many sizes avail in 8GA as there are for 6GA (#10, 1/4, 5/16, 3/8, 1/2.)
I'm interested in why you characterize 8GA as "odd ball"? Every wire and terminal supplier I have seen has 8GA, so I'm unsure what you mean. And if one uses AHS terms w/ larger wire (I won't) you can get 8GA, but I haven't seen 6GA.
To clarify, on the particular harness with the 8GA, the owner wanted a high amp circuit / low voltage loss to the cockpit, and I wanted to provide as little voltage loss as reasonable versus the cost of copper -- the decision for 8Ga was driven by that, not by current capacity. Certainly 10GA was more than sufficient per 11.14.2. And if he was using a heavy-duty spotlight while cranking the GPs and engaging the starter (I put nothing past the decisions an owner may make at any given point in time), I wanted enough voltage to pop the solenoid.
Let me take a different angle on the preheat solenoid and harness wire size.....
On the preheat - I'm really torn by this. I believe the average person shouldn't have a preheat solenoid because the reasoning below. I don't think there's a clear winner "best" option -- but pros and cons to weigh out.
Introducing one more failure point - I installed one, but it's a
continuous-duty 40-amp, plug-in, power relay, not a "Ford" starter solenoid. (It shows our age if anyone remembers shorting out those with a screwdriver to crank the engine while working under the hood.) The relay is pop-in/pop-out in a socket and I carry a spare -- no need for even a screwdriver if it fails.
The real danger of burning out the coil and/or GPs - I know how long to crank the GPs, but I just had a customer burn out his Westerbeke OEM XPB preheat solenoid coil while trying run the pump to bleed the fuel lines. Stooopid stoopid set up that Wb/Univ has there, and POS solenoid -- but sometimes we have to idiot-proof systems to avoid disasters. Second, that the GPs are 10 volt -- it's not such a bad thing to have a long 10GA circuit to introduce some voltage loss into the equation. Again, I'm torn, but generally don't recommend a preheat solenoid to the "turn the key and go" type owner.
Ken
I've zoomed and scrolled but can't find the fuse. Where in the after picture of the engine panel wiring improvements is the fuse? Jon W
Quote from: Jon W on July 22, 2015, 08:12:40 PM
I've zoomed and scrolled but can't find the fuse. Where in the after picture of the engine panel wiring improvements is the fuse? Jon W
Jon
OHHHHH, now I get it. Apologies for the confuzion!
No they were two different jobs. The 8ga #5 wire w/ maxi fuse was on a C-30 with an M-25XP (no preheat solenoid) and OEM Seaward panel (I didn't have a pic of that.) It's just a 20a push-button breaker thru the panel face, with a clear silicone screw-on cap for weather protection. I also had a new Cole-Hersee dual alarm (light/buzzer) for the oil pressure and temp stitches.
The pic of the panel was just an example of making a bad panel good -- trashing the stake-on terminals and replacing with AHS terminals and decent wiring connections. That was on a CS-36T with a Westerbeke W-30 engine and Westerbeke Admiral panel. The W-30 is wired OEM with a 20-a breaker on the engine -- the set up is essentially similar to the M-25XPB, M-35B, etc. wiring and the harness is already protected. It also has a preheat solenoid, so the 20-a breaker is plenty. That was a broken Wb panel face and I also switched from the OEM "key-push-in" preheat switch, to a separate push-button preheat sw. The owner is pretty well on in years and found it hard to get his fingers in the little hole and hold the key in the preheat position.
Ken
That explains why I couldn't find it. Thought I was going blind for a moment.
Sent you an E-mail with a bunch of wiring photo's in the engine compartment. Let me know if they are what you're looking for and/or what would be more helpful. Engine control panel photo's may need to wait until I'm actually doing the upgrade. Jon W.