During the last several cruises, after an hour or so at 2500 RPM, the engine (25xp) will slowly lose power and die. My initial thought was air getting into the fuel system so I would immediately bleed the motor and after a while the engine will restart and regain power but only for another half hour or so, and then die out again. I would repeat the process until we were safely in the slip.
Another thing I noticed was our Facet pump was very hot, almost too hot to touch! This sounds like either a bad pump or an obstruction in the line. After inspecting all the usual suspects, including but not limited to, air from the primary Racor, installing a new Racor filter, installing a new secondary filter, checking the screen in the Facet Pump (Clear) and checking the fuel tank inlet for the dreaded pick-up screen (PO had already removed it), I removed the pump and took it my local parts guy for an opinion. He quickly did a bench test and indicated the pump didn’t sound right to him and we determined the pump was bad.
So last weekend I installed the new pump, checked the elec connections, installed all new 3/8 fuel line(Except the ½ return line), Installed all new filters, bled the system, checked and rechecked for air intrusion or any other blockages. I also added a fuel pump line switch as I did most of this work alone. Fired the motor up, ran up and down the estuary at 2500RPM for about 45 minutes with no issues. I pulled into the slip and now the NEW Facet pump is HOT!
Well crap…
I’m starting to run out of ideas here.
It’s time to consult the experts..
The filter and lines are installed correctly. Tank to Primary Racor to Fuel pump to secondary filter to injection pump.
I’ve read through much of Mainsail’s information and also Mr. Hill’s posts in the Tech Wiki and they’ve been very helpful.
I am going to replace the ½ return line next as that’s the only one I haven’t replaced yet. I even replaced the short line that runs from the secondary filter to the injection pump (Which I believe was original!) Hopefully it isn’t the injection pump itself. There is a PO installed fuel shutoff valve at the tank and it looks and works ok.
Any other ideas?
Am I missing something obvious?
What else could be heating up the fuel pump?
I’m not looking forward to the engine quitting again in tight quarters and having Stu shadow me back to my slip (Which he has graciously done.. Twice)..
A few pictures are here: http://public.fotki.com/sailorick/sv_painkiller/new-fuel-pump/ (http://public.fotki.com/sailorick/sv_painkiller/new-fuel-pump/)
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks!
Installed a new Facet in our 1986, C34 with an M-25 engine some years ago and had the same overheating problem. Even took it back and tried another new Facet pump. Same problem.
Solution: leave your knurled fuel return line on the engine open 1/2 a turn and the fuel flow keeps the Facet nice and cool.
Have had no further problems.
Gary
Thanks Gary, if the solution is that simple then you'll drink free in California forever!
I hadn't really considered that option before, I must have assumed that even with the knurled knob tightened down it still allowed some fuel into the return line. I'll give it a try next time I'm at the boat.
And I used to think it was my kids that gave me grey hair....
Thank you sir.
Hi Rick,
I am pretty sure you will find the pump runs cool with the return line know open 1/2 turn. Many C34 owners say they do this anyway as a way to continuously "polish fuel" in the tank and always leave it about a 1/2 turn open. The interesting and unanswered question is why this works ? Does it indicate a blockage somewhere else ? I will say that I was alarmed at the heat from the new pump and in 6 seasons can report that this solution has worked without any follow up problem.
Like the California drink offer :):) ~ please post and let us know if this solves your problem !
Gary
Guys : When the fuel bleed knob is completely closed there is NO fuel returning to the tank.
If you slightly open the knob you then have a "self bleeding " fuel system.
A thought
OK, good advice.
What it does NOT answer is why Rick's engine faltered.
Nor does it answer the issue of the fact that my knurled knob is closed and my engine works just fine, going on 17 years.
I have not checked the warmth of the Facet fuel pump, but I will my next time out.
Ideas?
Good questions Stu.
You have put what I was wondering about into clear ideas. I am wondering too if Rick's fuel tank pick up may blocked and need to be removed. If that filter is still in place it can cause the engine to falter after running for an hour.
Also wondering if newer Facet pumps operate at a higher pressure than older models and do overheat without fuel flow through them. Since I am not an engineer or an expert in these matters this remains a question in my mind. Perhaps others have and can add more understanding to Stu's questions.
Interesting thread ?
Gary
Quote from: Ron Hill on April 27, 2015, 02:00:12 PM
Guys : When the fuel bleed knob is completely closed there is NO fuel returning to the tank.
If you slightly open the knob you then have a "self bleeding " fuel system.
A thought
Ron, regardless of whether it solves his Facet pump heating issue, are you recommending keeping this knob cracked open all the time while running? What is the upside/downside of doing this, for us non-mechanics out there.
Quote from: Gary on April 27, 2015, 04:02:45 PM
Good questions Stu.
You have put what I was wondering about into clear ideas. I am wondering too if Rick's fuel tank pick up may blocked and need to be removed. If that filter is still in place it can cause the engine to falter after running for an hour.
Gary
Yes, the PO removed the fuel tank pick-up tube screen already and I removed the tube and made sure it was clear throughout. I'm making the assumption that the pump becoming hot and the engine faltering are part of the same problem. The pump is doing its job. It seems like a problem in the suck side as opposed to the blow side.
I'm down to the following ideas:
Replace the 1/2" fuel return line or check for a blockage (I've replaced all other fuel lines).
Re-check Racor fittings and check valves for a blockage
Look at the engine fuel injection pump, per Mr. Hill's Wiki article. Yuck..
Re-check the fuel tank itself for sludge continuing to block the pick-tube, which seems unlikely as the fuel pump IS pumping fuel...
Rick : It doesn't sound like the injection pump. The engine is quitting because it is either not getting fuel or air.
Disconnected the output from the electric fuel pump put a hose on it into a fuel can, turn on the switch and make sure fuel is squirting out.
The fuel lines from the tank are 3/8" and the return line is 1/4" (the thick hose fools you).
Also disconnect the fuel return line and again put another hose on it into a fuel container. Turn on the key to power the fuel pump and turn the bleed knob and look for fuel. Also run the engine like that and open the bleed valve and make sure that fuel is still flowing. Now you know fuel is flowing thru the system.
A few thoughts
Noah : I got the idea to open the bleed knob a crack to have fuel flowing thru the system from Joe Joyce the Westerbeke service manager.
It allows fuel to flow thur the entire system making the Racor polish more fuel than with the knob closed. Probably makes the fuel pump pump more. Guess I ran the system with the bleed knob shut for 15 years and with it cracked for 10 years.
I liked the idea of having a self bleeding system with the knob cracked. Stu seems to like the closed system with the bleed knob closed. Your Choice!!
A thought
Quote from: Ron Hill on April 28, 2015, 03:00:39 PM
1 Guess I ran the system with the bleed knob shut for 15 years and with it cracked for 10 years.
2 I liked the idea of having a self bleeding system with the knob cracked. Stu seems to like the closed system with the bleed knob closed. Your Choice!!
1 If I try it, I'll have run it closed for 29 years and open for at least the first time when I do! :D
2 It's not that I like it closed, it's that I haven't tried it open! See #1! :D :D :D
Rick, have you run a voltage check at the fuel pump terminals? Could this be an electrical issue? If after a period the pump is overheating and losing efficiency due to either under or over voltage heating it up it could give the appearance of a fuel restriction. Just a thought, if the mechanical fuel system issues all check out OK.
Thx Ron. Stu, I'd wait until your reach 30 yr. and then try it! Hate for you to miss that milestone! :cry4` 8)
Quote from: Robert Mann on April 28, 2015, 04:52:39 PM
Rick, have you run a voltage check at the fuel pump terminals? Could this be an electrical issue? If after a period the pump is overheating and losing efficiency due to either under or over voltage heating it up it could give the appearance of a fuel restriction. Just a thought, if the mechanical fuel system issues all check out OK.
Good idea Robert, I'll add a multimeter to my bag of tricks when I head back to the boat on Saturday.
Also, Thanks Ron for the encouraging news about the injection pump. I was not looking forward taking that beast apart!
I'll report my progress next week!
Have you taken your boat out since you replaced the fuel pump? Is it possible that you fixed the problem and maybe it's normal for the pump to run hot. Has anyone else checked their pump to see if it always runs cool? Another thought.
Mike
Quote from: Noah on April 27, 2015, 04:17:43 PM
Ron, regardless of whether it solves his Facet pump heating issue, are you recommending keeping this knob cracked open all the time while running? What is the upside/downside of doing this, for us non-mechanics out there.
Noah, if she runs like a top with the bleed cracked, there's no downside, and a little upside - higher flow thru the filters and so you have a little mini polishing system going on there. Not dramatic, but can't hurt.
When the bleed is closed, fuel that bypasses the injectors via the donuts (i.e., the fuel that they can't handle) still returns to the tank, so there's a tiny amount of "polishing" going on anyway.
Ken
Ken : Start an M25/M25XP engine, Close the bleed valve and Take the fuel return line off the aft injector and - see how much fuel come out!!
A thought
Guys- for the non-mechanics in the group. Here's a "thought". :D Also a humble request for guidance. How about dispense with the subtleties and take a stand?
Recommend:
1. Crack it open?
2. Keep it closed?
Thx
Noah 8)
Of course: with the usual caveat "your boat, your choice" :clap
PS- sorry if I infringed on anyone's copyright.
Quote from: Noah on April 30, 2015, 05:18:10 PM
Guys- for the non-mechanics in the group. Here's a "thought". :D Also a humble request for guidance. How about dispense with the subtleties and take a stand?
Recommend:
1. Crack it open?
2. Keep it closed?
Thx
Noah 8)
Of course: with the usual caveat "your boat, your choice" :clap
PS- sorry if I infringed on anyone's copyright.
Noah, I thought I was clear -- "
if she runs like a top with the bleed cracked, there's no downside, and a little upside "
The 'more open' the bleed, the more fuel polishing will be going on. You're simply creating a parallel loop past the injector pump to push more fuel flow. If (doubtful) the pump get starved (low power putting the hammer down) then close the bleed by smidgens. Nothing is absolute.
BTW my bleed screw doesn't return bled fuel to the fuel return line to the tank, it's just a port so I can see/check the fuel when I bleed the fuel line. I catch it in a solo cup so I can get a look (and probably a false sense of security.) But I could add a separate bypass loop w/ an in-line needle to create the same thing as you have.
Ken
So I managed to get down to the boat yesterday for more investigation. After replacing the ½" return line, I placed the tank end into a bucket and ran the pump with the knurled knob closed. No fuel flowed into the bucket. Cool. Opened the knob half a turn, some fuel flowed into the bucket. Cool. Opened the knob all the way, major fuel flow into the bucket. Very cool.
Re-connected all the lines, checked all the connections, opened the knob half a turn, started and ran the engine under load in the slip at 2000RPM for 30 minutes. Fuel pump stayed COOL to the touch the entire time and the engine ran strong. I checked the voltage to the pump per Robert Mann's suggestion and it seems to be within normal range.
Saturday I will install a new K&N air filter with a different breather route as I noticed the OEM filter is in pretty bad shape. "Mainsail" has a good write-up on it.
But that's a whole different thread...
Is the problem solved? Everything points to yes, but I'll shake her down over the weekend and see.
Thanks to everyone here for the helpful suggestions. This group has never failed to respond when help is requested.
Corinthian sailors all.
Thanks for the response Rick. It is always nice to hear the feedback on problem solving and close the loop.
Glad to hear that leaving the knob open a half turn cooled the pump down. It did that for KIJE and a new Facet Fuel Pump. Let's hope it cures the stall out problem as well :):)
Gary
Quote from: Stu Jackson on April 27, 2015, 03:34:37 PM
OK, good advice.
What it does NOT answer is why Rick's engine faltered.
Nor does it answer the issue of the fact that my knurled knob is closed and my engine works just fine, going on 17 years.
I have not checked the warmth of the Facet fuel pump, but I will my next time out.
Ideas?
I've had my 1987 C34 less than 2 years and had to replace the engine when I purchased the boat. I'm fairly certain that the "return" fuel line only runs a few inches past the "knurled knob" and is this closed at all times. I assumed this was for bleeding the fuel system is needed. I like the idea of this line running back to the fuel tank. Is there a fitting on the tank to attach the return fuel line?
Quote from: Noah on April 30, 2015, 05:18:10 PM
Guys- for the non-mechanics in the group. Here's a "thought". :D Also a humble request for guidance. How about dispense with the subtleties and take a stand?
Recommend:
1. Crack it open?
2. Keep it closed?
Thx
Noah 8)
Of course: with the usual caveat "your boat, your choice" :clap
PS- sorry if I infringed on anyone's copyright.
My valve has been closed since 1988.
I had no idea I had a problem?
(I wish my prostrate was as trouble free.)
Been following this thread past week or so. So yesterday I was at the boat and decided to check out the return valve thing.
First thing I discovered is that the PO had put a blue paint dot on the valve wheel at the closed point, and another at the 1/3 open point. So I set it at the blue dot, turned on the key checked the fuel pump and no ticking.
Strange I thought, since when I change the fuel filters and I open the valve fully it ticks and bleeds the system.
Start the engine and it runs and no ticking in the fuel pump, then the engine dies.
Start checking and the positive wire to the pump is laying in the bilges. The end going into the crimp fitting is corroded and broke/fell off.
So I pull the wire out, cut back some and re crimp with new fitting and it works as designed.
So glad it did not happen while motoring into the channel back to the marina.
Ralph
Quote from: Ralph Masters on May 07, 2015, 02:30:31 PM
Start checking and the positive wire to the pump is laying in the bilges. The end going into the crimp fitting is corroded and broke/fell off.
So I pull the wire out, cut back some and re crimp with new fitting and it works as designed.
So glad it did not happen while motoring into the channel back to the marina.
Ralph
Ralph,
This is such a common occurrence -- as it is with the starter solenoid quick connect, on-engine lift pumps on the B series engines, oil switches, etc, etc. -- the 1/4" quick-disconnect terminals were crap to begin with, and once in a marine environment they corrode, or loosen and fall off. There's no good way to provide moisture protection and still have them quick-remove.
Here's recommendation for y'all to bullet proof them.
1) Solder a female 1/4", non-insulated disconnect to the male terminals, with short (6"? YBYC) pigtail to a quality, tinned, sealing, male quick connect (I use FTZ terminals nearly exclusively on my harness/panel/engine harness rewires.)
2) Ensure it's soldered correctly so to NOT create a work-hardening stress point on the pigtail, or have someone who knows how to solder do it.
3) Put a shrink tubing bend relief in front of the soldered connector if necessary.
4) Adhesive-heat-shrink the soldered terminal to the male on the solenoid/pump/oil switch/whatever.
The new quality quick disconnect will give you a lifetime of service and no corrosion, and no ends dangling in the bilge.
All these connections should, by rights, be screw post terminals, not slip-ons! But then again, a farmer is used to constant maintenance/repairs, and not all that worried about channels (except staying within his plowed furrows.) :nail
Ken
PS.I tried a bullet list and it just ends up as garbage -- any guru clue as to how to make that work on these posts?