Am I foolish to try to run a C34 off of two Sears die hard deep cycle batteries and a 1 B 2 off switch? I ran my last 31 foot boat like that for 10 years and was never left without enough cranks amps to fire the engine. Last week I went on my first 5 day cruise and was left without enough juice to fire the engine, batteries both brand new this season. It made for a long sail home.
The boat started in the morning. I power sailed for about 45 minutes, shut off the engine and just ran my GPS, cooked a couple of hot dogs on the stove. When I went to fire the engine - No go on battery 2, No go on 1 and No go on both. I cleaned all my connections and still nothing?
Does anyone know of a good marine electrical guy in the Boston area?
Paul : Before the electrician arrives :
I'd check the voltage (multi meter) at the batteries (individually) when the engine is running and then when the shore power is ON.
At least, You can get an idea of what is happening. Simple range of voltages between 13.5V and 14V are good.
It is most likely that the batteries were not fully charged when you bought them and you may never have gotten them up to 100% before you tried to use them.
I'm sure that you'll get a TON of advice more Exacting than mine!! A few thoughts
Quote from: Set2sea on July 22, 2013, 01:52:57 PM
1. Am I foolish to try to run a C34 off of two Sears die hard deep cycle batteries and a 1 B 2 off switch?
2. Last week I went on my first 5 day cruise and was left without enough juice to fire the engine, batteries both brand new this season. ...I cleaned all my connections and still nothing?
3. Does anyone know of a good marine electrical guy in the Boston area?
Paul, sorry to hear about your bad experience.
1. Yes, if you have a fridge. No, if you don't, but do an energy budget since we have NO IDEA as to how much energy you use daily or how big each of your individual batteries is.
2. How old are the batteries?
3. If you are a DIY boater, then a marine electrician shouldn't be necessary. If you're not a DIY, then maybe an "installer" would be helpful 'cuz he'd have the right tools, but I've always felt knowing my electrical system was a MAJOR SAFETY ISSUE. The "Critical Upgrades" topic has some electrical information, and the "101 Topics" both here and on the wiki have "Electrical 101" including these two that might help you design a system that works for you:
Basic Battery Wiring Diagrams This is a very good basic primer for boat system wiring: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6604.0.html
This is another very good basic primer for boat system wiring: The 1-2-B Switch by Maine Sail (brings together a lot of what this subject is all about)
http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=137615
Good luck, but when it comes to electrical systems, I always suggest that luck should have NOTHING to do with it. :D :D :D
Paul,
As an owner without a fridge, I will agree with Stu that you can do it with your current setup. It is what we have. We can be on the hook for two nights, play the radio all day, lights on in the evening playing cards or reading, anchor light all night and start the engine on the same group 31 deep cycle battery. I keep one in reserve for the "just in case". Murphy is the hardest working Irishman. When day sailing, I switch back and forth between the batteries depending on which day it is. I use 1 if it is an odd numbered date, 2 if it if it is an even number. Throughout the sailing season it probably evens out. When cruising I will keep it on the same battery through the time out unless we have a windless day and motor for an extended time. If that happens I will put the switch to All and then switch batteries. This has been working for eight years without fail. Just to throw more fuel on the fire, the boat lives on a mooring. I have yet to be plugged in this year. I do not have a solar panel.
Your electrical system may need some tuning up. If the lugs on the cables are corroded they should be replaced and new lugs crimped and soldered on. Do you have the solenoid upgrade for the glow plugs? Has the wiring harness been upgraded? This one if it hasn't been done is also a fire hazard. Let us know what you have. This is all doable by an owner. If you don't know how to solder, YouTube has videos on this stuff.
Remember, it is all done with wires. It isn't hard, but it may take some problem solving. In the end you will know your boat very well so that you can rescue yourself.
Hi,
One thing that might help starting with not much batteries power.
Have you tried the decompression lever ?
Had this issue last year before having solar panel, being on a mooring. Just enough power to turn but was not starting. It did start like this
The decompression lever, IMHO, should be used as a case of last resort, but it's useful, as Patrice points out, to know it is there and how to use it.
It's discussed in somewhat more detail in the first part of this post:
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5409.msg33527.html#msg33527
I was able to start the engine last night with a jump pack. With voltmeter on the batteries, the batteries where not charging. Battery 2 was staying at around 11.75 volts but battery 1 was draining fast - like 2.5 volts? Battery 1 would come back up to 11.5 with engine draw off. I pulled the alternator and had it tested this morning. It tested fine. The guy said to check the regulator, he gave me a few things to look for in regulator. The fact that battery 1 is draining so fast should be tell tale but telling of what, I don't know? The gage on the engine panel is showing 13 volts with engine running.
"Shamrock" is wired (from the factory) so that only battery #1 charges from the alternator. To charge both batteries from the alternator move the selector switch to both. Don't know why they do that, or that your boat is that way. When a charged battery is added to a discharged battery the charged battery will quickly drain into the low battery. Sum power will be less. 13 volts (if that is accurate) is low to be charging batteries. Don't know if this helps you. Hope it does.
Jim
Paul : Jim is correct that 13.0V is not a sufficient charge from the alternator!! If the alternator is OK then I think you have a voltage regulator and or wire connection problem/s ??
From your battery voltages, it sounds as though neither battery has ever been charged to 100% or 12.75V. Turn on your shore power charger and get them back up to 100% charge.
Paul,
Do you have the wire-harness upgrade?
It is an odd problem in that the voltmeter at the engine panel is showing 13 volts or so but the batteries themselves are not charging. 13 volts, although lower than it should be, indicates that the alternator is putting out power. But the power is not getting to the batteries. That suggests a connection issue. Some thoughts:
1. I would check the voltage at the alternator output post when the engine is running. You need to be careful of the v-belt but you can do it from the access opening in the head. My bet is that it is going to show 14+ volts.
2. Have you checked the water level in the batteries? If it gets too low, the batteries will not hold a charge.
3. Assuming #s 1 and 2 are OK, I would check the connections of the red wire that runs between the common post of the battery switch and the starter. A failure at either of those two points would explain why the charging current from the alternator is not getting back to the batteries. There is a small jump wire that runs from your alternator to your starter and then the same wire that runs power from the batteries to the starter also runs power from the alternator through the starter and back to the common post on the battery switch and ultimately to the batteries.
4. My guess is that you do not have the wire harness upgrade and that resistance in the (horrible) black plugs is causing your alternator output to read 13 volts in the engine panel. Regardless of whether or not that is true, you need to replace those plugs. Either use a temstrip to make those connections or direct wire to the engine panel (that is what we did). But that is a peripheral issue to your current problem because the charging current from the alternator does not run through the engine panel.
A couple more thoughts to consider. Long-term I would consider doing a couple of things, particularly if you plan to be away from shore power for extended periods of time:
1. Install a reserve battery. There are many possible locations but we put ours forward of the starboard water tank. It was wired to the "2" post on the switch. We wired the two house batteries in parallel and ran those to the "1" post on the switch. That will double your house bank capacity and you will always know you can start the engine if you run down the house bank with the fridge, lights, etc. You can switch to "C" to charge both the house bank and the reserve bank or you can install an automatic charging relay between the house bank and the reserve battery so that the reserve battery is always getting charged. That is what we did and I just left the switch on "1" all the time.
2. Run a new charging wire directly from the alternator to the house bank (with the ACR I mentioned above). It is a more efficient way to charge your batteries than the jump wire from the alternator to the starter and the wire from the starter through the battery switch. You'll also not have to worry about frying your alternator if someone switches the battery switch to "OFF" when the engine is running.
3. Install a Victron digital battery monitor or a similar product. That way you will always know the exact state of charge of your batteries, including amp draw and remaining battery capacity. I find the analog gauges to be pretty close to useless. A fully charged battery is 12.73 volts and an 20 percent discharged battery is 12.5 volts and there is no way to distinguish that with an analog gauge. Check out Maine Sail's website for a discussion of the uses of battery monitors and the Victron model.
I had the exact same problem 3 weeks ago. I was sailing all day and both batteries are fully charged, when I went to return to port and start my engine, nothing, not on #1 or #2 or both. I sailed into my slip but after poking around i found, by accident while wiggling the wire that plugs into the starting motor solenoid and has an in-line fuse, I had power to the starter again. I unplugged the wire from the starting motor and removed the fuse at the other end. Both connectors on the fuse had black corrosion build-up that I sanded off clean ( both connectors on the fuse holder and both ends of the fuse ) I them smeared di-electric grease onto all connectors and reconnected. I haven't had any problems since.
I hope this might help! Sure sounds like the issue i had.
Capt Cod
For those of you new to a Catalina 34 and this Board, please, please, please read the
CRITICAL UPGRADES topic http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5078.0.html
It includes just these issues that seem to perplex new owners.
And, again welcome to the community.
As long as you are checking wires in the engine compartment, don't forget the main ground that is back behind the starter. Out of sight, it is often forgotten. Make sure it is clean and tight.
Guys : The problem that Capt Cod had and "discovered the solution to" was written up well over 20 years ago!!!
As Stu said there are MANY solutions to common problems in our Critical Update section.
Do a tiny bit of reading and it will save you a bunch of grief!
A thought
Would a blown fuse to the starter solenoid explain why the batteries are not getting charge from the alternator? I am trying to remember where that fuse is wired.
I am curious about the water level in the batteries. That would explain why the batteries are not holding a charge even if all the connections are good and the alternator is putting out charging current. It also is a simple explanation and easy to remedy, two of my favorite things when it comes to boat problems!
Thanks all for the input. I should be heading out to the boat tonight with two fully charged batteries and an electrical engineer friend that knows boat wiring, hopefully we can get to the bottom of it. I am printing out all of your comments and bringing with me.
I just want to go sailing!!! Whaaa Whaa :cry4`
Clay : The fuse to the starter solenoid if blown just means that you can't start the engine - as the starter will not turn over!!
We know how you feel. When we first came aboard our C34, we thought we were going to be going sailing on a sailboat, and quickly realized that the majority of our first year was going to be focused below deck on engines, electrical issues, plumbing, tankage, etc., and not on sails and sailing. It took a year of just being patient, reading the forum twice a day, making to-do lists, and resolving each system. We still spend more time worrying about engines, electrical issues, etc., but the boat is now also a sailing craft, which when aboard, we enjoy immensely . It will all come together.
This thread is very timely for us, as our Battery #2 died while we were on a two week vacation. We were using both batteries normally together (switch set to ALL), but we noticed that even after a day of motoring (light winds) that they went down to 50% in almost no time at all (our fridge was on). So I alternated batteries when motoring and then next day while running on battery #1, battery #2 completely discharged on its own. We survived the remainder of the vacation (over a week) by just leaving the switch on #1.
Hydrometer readings showed that one cell on battery #2 was dead (in the red). All the other cells were great (actually higher then the cells of the good battery #1), but that one cell killed the rest of the battery. What I'm wondering is if there is a way to "rejuvenate" the battery or am I looking at getting new ones? The pair are big wet probably 4D batteries. A sticker indicates that they were shipped 2007. My understanding s that they might be getting close to end of life, but I also heard how many have had batteries last for 10+ years. I've been reading about "equalizing" of batteries, but it sounds like it only works if the battery is still good.
As to why it happened, I'm not sure if this is the reason... after doing a trace of the DC wiring I found that the windlass was directly wired to the #2 post on the 1-2-ALL-None switch. So no matter how the switch was turned, the windlass was always on #2.
Quote from: fkoehlmann on July 28, 2013, 08:53:31 PM
1. Hydrometer readings showed that one cell on battery #2 was dead (in the red). All the other cells were great (actually higher then the cells of the good battery #1), but that one cell killed the rest of the battery. What I'm wondering is if there is a way to "rejuvenate" the battery or am I looking at getting new ones? The pair are big wet probably 4D batteries. A sticker indicates that they were shipped 2007. My understanding s that they might be getting close to end of life, but I also heard how many have had batteries last for 10+ years. I've been reading about "equalizing" of batteries, but it sounds like it only works if the battery is still good.
2. As to why it happened, I'm not sure if this is the reason... after doing a trace of the DC wiring I found that the windlass was directly wired to the #2 post on the 1-2-ALL-None switch. So no matter how the switch was turned, the windlass was always on #2.
1. Equalizing wet cell batteries is not something that is used to bring them back from the dead. :cry4` It is part of regular battery maintenance. It sounds like your one battery is toast. How many years a bank lasts has to do with the "proper care and feeding" of the batteries. Many battery issues are discussed in the "Electrical 101" topic. The linked Ample Power Primer is a very useful tutorial on battery health. It appears you need a new set of batteries. If, however, you continue to run on 1 and then 2 (called "alternating two equal house banks"), you could just buy one new battery. That way you won't be mixing old & new in a single bank, except for when charging sources are present. That would be the most cost effective solution, if you choose to continue to use the alternating house bank concept. This does however, reduce the life of your batteries as discussed in the wiring discussions in the "Electrical 101" topic posts - same batteries, same amount of lead, but separated batteries used alternately will not last as long as a larger single bank.
2. Nope. You just had a bad cell or one that went bad. Has nothing to do with how the windlass was wired, since it only should be drawing current when it's running.
Thanks Stu,
I sort of thought that would be the answer. I figure that I'll replace both with new for the house and maybe save the good one for backup/starter battery (not sure which way yet). The only thing is that these 4Ds are such beasts and finding another location for it is not so easy (unless I want to steal from easy to access storage).
I guess I should be able to hobble through the rest of our short summer with the one battery.
Frederick,
Since one 4D is toast, think about converting to all golf cart batteries. If you take out the fiberglass pans that house the current 4 D's, you can put 4 group 24 battery boxes (from West Marine), and they each will hold one 6 volt golf cart battery.
Why golf cart batteries? Why do you and others use them instead of 12V?
Paul : You have just lit a fire under the Battery Gaurs!
Look on our site and there is tons written on using golf cart batteries for the hose bank!!
Check WiKi. A thought
Frederick:
If you go with new batteries, golf cart batteries are the way to go. If you don't have room for the extra
good battery for a starter battery you can get by real good with a small auto battery for less money (when
buying new) and also lighter and take up less space. We went with that set-up a few years ago and have
been extremely pleased.
Larry
Quote from: Set2sea on July 29, 2013, 12:08:30 PM
Why golf cart batteries? Why do you and others use them instead of 12V?
Paul, the C34 Tech wiki has some answers to your questions.
http://www.c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Electrical
Scroll down to Batteries.
Basic answer:
--- less weight per unit so easier to move onto the boat without breaking your back
--- heavy plates designed for deep cycles on golf carts that take lots of abuse
--- small footprint, easy to fit in unusual spaces
--- easy to find, cost effective, best bag-for-the-buck in size vs amp hours
6V need to be wired in series then parallel. The "Electrical 101" topic has a link to a "how to"
Thanks for the golf battery explanation Stu.
Well I solved the batteries not charging mystery last night.
The reason my batteries weren't charging was because of too loose belt tension!! I had been unsatisfied with the belt tension I had seen on the hard and I tried to get it tighter more than once. Last night I opened the engine compartment and I could turn the belt without it turning alternator (oh the alternator need to turn to charge the batteries?:). I put a big fender washer under the bracket screw, pulled the alternator back as far as I could and tightened. When I cranked up the engine I finally saw 14 volts on my batteries!! Now hopefully she can retain that belt tension. I do have the upgraded alternator bracket. The bracket is so narrow and the slot is so close to the end, there isn't a lot of surface area for the screw to grab, hence the large fender washer. Going to search for keeping the alternator where you want it, as I'm sure it's been written up : )
On to my leaky water pump and oh yeah, that brand new JABSCO Twist and Lock that wont pump the bowl! Sure is fun taking that apart and having the "lovely water" going everywhere.
This weekend I am without kids and wife so I am talking a half day Friday and sailing to Gloucester for the weekend come hell or high brown water!!
Congratulations on figuring this out!
Paul : Go to JC Whitney and purchase yourself a "Belt Tightening Tool". It's about $10!!
A thought
Paul: Another tip I wrote up years ago was how to keep the alternator adjustment in place.
Check the length of the bolts on the adjustment arm and you'll find that the if you use a longer bolt there are more threads to keep it tight!!
A thought
Ron, I can't find it at JC Whitney anymore!
But for twice the price $19.67 MSC Direct still has it, http://www.mscdirect.com/product/35438209
Quote from: Set2sea on July 30, 2013, 06:40:09 AM
Thanks for the golf battery explanation Stu.
Now hopefully she can retain that belt tension. I do have the upgraded alternator bracket. The bracket is so narrow and the slot is so close to the end, there isn't a lot of surface area for the screw to grab, hence the large fender washer. Going to search for keeping the alternator where you want it, as I'm sure it's been written up : )
Paul, glad to help. If you go back to the Critical Upgrades, and after you purchase your alternator belt tensioner, read about the alternator pivot bolts, here:
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5078.msg47017.html#msg47017
Hope you had a great cruise.
I have also used a small ratcheting bar clamp from harbor freight. You can reverse one of the clamp arms and it turns into a spreader. Worked for me.
Mike
Guys : The longer (only by about 1/4"-1/2" ) bolts are for the adjust arm, not the thru bolt for the pivot point on the top of the alternator.
That pivot bolt should only be threaded about an inch from the end!!
A few thoughts