Thought I would start a new thread. I am taking delivery of my new Beta 25 tomorrow. I am sure the repower will keep me busy for a few days, hopefully not weeks or months.
Now just need to work on my listing for the classified section, "For sale M25XP, 2900 hours, recent valve job, fresh paint on the bits you can see, new injectors, glow plugs, really clean oil, new belt, new K&N filter, recent water pumps fresh and raw, good for another 2900 hours. May need rebore, new pistons, rings, bearings, seals, oil pan, and other minor maintenance for optimal power & emissions performance."
What are you going to do about the exhaust? Does their mixing elbow fit in the space available or do you need a new riser?
I am getting a threaded stub flange which may be a direct fit for the current exhaust or I may be having bits welded up on Monday. That is probably among the bigger challenges on this repower. The panel may be an adventure as well. I see notes on a "shutoff solenoid". What, no more T handle?
Steve,
Lots of respect for your diligence and efforts. You have gone to places I would not be comfortable doing in the re-build. I do have two questions though.
What happened so suddenly to leave the old engine and go for the new?
And what is your thinking on the Beta rather than an exact replacement Universal?
Thanks Steve and the best as you continue your efforts at rework and re-powering Blackdragon.
Gary
Steve : I was faced with the same problem of the "Engine Instrument Panel" when I put in my new engine??
I went with rewiring the engine to match the wiring/panel already in the boat. I used the same fuel lift pump, change the oil pressure switch to a single pole and had to install a new temperature sender. Those parts were available from Kubota and low cost.
I also adapted my duel output Balmar alternator to fit.
I just didn't want to screw around with a different size panel in the cockpit! It was easily done and you are knowledgeable about what is already there - so think about it!!
A few thoughts
Steve : Here's another tip which you may have thought about, but just in case ...
While the engine is still on the shipping crate, check the orientation of all of the hose clamps. Just imagine that the engine in installed in the engine compartment and envision that you need to tighten or change hoses or other items and how you would access them.
That could save you a bunch of grief in the future!!
A few thoughts
My decision path seem somewhat wild, reckless, and based on ignorance. Typically repowering decisions are based on careful planning, thought, and research usually after a thorough assessment of the old power plant by one or more highly competent and trusted diesel mechanics.
Interestingly, when we first experienced the oil barfing problem (which I now believe to be the result of a combination of a blockage of the crankcase vent tube and a failing #2 piston ring), my wife asked "What's the worst case scenario? That we have to get a new engine?" I explained that no, the worst case scenario is that our summer slips away while diesel mechanics charge us thousands of dollars to pronounce the old engine dead and then we buy a new engine. We lose the sailing season and throw money away.
First of all, I think there are very good diesel mechanics who could probably have helped me properly diagnose and fix whatever ailed the old engine more quickly and economically than the path I have taken. I am at a little bit of a disadvantage in that I don't really know one. I think part of the problem is at any point where I have had problem, I just fire up the C34 web site and there is the answer. When there is a strange noise in the middle of the night off the coast of Mexico, there are no diesel mechanics, so you dig in to the problem, fire up the computer find out how others have solved the problem, and you make it right.
So last Monday, 12 days ago, the professional mechanic told me there was nothing wrong with my engine. Unfortunately, I couldn't be there when he was at the boat. Some of his explanations to me sounded not right, but I am not mechanic so I was happy that I had a clean bill of health and did not get to the boat until Friday. Friday night the white smoke that was there in abundance. Mechanic suggested I should service the injectors - so I put in new injectors - no change. Mechanic suggested i should check the exhaust for clogging. I checked the exhaust. Went for a run. Boat lost power and died.
So there I sat in my boat Friday night. I had already at this point pissed away two weeks. One week waiting for the mechanic to be available. Another week trusting his assessment and doing nothing to fix the problem. I felt like I was on the path to hell and made the decision then and there to repower.
It's a 25 year old engine. These things are not your sick loved ones whose side you will stick by and do anything and everything to ensure that heroic efforts are made to give them the best quality of life in their final years. It's OK to pull the plug and move on.
So having made the decision to repower, I actually had two days of dead time over the weekend in which I couldn't make any progress on sourcing a new engine. So why not start by doing a proper compression test that the mechanic didn't do when I asked him too. I guess they don't carry around the test set? So I bought a set and went to work. And I made some errors. The differential between my wet numbers and my dry numbers was not high and probably because I didn't put enough oil in the cylinder. I concluded that valves might be the problem - or maybe a head gasket. So what the hell nothing better to do. Tear the head off and have a look. And maybe got carried away. I had a naked head with freshly seated valves by Sunday afternoon. And took a little extra time to make things pretty put it back together by Wednesday night. If I was really smart or had consulted a professional I might have concluded that valves weren't really my problem.
With my new found engine skills, I actually contemplated going ahead with the bottom end with engine in situ. Worked for Dave Sanner. But really this engine has some issues. It is for sure rebuildable, but to do it right, I think I really need to pull it and add a nice micrometer to go with my new compression test set. I might learn fast, but summer is slipping away.
So on with plan A. This part might be alarming. I had talked to the distributor a couple of weeks ago and he had a shiney new M25XPB in stock. I called him yesterday and he had sold it. I had thought about a Beta, but wanted a more close drop in replacement. Didn't want to wait three weeks. Called the Beta dealer. He had stock. I bought it yesterday. Brother in law is on the ferry to go get the engine this morning. I heading to the boat to tear out the old one.
My vacation starts today. I realize repowering typically takes weeks in the yard when handled by pros. I am shooting for days installed by an amateur. I may be crazy but if I just assume the job is too big and too difficult, it definitely won't happen.
So gotta run. I'll try and take some pictures. Sorry for the long answer.
Quote from: Ron Hill on July 20, 2013, 08:40:27 AM
Steve : Here's another tip which you may have thought about, but just in case ...
While the engine is still on the shipping crate, check the orientation of all of the hose clamps. Just imagine that the engine in installed in the engine compartment and envision that you need to tighten or change hoses or other items and how you would access them.
That could save you a bunch of grief in the future!!
A few thoughts
Good call. Thanks.
On the panel, I went the full package with all the instruments and idiot lights. It is definitely oversize. I am going to pluck all the components out and machine a new plastic panel to accommodate. I have one more instrument (oil pressure) to fit in the same space, so I think it can be done. I'll have their harness in my hands in a few hours.
Steve,
Just a great answer to the questions asked about re-powering. You make it sound like "the great adventure" with your writing style! I will assume there are some heavy duty moments in there too.
Thanks for taking valuable time for the extended answer....much appreciated.
We will hope Blackdragon is soon ready for the vacation.
Gary
I have looked at these puppies too.
Beta are also a Kabuta base but built in England.
I was thinking of the 30 hp though.
I will be following this post.
Good luck with the install Steve.
Tony
I also repowered my 1987 C34, but chose to use the BETA 28. I chose the upgraded engine panel as well. I am very happy with this new engine. Because it is Kubota based it is familiar and the BETA has many features that make it user friendly ~ such as the oil change pump mounted on the starboard side of the engine. While the old M25XP (approx. 3500 hrs) still ran, it was beginning to require too much attention. Additionally, I have always felt it was underpowered for my boat. I was able to sell this engine to a Tartan owner who is repowering from an Atomic 4. :thumb:
I am a little behind on my pictures. The old engine is out. No real problems. Though half inch impact wrench made disconnecting the coupling a lot easier. Foster rigged our lift by moving all the mainsheet blocks back one bail. We had precision control dropping the new one in and could float it a fraction of an inch above the mounting spots with perfect control by halyard and mainsheet. I think Foster was most impressed that I didn't even check his knots. He's 15 now, and I trust him with my life.
The Beta wants to sit lower than the Universal, so we built the bed up 3/4 of an inch. It's all in and aligned. Only some small grinding to accommodate the shift linkage. Fuel is hooked up. Throttle and shift linkage are done. Stop lever is ripped out. Mostly plumbed. Now working on the wiring. The big challenge is pulling out the old and useless wiring. (I don't like wires that don't do anything.) The Beta panel was lovely, but didn't fit the space and lacked a fuel guage. So a bit of machining at Blackdragon Works and we are ready to go tomorrow. Exhaust aligns well, but I need to get the flange welded to my riser tomorrow and we should be good to fire up once fluids are in and checks are done.
I am impressed that you got your Beta so quickly, still watching my season drift by waiting for my 30.
I wil be going with the large panel as well.
Where did you put your fuel gauge?
Good idea about the clamp orientation.
Really keen on hearing your comments about performance.
Remarkable that we are going through virtually the same expensive scenario at the same time!!
Quote from: Andrew Harvey on July 22, 2013, 07:58:38 AM
Where did you put your fuel gauge?
I may not be getting enough sleep. I thought I posted the picture of my modified panel, but it seemed to look different a moment ago. Fuel guage is next to the key switch. It doesn't look like the other gauges, but it's close enough. I'll try and post again.
Fuel gauge?!? :abd: :shock: :? :cry4`
And here I thought all you needed to do was to get a new tach for the old panel.
Geez, you really beat up on your boats! :abd:
The color is nice though, and I'll bet you're gonna be the first one to tell us how EASY an oil change is on one of these new-fangled red thingies. :clap
I recommend that you paint all of your hoses the same color as the engine. That'll make it look just like the factory did it.
What knots did Foster use? Yup, a great deal of trust, but a cruise to Mexico will certainly develop those traits. :D
OK , I get it now, you made a new panel, must be Monday!
Some other pics. You will be a quarter inch too tall and an inch and a bit too narrow. You can fabricate new or find a way to fit the factory panel in the space.
New panel is installed. Power is connected. Plumbing is connected. Fuel is connected. Engine is mounted and aligned. Shift & throttle cables installed and adjusted. It fires up and shifts into forward and reverse. Engine is very quiet and smooth. It will idle at 700 rpm and not shake the boat. Actually have to look at the prop shaft turning to see that it has shifted. There is no clunking or labouring. Very smooth transmission.
So it appears that amateurs can complete a re-power in a couple of days. Of course there is the advantage of having a pure focus and no other jobs or customers competing for attention.
Just a couple of gauges to complete the wiring on and a little bit of wood sculpting to recess a spot in the stairs for a rigid tube and we are off tomorrow. It's like having a baby without getting pregnant. Ordered the engine on Friday and ready to go on Tuesday with a custom engine panel.
I cut off the old T handle with a hacksaw and pulled the cable. Now it is just sitting in there with a 2" stub plugging the hole. I think I will holler up to Tracey from down below, "Stop the engine!" and watch her reaction when the handle comes off in her hand.
Off to Desolation. I promise I'll take some pictures.
Here is a shot of the new panel showing 1500 rpm, 0 hours, and a green light...
A few observations on the differences from the old M25XP:
Very very smooth operation - no shaking at low RPM
Much quieter.
Very smooth transmission.
Crankcase ventilates directly from valve cover into intake - no mess.
Solenoid for shutoff.
Solenoids for glow plugs.
Oil change pump mounted on engine.
Drain spout with shutoff for coolant.
Fuel lift pump mounted on engine.
Heat exchanger integrated into coolant tank/exhaust manifold with easy access for service / zinc changes.
Dipstick up high and in front.
Transmission dip stick and fill access from above.
And one other trivial thing, but it makes all the difference. Turn the key back for ten seconds of glowplugs, forward to start, and then release and the engine is purring. Very smooth tactile feel. Like starting a fine car except fine cars don't have keys any more.
Overall, somebody has put a lot of thought into these engines. They have come a long way in the last few decades. Can't wait to see how it does in sea trials.
Steve - You're amazing! I think you could have a second career repowering C34's. Gallery Marine in Seattle estimated about $7K in labor for a repower. You could do two or three a month and spend the other three weeks sailing! :thumb:
Craig
Steve : Besides Amazing you are also Tenacious!!
An old picture of my younger self!! (smile)
Great job!!
Thanks guys! We are on the hook in an anchorage now enjoying some chardonnay. The mess is all cleaned up. Engine performs nicely. Runs a little hotter than the old one - 180 on the guage compared to 160 on the M25. Very smooth and quiet. Idles very nicely at 700 rpm and will go to 3500 rpm. Seems to have plenty of power and really decent manners. No smoke. So a repower seems to have fixed the little problem I was having.
I don't know about the second career though. I think going forward I would have to pay my helper more than cheeseburgers. And I am not sure customers appreciate having their valves done and then being told they need to repower. Though I think we probably will do the full rebuild on the old one. It would be a good winter project and a rebuilt engine is probably worth a good deal more than a parts donor.
I guess overall we worked for about 30 hours to do the repower. A lot of work, but glad it is done. A little adjustment on the stuffing box tomorrow and we should be done completely.
Congratulations to the whole family!
Did you pull the stop handle trick with Tracy? :D :D :D
Different operating temperatures: could be different thermostats (I've used both 160s and 180s).
Happy cruising.
OK. I will confess. I may have now gone just one step too far. But really, cruising is all about doing boat maintenance in exotic locations.
The new engine is great. No digging in the dark for the dipstick, but I still wanted to be able to see everything without having to hold a flashlight or wear headlight. So...
Waterproof LED lights. Two strips on the engine bed and one strip overhead with a handy switch.
Now I just stand there and admire it in all it's glory.
Tracey thinks I should install a cup holder. She says I love the engine more than her. I tell her it's not true. I just haven't installed LEDs on her yet.
Steve, I think you also need an overhead spotlight from the cabin top.
Also you could connect the stop handle to a loud claxon horn to scare the daylights out of the assigned engine stopper.
I know.....I'm just a trouble maker :twisted:
And, BTW, with the 180 degree thermostat you get really hot water as a bonus!
A friend just installed a 30HP Beta in a Pacific Seacraft 34 and he loves it.
I am green with envy.
Still waiting for my 30 to be delivered. Expedited 2 weeks is now into week 5.
On the bright side, a lot of projects have been completed at the dock.. even got to reorganize my tool box.
Hi Steve,
Just want to say thanks for sharing this with us, really encourages me to to press on and take care of the bigger, 'scarier' stuff on my own instead of owing my soul to the company store! Seems like every time I do I end up learning such amazing things about my little ship and about myself and I really think that in the end I do a better job than the 'pro's' because mine is truly a labor or love.
The pride you take in your work is evident and very inspiring to us all.
Thanks again!
Kirk
Thanks Kirk. The more things I try, the more I learn, and the more cool tools I get to buy. I find that the do-overs and mistakes are more than offset by the time and money I save by doing it myself. The big limitation for anything we do is knowledge. With guys like Ron, Stu, Mainesail and others on sites like this and other places who give generously of their time and knowledge, most anything becomes within reach of ordinary skills. The trick is knowing what you don't know so that you don't burn your boat to the waterline, kill your family with carbon monoxide, lose your rig in a chop, hydraulically lock your engine, and rupture the hull to deck joint by means of rapid oxidation of propane gas. The rest is easy.
And then there are days like this when you wonder why you have an engine at all...
Steve,
What a job you just completed. I see your slip is empty and we are heading into one of the longest stretches of sunny weather in BC coast history. I just finished two and half weeks in Desolation Sound...magic.
You'll no doubt enjoy it up there even more this trip!
Hawk
Hawk, we are back. We changed crew in Campbell River and brother-in-law has the boat. If he comes back with more than 50 hours on the new engine and hasn't changed the oil at the first interval, the white objects on the sea bed at my siip will be his bones plucked clean by the crabs.
Damn, thinking out loud again. Must remember, never post in public forum anything that might be presented as evidence. Forget I mentioned it.
Loaded the old M25XP into the back of somebody's truck this week. They loaded a thousand dollars into my wallet. A fair exchange.
I actually had some regret. I think it would have been fun to finish the rebuild, but I think I would rather put the energy into building a guitar.
There was another loose end on this project. I had to settle the bill with the mechanic. They are highly reputable local company, but I think they completely missed on the diagnostic work on the old engine. I decided not to make it a big confrontation. I sent them a letter with details right down to compression readings and gave them a choice:
"I have enclosed two cheques which in total amount to what is on the invoice. If you feel that this is your best service and are proud of the work done on my boat, by all means cash them both. If you feel that you may have missed on this one and don't feel entirely comfortable with the work in this case, maybe you only want to cash one of the cheques. Your call."
They cashed none.
Thanks for the ending of the story. Very cool by all concerned. Good job on the engine swap!!
Steve, it has been 3 years since you did this. Are you still happy with the Beta? I am in the process of repowering and I really don't want a third Universal. I have seen where others including you have gone Beta 25 and liked them, but then it has been quiet for a bit. If you are still reading these forums, any additional history/thoughts are welcome. Thanks, Joel
Hi Joel,
Yes I was happy with the Beta right up to the end. I would definitely go down the same path again. Having said that, the oil pan gasket began to leak just after I sold the boat. Tightening the bolts didn't fix the problem. The new owner went to Beta (I left him the receipt for the engine buy). The dealer pulled the pan and replaced the gasket for him at no charge under warranty.
I think they are good engines and the service here locally is great. But then maybe it's not fair to compare a new Beta with a 25 year old Universal. Maybe the new Universals are just as good. I don't know. I have a pair of Volvos now with saildrives. Just spent 20K on a new leg and prop that suffered impact damage. It sort of sucks to buy a new Volvo and not get any leather seats or power windows! I would kill for a pair of Betas with conventional shafts and stuffing boxes. Though I have to say, I do like folding props...
Hey Steve, I had noticed your boat MIA at the marina then was in Seattle recently talking with Pete at Swiftsure when your name came up and he said you bought a cat. U keep it in Vancouver?
Tom
Hi Tom,
You'll find Blackdragon over at Burrard Civic. We did get a new cat. 1999 Manta 40. We keep it at Reed Point. I think we'll be over at Keats on the weekend.
This boat is wildly different than a Catalina 34. It's just built for a whole different purpose. It's not a performance cat. It's not a charter cat with sliding patio doors and flybridge. It's decently performing cruising cat designed for a couple to sail around the world with absolute ease and comfort. Acres of solar, water maker, SSB, air conditioning, genset, Leisurefurl, etc. etc. The systems are amazing. It is such a pleasure to sail. You can fart and it will do 4 knots. Sneeze and it will do 10.
We can't wait to finish the lease on our townhouse and move aboard. Foster starts engineering school in a few weeks. We'll give him a year or so to settle in. Probably shake down in Alaska next summer and turn left the summer after. We'll come back when it's not fun any more. Maybe when we are 60. Maybe when we are 80.
Steve,
Sounds very cool. Getting ready for the big offshore plunge!
I sailed on Mahina again last August with my youngest son this time...1700 miles Azores to Scotland across the Atlantic. Couple of very cool photos during a 50 knot gale mid-Atlantic. Let me know when you need a marginal crewmember:)
Tom
Tom,
Very interesting. John Neal of Mahina featured the Manta 40 as one of his ten bluewater choices during the boat selection portion of a seminar we went to. At dinner I explained to him that we had planned to look at a Manta 40 the next day, but his pictures of upside down cats did nothing to convince Tracey that buying a boat that is equally stable upright or inverted was a good idea. She was diehard mono. John just looked at Tracey and said, "You'll never flip a Manta". Once we saw the boat the choice was obvious.
Steve