Hi everyone,
I'm working on trying to loosen and remove the sink drain from the port bowl of the double bowl sink. I can't seem to get the collar to turn from below. Access is really tight and hard to get a wrench on it. Is the collar supposed to turn from below? Any tricks to getting it loose? Do I need to remove the short section that goes to the tee to rotate the elbow? Looking for ideas before I break something. The drain leaks where it meets the bowl. Thanks.
Mike.....
search: galley+sink+drain
Go to Home Depot and get a couple of bar-sink drains. Then just bust out those cheap plastic ones that Catalina put in there in 1987. That's what I did. While you're at it re-plumb the whole drain system so it drains faster. There are a couple of threads on it here.
Thanks Ted, that sounds like a good idea. I'll check that out.
Mike...
I busted mine this spring on my MKII trying to get it off. I had the same question, what is the right way? It seems like it is caulked in there. I've been having troubles getting the right parts to replace it from Home Depot. Sure, the bar sink strainers are there and look much more useful, but how to go from 2" threaded to 1" barbed with a right angle in there? I've got a pile of 4 fittings per side that I need to glue together to make the transition and bend, and I'm hoping it doesn't hang down 6 inches or more when I'm all done. That's my pot & pan storage area.
The post he is referring to is here:
http://www.c34.org/projects/kindred-spirit/sink_drain.html (http://www.c34.org/projects/kindred-spirit/sink_drain.html)
and this one:
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php?topic=6310.0 (http://c34.org/bbs/index.php?topic=6310.0)
Here is the original part, at least for my boat:
http://www.boatparts.net/plumbing-accessories/galley-pump/faucet-combo-systems/forespar-907017-1-id-sink-waste-90-deg-sw-4/ (http://www.boatparts.net/plumbing-accessories/galley-pump/faucet-combo-systems/forespar-907017-1-id-sink-waste-90-deg-sw-4/)
The more I look at it, the more I think the white 90 degree bend and the black ring need to spin together, i.e. undo the hose barb connection first. Good luck.
You need to get a wrench on the nut below then stick something in the drain so it doesn't spin when you are turning the nut. When you install a new drain, use plumbers putty. Waterproof and non-hardening.
I left mine installed but replaced all the plumbing with 1 1/2" pvc drain fittings I found at Home Depot. I kept one of the plastic funnel fittings the old 3/4" hose tied on to. Ran 1 1/2" pvc to about 8" above the seacock. Then re-installed the 3/4" funnel fitting and tied the new 3/4" drain hose from it to the seacock. I couldn't find a 1 1/2" to barbed fitting.
Took a couple of trips to HD to get the right pvc drain fittings but I was able to figure it out eventually.
Here is what you really want:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/2-in-Bar-Sink-Strainer-in-Polished-Stainless-I5586-SS/203499165#.UcIYHNiwXZM
Just my $.02...
Mike : Follow Capt. Al's directions, except that you don't need the dishwasher vent. Get rid of that cheap drain junk that Catalina installed!!
The easiest way to tighten the new drains in place is to put a long nose pliers in from the sink side. While you turn the nut underneath someone holds the pliers from turning.
A few thoughts
You guys are amazing! I went out and bought the parts for the re-do, using the PVC 1-1/2" piping, and new sink drain fittings. Thanks for the unbelievable support!
Mike.....
There's another Galley Sink and Microwave topic on this issue, in addition to the wiki. We just opened up below our galley sink and found this plumbing from the galley sink. These are straight sink drain Forespar OEM fittings, going to 3/4" hose. I note that the source in the link below has the same fittings with 90 elbows to 1 inch hose.
I also note this topic:
Galley Sink Drain replacement and Microwave
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6310.0.html
Reply #13 provides a low profile and seemingly easy-to-install alternative.
I'm looking into it.
I'm also wondering if I can get the Forespar 90 degree 1" elbows and attach them to the existing drains without removing them.
We do have a microwave, which has been removed in this picture, so there's some room above it.
Hey Paul, further to Stu's link, I've now had those drains for around 3 years I think; still loving 'em. Made lots of extra room for the microwave.
The image below is just to show how I veered from the norm of joining the drains right away, directly underneath, and simply ran a bit of extra hose back behind the microwave into a "T" (looked for a "y" but couldn't find one) then to the thru-hull.
Steve
PS: the image was taken just before cutting out the drawer and installing the microwave as well as replacing all the hoses on my boat.
Quote from: Stu Jackson on August 17, 2013, 05:41:58 PM
I'm also wondering if I can get the Forespar 90 degree 1" elbows and attach them to the existing drains without removing them.
Forespar does make a 90 degree 1" fitting. I just bought two of them and will attempt to leave the existing drains in place and "move up" to a one inch drain.
Stu,
Those drain fittings look great. I did finally finish mine with the 1-1/2" pvc drain plumbing and bar sink SS sink drain fittings. It works great, but it was a lot more work than I expected. I think the 1" drain fittings you are using would have been a much easier approach. Good luck.
Mike.....
Best laid plans: In trying to reuse the old sink drains with the new bottoms, turns out I need to remove the old ones, 'cuz one of the drains broke inside the sink. I'm on the boat now and am having on heck of a time getting the old black collar off the through threads. :shock: Demolition comes next!!! :D
Mike : You are going to enjoy your new drains even though there was added work.
You'll find that when the sink is draining it will makes the sucking noise :thumb: - because it drains so fast :clap!!
Stu,
I had to break everything apart on mine. Nothing would budge. Even after I cut the parts out, I still couldn't separate them. Get out the dynamite!
Ron,
You're right they really drain fast.
Mike......
Quote from: Mike McDonald on August 23, 2013, 05:53:00 PM
Stu,
I had to break everything apart on mine. Nothing would budge. Even after I cut the parts out, I still couldn't separate them. Get out the dynamite!
Holy Cow, Batman. I broke out the wallet for a Dremel tool. Hope it's the dynamite you suggest. :cry4`
Thanks for the encouragement. I had to go home to avoid having to buy a complete new sink! :D Might have been easier... 8)
There is, BTW, a post here on this board about how to find a new sink. If I need it, I'll post a bloody link! :shock: :shock: :shock:
Reading the Dremel manual as I type...:D
Mike, was it C4 you eventually used? Or just plain July 4th stuff??? :D
Boy, Dremel is the way to go. Only took an hour each.
Brain fade question: What is the material used to seat the new sink drains into the circular opening in the sink?
Brief update: I bought the Forespar 1" 90 degree elbow fittings but couldn't get them to work - couldn't figure out how to get them tight with the double threads on the fittings underneath. Bought the Ambassador fittings, waiting for delivery scheduled for tomorrow.
Hi Stu,
If you're seating stainless into the stainless sink, use plumber's putty. Knead the putty into a thick pencil like rod and place around he strainer's threads, and squeeze it down into the sink opening. Then thread on and tighten the nut under the sink. More putty will ooze out. When you're nice and tight just wipe off the excess putty.
I actually had to replace the whole drain setup just a few weeks ago as well. Here is what I did: http://blog.koehlmann.ca/marine-maintenance/replace-sinks-drains-in-galley/ (http://blog.koehlmann.ca/marine-maintenance/replace-sinks-drains-in-galley/).
Hope it's of some use.
Fred.
Stu : Fred is correct, use plumbers putty. It's inexpensive, easy to use and I've never known it to fail over time.
Have never tried it, but I'll bet that butyl rubber will also work. A few thoughts
Thanks, gentlemen.
Nice writeup in your link, Frederick.
The Ambassador sink drains arrived today. :clap
They include, could this be true?!?, instructions. As a guy, I actually read them! :shock:
They include this: "...use either the included foam gasket which is supplied for your convenience. However, we recommend using plumber's putty (not included) instead of the foam gasket. Do not use both the foam gasket and plumber's putty."
Pretty clear to me. While I love butyl tape, I'll break the bank for the plumber's putty as Ron and Frederick (great writeup on his blog) suggest.
The instructions even include PICTURES, so I should be able to mess it up quite well. :cry4` :abd:
Appears to be a nice product, and the screw that goes into the plastic has a bronze insert, so the screw doesn't go into just plastic. Sweet.
Stu, I can't believe you didn't have a Dremel before this ! Get back to the store & get all the goodies that go with your Dremel. The flex shaft is a must & you will want to keep it on your second Dremel tool...More tools !!! You will ask how did you get along without a Dremel for so long.
I became a huge fan of Fein MultiMaster Oscillating Multi-Tool (or cheaper varieties - Bosch, Rockwell etc) for odd jobs like that. It takes a zero clearance to cut and can be very use full when fighting things like 3M 5200 and 4200 (in scraper mode)
Cheers,
Simon
Quote from: Phil Spicer on September 11, 2013, 06:04:24 AM
Stu, I can't believe you didn't have a Dremel before this ! Get back to the store & get all the goodies that go with your Dremel. The flex shaft is a must & you will want to keep it on your second Dremel tool...More tools !!! You will ask how did you get along without a Dremel for so long.
Phil, I had one, years ago. It broke. I learned to live without it for 14 years. Only use I had for it on the boat was when I installed my speakers in the cockpit. It is kinda nifty.
The new sink drains didn't fit, because the holes in the sink were slightly smaller! I enlarged them with the Dremel and a grinding cone on our power drill. Some correspondence with Steve:
DONE! :thumb:
I used the T arrangement because I had tried it when I first removed the microwave with the plastic Forespar fittings and saw that the water from the thru hull didn't come up beyond the waterline.
I also used the plumber's putty instead of butyl tape. The plumber's putty was easier to use and much less sticky. For the $5 I paid for the plumber's putty, it was worth it.
I had to get "creative" to get the screw from above into the plastic-with-the-brass threaded portion of the "underneath" unit because I was working alone. I got close to calling for assistance, but then decided against it. Let
s get challenged! I figured that maybe I'd have to tape the pre-assembled "T" bottom fittings to the underside of the sink.
But I found I had "just enough" reach to handle a screwdriver from the top while lining up the screw to one of the bottom fittings. Just... I did the left (amidships) sink first, but I had to do it left handed with the screwdriver! I was only able to do this because of the opening in the fiberglass for the microwave.
I connected the drain hose I'd installed a few weeks ago to the "T". Then I ran the water from the galley sink for the first time in about a month. No drips. Nice.
I replaced the microwave wooden housing, and slid the microwave back in, connected the electrical outlet, and taped it over.
Then, I sat back and smiled. Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
Thanks so much for your identification of this possible alternate to the PVC and bar sink galley drain arrangement.
LINK to my Tech Notes: http://c34.org/galley-sink-drain-upgrade/ (http://c34.org/galley-sink-drain-upgrade/)
search: galley+sink+drain
Stu : It's hard to believe that you could live for all these years with those "Mickey Mouse" drain fittings that Catalina used!!
I'm sure that Cory will be much happier!! :thumb:
I had a hard time loosening the old drains. Then the familiar "CRACK" sound I'm so used to hearing when I do plumbing sounded informing me that I'd be taking them out in pieces. The second sink allowed me to unscrew the ring about two turns past leak before jamming so tight I couldn't hold it with anything from the top stuck down in it. Out came the trusty Dremmel with a cutting disk on it. I did however opt for buying my replacements from a local RV outlet. When I told them I needed to get to a barbed fitting for the hose, they immediately questioned if I was working on a boat.
My PO relocated the macerator (no need for it on the Great Lakes) to handle the slow drain issue. I call it my garbage disposal. I wonder why I always get strange looks from boaters around me when I turn it on to drain my sink?
Steve
visit us at www.ocontoyachtclub.com (http://www.ocontoyachtclub.com) and www.warbirdsix.com (http://www.warbirdsix.com)
Not sure deactivating an old thread is appropriate, but I am now going through the infamous galley sink drain retrofit exercise and have some questions and observations. I opted to go with the Ambassador Marine Sink drains (as discussed and used by others on the forum) as an alternative to the Home Depot bar sink drain strainer and PVC. As Stu indicated, and I neglected to comprehend, the drain assembly is TOO LARGE to fit the holes in my sink. Before going crazy with my Dremel tool, I purchased the standard Home Depot bar sink drains. These fit nicely. Now I have two options. Dremel and ruin the sink for future "standard hardware"
Or...or no Dremel and use the bar sink drains. Meanwhile, thinking, or over thinking the problem, it occurred to me that the real slow drain is because my 1990 boat has a 3/4 inch thruhull. Am I wrong in assuming the no matter hot fat the drain pipes/hoses are upstream, the ultimate cause of the slow sink drainage is eventually they have to be reduced to exit the 3/4 thruhull? Yes? I am considering replacing my existing 3/4 thruhull with a 1-inch one at my next haul out. Opinions please.
That's why when I went with the bar sink drains, I used 1-1/2" ABS plumbing and included a clean out (for the just in case I get a plug situation).
http://blog.koehlmann.ca/marine-maintenance/replace-sinks-drains-in-galley/ (http://blog.koehlmann.ca/marine-maintenance/replace-sinks-drains-in-galley/)
I have discovered that the sink does drain faster, but I'm sure that this is just because the pipe has more volume that it can hold before it can go through the thru-hull.
Noah
I think the big improvement in how the drain runs is because I made a straight run down to the thru hull. The way it was previously plumbed had a big loop in it much like an s-trap. Not sure why it was there as there are no sewer gases to be had. It is faster but not like at home. For me it would not be worth the hassle to put in a larger thru hull. I don't fill my sink more than a couple of inches and if it takes a couple of extra seconds to drain we let it happen. Gravity is an amazing force.
Noah, personally I think reactivating an old thread and expanding on the exact same topic is the way to go. It makes searching later (for other skippers with the same issue) that much easier; good one:).
If I recall I had to take off very little material to fit the new drains so I wouldn't worry about that too much; I understand your concern though.
My flow increased a little bit when upgrading just the hose, no thru-hull, but with my new set-up the biggest gain I had was making room for my microwave. I think it's prudent to always add room when able, even if you're not going to use it right away.
Another benny was that the one sink didn't back up into the other anymore because when I plumbed mine I put the 90 deg connector further down. Worked perfectly, got the flow happening right away and gave me even more space for the microwave; only takes about a foot more of hose.
Excuse the old 1/2" line there, it's all been redone...
Good luck whatever you decide.
Steve
Noah, I don't think it's the thru hull, it's the piping to it. There are a few conclusions I can draw from the differences between my experiences and those of Fred, Steve, and Al Watson.
1. The sink drains just fine with the existing thru hull. If you're in a hurry, insert sailboat joke here. :D Or do the macerator trick. :shock: It's just NOT worth the expense to change the thru hull. I don't think Al did either. Dave & Fred are right.
2. Steve's T fitting lower down would avoid some minor backup we get with ours. This doesn't happen when there is a little water or just the faucet running. It occurs when we empty a full pot of water. So, we just put the plug in the other side. The reason is his T is much lower than ours, good idea from Steve's experience.
3. We had that foot pump for 15 years. Anything that drains without that foot pump has been a blessing for us! :clap
4. If you do this now, you'll never have to do it again, regardless of what drain you use, even if you're Methuselah. :D Don't worry about future generations, really...
5. Double clamp your hoses so they don't fall off, and use the time down under there by replacing all your plumbing hoses while you're at it.
Bar sink or Ambassador? Your boat, your choice. :D
Question: my 3/4 thruhull is Marelon. I am running into a bit of a brain bend trying to find an "acceptable" 1-inch hose barb fitting that attaches to the thruhull. the P.O. used PVC 90 degree elbow to hose. PVC is technically a no-no at the thruhull. I can't find a Marelon 3/4 thread to 1-inch barb fitting. Bronze fittings have tapered threads not straight like Marelon so not a good match. Best I could find is nylon. Better than PVC, but still not marine surveyor-approved. Ideas?
Also, Does anyone have Bronze thruhulls on their boat?
Quote from: Noah on August 11, 2014, 10:17:35 AM
Question: my 3/4 thruhull is Marelon. I am running into a bit of a brain bend trying to find an "acceptable" 1-inch hose barb fitting that attaches to the thruhull. the P.O. used PVC 90 degree elbow to hose. PVC is technically a no-no at the thruhull. I can't find a Marelon 3/4 thread to 1-inch barb fitting. Bronze fittings have tapered threads not straight like Marelon so not a good match. Best I could find is nylon. Better than PVC, but still not marine surveyor-approved. Ideas?
Also, Does anyone have Bronze thruhulls on their boat?
Noah,
I had the same situation on the 30. I ended up going with PVC off the drain basket (somehow - it was 15 yrs ago!) and then to 3/4" hose, since the hull is 3/4 anyway. Maybe that would work on the 34? I thought there was 3/4" barbed drain available also?
[attachimg=#]
Cheers,
Ken
Ken & Noah : FYI, the sink drain thru hulls (both Galley & Head) in my 1988 C34 will accommodate a 1" hose.
A thought
Not mine. The thru-hull(s) for galley sink, head drain and engine intake, are all Marelon 3/4-in. They don't make a Marelon 3/4 in. male thread to 1 in. hose barb, that I can find. I found one in Nylon and in bronze, only. Forespar's website says one can screw bronze tapered-thread fittings into parallel-thread Marlelon valves, using "thread compound and being careful not to cross thread" -- which risks wrecking my existing thru-hull. That is why I wondered about up-sizing to 1in. bronze or 1in. Marlelon thru-hull at next hull out.
Quote from: Noah on August 11, 2014, 04:10:42 PM
Not mine. The thru-hull(s) for galley sink, head drain and engine intake, are all Marelon 3/4-in. They don't make a Marelon 3/4 in. male thread to 1 in. hose barb, that I can find. I found one in Nylon and in bronze, only. Forespar's website says one can screw bronze tapered-thread fittings into parallel-thread Marlelon valves, using "thread compound and being careful not to cross thread" -- which risks wrecking my existing thru-hull. That is why I wondered about up-sizing to 1in. bronze or 1in. Marlelon thru-hull at next hull out.
Noah, if you are just a little careful you won't cross thread the female valve threads.
The difference in the threads is that parallel threads do not tighten and seal by "interference" (they use a sealing gasket or O-ring.) So it's a little more difficult to seal the "valley" of thread spiral (which is present no matter whether it's parallel or tapered thread -- only "dry seal" NPT threads have an interference fit on the thread "peak" and "valley", so don't they need pipe dope or teflon to seal the cavity created -- which is why "dry-seal" thread is typically used on engine gauge senders.)
Anyway that said -- I have a glass-reinforced-polypropylene (eg, generic "Forespar Marleon") 3/4" tapered MNTP x 1" straight hose barb that you are welcome to try threading into the valve -- the plastic won't cut the female thread on the valve and cross thread like sharp bronze thread would. Just PM me your address and I can drop it in the mail it to you tomorrow.
Ken
Noah, I would strongly discourage the use of "metal" thru hulls on our boats. Why mix & match? Somehow it seems unnecessary simply because of a connector. Perhaps I am missing something, but the previous writeups have all explained how the connectors are made. I must admit, not being near our boat to be able to check since I'm now up in Canada visiting my father-in-law, that I simply used the existing hose connection to my thru hull. Good luck.
I'd have to agree with Stu. Keep the existing thru-hull, especially if its working just fine (i.e. not leaking). I also just connected to the existing hose. I did cut it down for my new drains but I made sure that my connection was still above the static water line.(See the black marker line between the loop hose for the shower and fridge pump-out line) The double clamps connect the hose to about an inch or two above that line.
On a slightly different note, none of our thru-hulls (on Dolphina) are metal. My understanding is that if we had metal fittings, we would also need to ground them or something. I'm not remembering the term right now (maybe "bonding").
Quote from: fkoehlmann on August 14, 2014, 02:28:08 PM
On a slightly different note, none of our thru-hulls (on Dolphina) are metal. My understanding is that if we had metal fittings, we would also need to ground them or something. I'm not remembering the term right now (maybe "bonding").
Yes, Fred, that's what it's called. Here's the "classic" discussion about this from Stan Honey. Who is also the guy who brought us not only the yellow line markers in football games on TV, but the tremendous TV coverage of the Americas Cup.
http://www.westmarine.com/WestAdvisor/Marine-Grounding-Systems (http://www.westmarine.com/WestAdvisor/Marine-Grounding-Systems)
Noah, "Don't mess with success?" :D Marelon is just fine. All my thru hulls work just fine, only had to replace the big head valve many years ago. Also suggest folks read the Critical Upgrades, there's one there for the newer Marelon valve construction details.
Fred
How did you get the drawer to fit after you installation with schedule 40 pipe? I tried to do it that way but ran out of head room for the drawer.
@Footloose,
I did have to cut out the corner a bit more, but that was more because I made the hose go down more directly into the back corner. The shelf goes in and out on a diagonal. I raise the port side and then out she comes. :D
@Footloose,
Sorry, I just realized that you mentioned "Drawer" and not "Shelf". Silly me. :?
Dolphina is a 2002 MkII and we only have doors in front of the sink. the drawers are at the starboard side of the galley. The white wall beside the drain clean-out is the cabinet box for the drawers.
Cheers, Fred.
My boat is a Mk I, so no room for big black pipe above drawer (I believe?) As far as just using EXISTING fitting on my thru-hull... The PO had remove whatever "proper or original fitting" was there and installed a Gray PVC elbow contraption to a non-barbed 1in. PVC pipe that had 1in. hose, single clamped on. None of that is acceptable (to me) to have on my boat, especially below the waterline--hence the search for the elusive 3/4 pipe to 1in. hose barb in Marlelon. Ken (thanks!) sent me a suitable generic one that should work and I will install it this weekend. I am still trying to decide whether to use the Ambassador drains, which will be easier--plumbing-wise, except for having to grind away the holes in my sink with a Dremel to make them fit. Or, use the bar sink drains, which fit, but will require some PVC work and reducers to connect the 1in. hose. I kind of like the bar sink drain idea, as the bigger PVC pipe will hold more water so should drain the sink faster?? Decisions, decisions...
Noah,
As I stated in my post they would not fit in my boat. It was close, but the drawer would not go in all the way. I don't know if the position of the drawer is constant from boat to boat, but the water heater is below it so it can't be much lower. I considered trying to trim the fittings to make it work but ended up with the bar drain. Yes, I also have many fittings to get down to the thru hull.
Speaking of the water heater... The hoses that come off the back of the heater are making things very tight to access/connect any drain hose to the thru-hull. Add to that, a poorly placed pedestal/shelf for my fresh water pressure pump, foot pump for ice box and Y-valve "manifold" for water tanks (P.O. Installed) --makes it a laying on my back, knuckle busting pain festival.... I know "we've all been there and quit complaining..." :cry4` :shock: 8)