To add to Bob Kuba's excellent WIKI article on keel bolts, you can now buy a 1 1/8" 6 point extra deep socket - 1/2" drive to tighten keel bolts. Cost is about $21 before shipping. It is the Grey Pneumatic 2036XD which is about 4.25 inches deep. A lot cheaper than the Snap-on socket mentioned in the WIKI article. Tried it for fit today, and it will do the job nicely when I haul out this April. Will also be replacing two of the 1 3/4 washers that back up the nuts on the keel bolts since they look corroded. Bill
Bob's wiki is under Maintenance, here: http://c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Keel_Bolts_-_Inspecting_Tightening (http://c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Keel_Bolts_-_Inspecting_Tightening)
Link added in wiki to this source. Stu 2/20/13
A 4.25'' deep socket would not have been enough for my keel bolts. You may want to save yourself some time pulling those washers... it's not likely they're corroded, even if they were submerged at all times. Unless they are not Stainless Steel. Since my boat had water coming up through the keel bolt holes entering at the "smile" zone, I found that there are Carbon Steel lifting points cast into the lead of the keel, ideally for construction and handling. I had rust streaks at the cracks at the front of the keel and no one could explain why. This is detailed in my post "rebedding the keel" from last year. (sorry too lazy to dig the link out ;-) Other than that, with my keel bolts and washers always wet, I had no.. zero.. stainless corrosion, but I had rusty residue in the bilge now and then.
I'm sure it makes a difference but we are in fresh water in Lake Ontario.
[Here's the link- Stu: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6842.0.html (http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6842.0.html)]
4 1/4 wouldn't have been deep enough for my studs. I bought a regular deep socket. Cut it in half (taking care to keep the cut square) used an angle grinder with a cut-off wheel. Cut a short length of 1" steel pipe (about 1 1/2 long). Assembled and held it all in square with a bolt (or may be threaded rod), fender washers, nuts. Passed through the square drive. Then a friend welded. Since it was all well located, the welding was simple. Looks a bit crude. Works well. Also put cut a piece of thin (1/16) flexible plastic rolled it up and put it into the pipe section for thread protection. My custom make socket is 5 1/4 long, just right for my keel studs. If you do this get a 6 point socket and see that the hex is deep, some are not.
That's what I did. If I could have bought one for $21 would have.
BTW was surprised at the amount I took up when I retorqued the studs. Haven't checked them for the last 2 springs. Time for me to check them this spring. Ahh spring!
Jim
There are many grades of stainless steel, and depending on what grade is used may result in rust.
I had rusty washers on my '99 when I bought it in Dec 2005 and replaced them with series 316, non magnetic in April 2006. No more rust.
Steve
The Grey Pneumatic socket fit perfectly on our keel bolts, all of which were 4 to 4 1/8 inch. The Sears deep socket would have been too short. Thanks for the excellent tip.
Hello All:
I measured my bolts and they are all of 4½" from the washer to the top.
Why hasn't anyone talked about simply using a crow's foot to torque?
I think that would be significantly less money and problem than extending a socket.
The equation for converting the figures is quite simple
Steve
visit us at www.ocontoyachtclub.com (http://www.ocontoyachtclub.com) and www.warbirdsix.com (http://www.warbirdsix.com)
This explains it
Clay
Our hull numbers aren't very far apart. My keel bolts measured a solid 4½" from the bottom of the nut to the top of the threads. I find that difference quite a lot. I wonder if my keel boss was shorted some material??
Steve
100+ foot/lbs. is a lot for a crows foot. My bet is you just round off your keel bolt nuts.
For postage and 12 bucks I'll be happy to send you my keel socket and I'll make a new one.
I bought a 12$ Napa deep well socket, cut it in half, welded a piece of 1'' 11ga tube between, takes ten minutes.
( I have the unfair advantage of owning a laser tube cutting shop, so this is very easy for me)
You also need a 10'' extension for your torque wrench to get above the floor.
If anybody else reading here wants one like this just let me know I'm happy to pay something back to this forum for all the value I've received being a member here.
Guys : I agree with Dan that a crow foot just might round the nuts with that much torque.
My Snap On 5" socket has an inside depth of 4 1/4+". Fleet 12 has used it to tighten all years of the MK I & II with no problem. Surprisingly we have gotten up to 1/2 turn on many a keel nut!!
Dan
Thank you very much for the offer. I sent you an email, so if it doesn't get to you please let me know her. I sent it to your profile email addy.
As it is apparent, I'm far from a qualified engineer.
Sincerely
Steve
visit us at www.ocontoyachtclub.com (http://www.ocontoyachtclub.com) and www.warbirdsix.com (http://www.warbirdsix.com)
Ha! I'm no engineer either... once I thought I should have gone into engineering... but I'm much happier being able to actually do stuff.
Thought I would report on tightening keel bolts on my boat CLEO (2002) while on the hard the last two weeks. Most bolts were tight at 106 ft-lbs, three moved about 1/8 to 1/4 turn. The aft-most (centerline) keel bolt was inaccessable to my torque wrench, as was the keel bolt next to the sink counter. Replaced one corroded washer, and bedded under the washer with polysulfide caulk to keep out a possible slow seep from the outside. Basically the bolts seemed to be in good shape.
Bill
Bill : When I made my keel nut tightening tool I included a 1/2" universal that attaches to the socket - to get at those few "hard to get at nuts"
a thought
My socket is 5" tall and I use a 10'' extension, I can reach the last keel nut through the door in front of the hot water heater. It's at just a slight angle but makes no difference. You might have to put the socket on first then go through the door with the extension.
Thanks for the thoughts. I think however, the Mark II's most aft keel bolt is located actually under the cabin sole with no way to reach it except perhaps with a universal, as mentioned by Ken. But the angle to the torque wrench will be extreme. I will look at it again tomorrow (and take a pic) when down at the boat.
Bill
If I remember correctly, I used a universal designed for impact wrenches on the most aft keel bolt. Happy to say that all of the keel bolts were tight this spring. First time I took up quite a bit, then got a little from some at each check. Something I don't understand. Now that I have everything it's a quick check so I'll just check it every spring.
Jim
True also of the Mark I boats - the aft keel bolt is under the cabin sole and hard to reach.
Grey Pneumatic 2036XD socket works for me also. Before I tighten the nuts, I need to replace one of them per my surveyor's recommendation. What is the spec on the nut? 3/4"-10? Or finer thread pitch? Also, what grade of SS is recommended? If you have a recommended source that would be great also.
While I have the forward-most nut off, I'd like to clean out the rust stains from that front part of the keel sump. What works well for this? CLR? RydLyve? FSR? Oxalic acid?
I have read that rust stains COULD be due to oxygen starvation around the keel bolt washer, due to gel coat partially sealing--and the remedy is to chip away sny gel coat "suffocating" the washer then clean it off with a SS wire brush or CLR--and it will cease to rust. Urban myth?? Anybody?
My bolt shows a very interesting rust pattern. It's not rusted at all where the bottom of the bolt meets the washer. It is rusted on exposed flat surfaces. So it does not appear to be crevice corrosion. And the other keel bolts are not rusted at all.
I have some thoughts on possible cause, but too little time to write them now.
First tings first, I need the spec on the nut for proper replacement. I've searched all over here and on the wiki and can't find any specs. Am I the first person who decided to replace a keel nut?
Quote from: Breakin Away on December 02, 2016, 08:22:28 AM
First tings first, I need the spec on the nut for proper replacement. I've searched all over here and on the wiki and can't find any specs. Am I the first person who decided to replace a keel nut?
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,8027.msg55778.html#msg55778
I did a search on keel+bolt, fifth hit down. Not so hard. What search phrase did you use?
Stu, Yeah but that search doesn't provide a clue to answering the question about the nuts....
Breakin'....
The C-30 has UNC 3/4" -10 nuts, not UNF (fine.) I'd venture a W.A.G. yours are the same <wink>
Most good hardware stores have 3/4" UNC s/s nuts, but I don't know if you'll get 316 grade or if they even know what grade they are.
My go-to source when looking for info on fasteners and oddballs, McMaster-Carr, has 316 and also 316 extra-wide nuts, which are also extra high -- the benefit being more thread engaged and the load spread wider (not that I'm saying you need to do that, but I would use them if I was replacing nuts - why not go better when you can?) The downside is you need another (1-1/4" socket.)
https://www.mcmaster.com/#hex-nuts/=2rsigq8llyiw8btt4x
-ken
Quote from: Stu Jackson on December 02, 2016, 09:26:22 AM
Quote from: Breakin Away on December 02, 2016, 08:22:28 AM
First tings first, I need the spec on the nut for proper replacement. I've searched all over here and on the wiki and can't find any specs. Am I the first person who decided to replace a keel nut?
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,8027.msg55778.html#msg55778
I did a search on keel+bolt, fifth hit down. Not so hard. What search phrase did you use?
Update: I have had no luck finding the required keel nuts at local brick-and-mortar stores. The closest thing I found was at a True Value store near my workplace, but it was 304 stainless, and I think an alloy mismatch between keel bolt and nut is asking for trouble.
I will probably end up going to McMaster-Carr via mail order. It's a shame to place such a small order, but that's all I need right now. I'm stalling on ordering because I know that the next day I'll think of some other $1 item that I need. :?
On a related topic, I fumbled one of my battery nuts into who-knows-where when disconnecting my battery cables for the winter. My local hardware store, which is unfortunately rather poorly run, told me "we had them, but someone bought the whole box about a month ago" (...and why haven't you ordered them back in???). 3/8"x16 SS was too exotic for my nearby Home Depot store, which stocks nothing larger than 5/16" in SS. Another Home Depot store further away had them in little plastic packets, but they were so cheap (thin) that they had about 2 threads tapped into them, and I could easily imagine rounding off the corners, since on a battery you usually need to angle the wrench upward to avoid short-circuiting between the posts. I finally found a Lowes that had a bin full of 3/8"x16 SS with thickness and quality that was equal to the original battery nuts. I bought three in anticipation of my next fumble.
I really regret the loss of local mom and pop hardware stores, but the ones that are left seem like they're too shell-shocked and cash-strapped to even try to compete (won't even replace depleted stock). I am becoming disgusted with the way Home Depot is cutting back on their variety of low-profit items (like fasteners, where their display gets smaller and smaller each year), now that they've managed to kill off the mom and pop shops that used to carry these ordinary items.
I'd need to comment that both the Ace hardware a few blocks from my home as well as the one a few blocks from my Marina carry a large selection of SS fasteners, not necessarily 316 for your keel bolts. We also have locations of Tacoma Screw that can be helpful.
Craig
Guys : Look at "Fastenal.com" for all of your odd ball stainless/bronze nuts/bolts.
A thought
I had checked there too, and used them to buy 100 SS piano hinge screws a few years ago. They have the nuts, a little more expensive but not significantly so.
Fastenal has the advantage of more locations nearby (no shipping charge if I can pick up), but the closest location that has the nuts is 2+ hours away. Maybe I should call a nearby one and see if they can order it in for me to pick up. It's silly to pay a big shipping charge for one nut.
Breaking : I've had them order for me and they called when the items were in at their store.
A thought
Sometimes I'm just too dense. The Fastenal store that's 2 hours away is the only one with
one single nut. I hadn't noticed that the website lists a pack of 3, and
everyone has them in stock.
(http://www.clker.com/cliparts/4/0/8/f/1310565736166702798doh-md.png)
I only need one, but more than happy to carry a couple spares.
OK, I now have three new nuts, as well as lock washers and flat washers. Although the front-most nut is clearly the worst, there are a couple of others that are starting to show erosion in spots, and the lock washers underneath also look bad. So I'll use all three.
My question is on what else to do. Is there any reason to try to make things water-tight, perhaps with butyl tape bedding? My bilge is 100% dry on the hard, and mostly dry afloat, except for the occasional air conditioner drainage in the front compartment, and packing gland water in the aft compartment. Is there some benefit to preventing water from getting into the crevices between bolts, nuts, and washers? Currently there appears to be no bedding present.
By the way, I'm curious why the front-most nut corroded worse than the others. It is exposed to ion-free condensate water, and I wonder if the limited solubility of metal ions caused a gradual erosion in the nut and washers. It's ironic that deionized water could be more corrosive than water with a small amount of ions, but I have stainless steel cooling baths in my lab with manufacturers' warnings not to fill them up with deionized water for this very reason.
I made a comment/observation earlier in this thread about possible oxygen starvation and rusty keel bolt washers. I looked back and guess what? I picked up that tidbit from John Langford on this forum. Still no other confirmation. But worth consideration anyway:
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,8325.msg58638.html#msg58638
I did not realize that Catalina finished the bilge with gelcoat. I thought it was just paint over top the fiberglass layup. I also did not realize that they would do this after the washers and nuts were tightened onto the keel bolts. I sort of thought that they would finish all fiberglass work in the keel sump first, then bolt on the keel.
I don't really see any signs of gelcoat on top of my washers.
The washer for my front-most keel bolt has some brown rust on it, but the washer can't be removed because of interference from the drain scupper that sticks out over it. I tried some CLR on it, but the best I could do was to go in with a toilet brush, and the CLR did not take much off. I can barely squeeze my hand down there (but getting it out is real rough on my skin), so I might be able to get some sandpaper on it. I could also lift the washer up partway to dry underneath it and possibly apply some bedding compound.
So to return to my question, is there any perceived benefit to drying the area around the bolts and under the washers, then applying some bedding (perhaps MainSail's butyl) to keep water out of the crevices? Any reason why this would be a bad idea?
Have you tried FSR from Davis?
The only place you find this topic of "oxy starvation" corrosion of SS is in sailing forums... I'm very skeptical of this old wives tale concerning rusting of SS since oxidation can only occur in the presence of Oxygen. Opposite of this I have cheap low quality stainless cutlery that rusts in the dishwasher. If you look elsewhere (not in a sailing forum) for this topic you'll find this at the McNally Institute:
"The basic {corrosion} resistance of stainless steel occurs because of its ability to form a protective coating on the metal surface. This coating is a "passive" film which resists further "oxidation" or rusting. The formation of this film is instantaneous in an oxidizing atmosphere such as air, water, or other fluids THAT CONTAIN OXYGEN. Once the layer has formed, we say that the metal has become "passivated" and the oxidation or "rusting" rate will slow down to less than 0.002" per year (0,05 mm. per year).
Unlike aluminum or silver this passive film is invisible in stainless steel. It's created when oxygen combines with the chrome in the stainless to form chrome oxide which is more commonly called "ceramic". This protective oxide or ceramic coating is common to most corrosion resistant materials.
Halogen salts, especially chlorides easily penetrate this passive film and will allow corrosive attack to occur. The halogens are easy to recognize because they end in the letters "ine". Listed in order of their activity they are:
fluorine
chlorine
bromine
iodine
astatine (very unstable.)
These are the same chemicals that will penetrate Teflon and cause trouble with Teflon coated or encapsulated o-rings and/ or similar coated materials. Chlorides are one of the most common elements in nature and if that isn't bad enough, they're also soluble, active ions; the basis for good electrolytes, the best conditions for corrosion or chemical attack."
There is more on the subject debunking O2 starvation corrosion here: http://www.estainlesssteel.com/corrosion.shtml
It would appear that the two things very common in boats are chlorine and salt which make far more sense than O2 starvation.
Why aren't all the properly bedded keels falling off left and right if lack of O2 at the keel bolts is eating them away? I'm certain there could be a situation where one of the aforementioned chemicals permanently appears in an o2 free environment where the stainless can't repair itself.
I hope everyone finds this interesting.
To return to my question, is there any perceived benefit to drying the area around the bolts and under the washers, then applying some bedding (perhaps MainSail's butyl) to keep water and chloride ions out of the crevices? It might also provide enough lubrication to avoid scraping away the passivation layer. Both, taken together, might inhibit crevice corrosion. Any reason why this would be a bad idea?
Dan,
There's discussion of different forms of stainless corrosion and O2 starvation than just on sailing forums. I'm not a metallurgical engineer, but it was my understanding that crevice corrosion (O2 starvation) was due to free oxygen not being available to form and/or repair the protective layer, and so then the presence of H20 (containing dissolved O2) results in corrosion. ie, dissolved O2 (or combined H2O) cannot form or repair the protective layer. This looks like a pretty good description (with excellent pics "describing" the reactions) from UA (apologies to those War Eagle fans.)
http://bama.ua.edu/~mweaver/courses/MTE271/22_MTE%20271_Corrosion.pdf
I think keels don'r fall off because 1) you're talking a huge mass of the bolt compared to maybe a small crack on a standing rigging swage that attacks its holding integrity. Plus, if the bilge is dry, there's no dissolved O2 to get down to the thread. When I dropped dropped my keel (due to water infiltration down the thread/attacking the keel bedding) was there surface rust on the bolts? Yes. Was it enough to cause any sleep loss? Not a minute.
-kk
Quote from: Breakin Away on December 31, 2016, 09:56:01 AM
To return to my question, is there any perceived benefit to drying the area around the bolts and under the washers, then applying some bedding (perhaps MainSail's butyl) to keep water and chloride ions out of the crevices? It might also provide enough lubrication to avoid scraping away the passivation layer. Both, taken together, might inhibit crevice corrosion. Any reason why this would be a bad idea?
pics?
Is it serious corrosion (integrity of the fastener) or just some surface rust (cosmetic)?
Unless it's dramatic, I'd be more concerned about unseen crevice corrosion in a standing rigging swage or on a clevis (every one one of which is critical), than surface rust on one washer on a (over-designed set of) keel bolts.
Yah nevah know the grade and more importantly the quality of OEM fasteners used, which may be the cause of or contributing to the corrosion.
-kk
If there was no "O" in "H2O" would it still be wet? :lol:
Happy New Year!
Quote from: DaveBMusik on December 31, 2016, 09:29:15 PM
If there was no "O" in "H2O" would it still be wet? :lol:
Happy New Year!
ABSOLUTELY!! But unfortunately you won't hear the tree in the forest fall..
HNY all y'all.
Ya'll know there are two steel lifting points cast into the lead on the top of the keel?
Are ya'll sure this rusty residue isn't from these? Leaking the rusty red crap up through your keel bolt holes?
That's what I had. I had rusty water running out of the smile on the hard and water coming up through the bolt holes every year until I re-bedded the keel.