Catalina 34

General Activities => Main Message Board => Topic started by: Mike Hall on November 28, 2012, 07:28:18 PM

Title: C34 mark 2 chain plates leaking - Chainplate flix
Post by: Mike Hall on November 28, 2012, 07:28:18 PM
I am currently looking at buying a C34 MK.2 , Hull no. 1330 , "Sereno" located at Auckland New Zealand. I have read some postings on problems that can occur with the chain plates. I have inspected the chain plate fixings inside and they all look well sealed, with no evidence of leaking. On the deck some silicone has been used on several  chain plate fixtures. The  questions I have are : is the deck area where the fittings go through composite ? i.e plywood sandwich & grp or solid grp like the newer models ?.
Also is this problem wide spread on all C34,s ? . I look forward to some owner feedback, regards Mike Hall.
Title: Re: C34 mark 2 chain plates leaking ?.
Post by: cmainprize on November 29, 2012, 05:07:42 AM
The area around the chainplates is cored.  A half decent survey should tell you if the area is suffering from any water intrusion.  My personal project this winter is too remove all fittings and seal the deck core wtih the standard drill oversize, fill and re drill method.  My rough count was almost 250 holes to do.
Title: Re: C34 mark 2 chain plates leaking ?.
Post by: Stu Jackson on November 29, 2012, 09:41:02 AM
It appears that my PO sealed the deck openings.  This is my forward lower, port side opening.  I just rebedded this one last week with butyl tape.

If your core is dry, you needn't drill it out and epoxy it, just epoxy over the plywood with a couple of layers.

The "crap" you see on the inside of the deck was from my improper bedding last time --- I sealed inside, too.  BIG mistake.  Don't do it.  Just seal the outside.  If it leaks down below, you NEED to know it.

I'm simply the "test bed dummie" for these kinda things.  FWIW, the very good chainplate rebedding article in the wiki is also wrong - sealant is shown inside, too.  NOT!
Title: Re: C34 mark 2 chain plates leaking ?.
Post by: mregan on November 29, 2012, 10:07:53 AM
I just did last week what Stu suggested.  Removed the plates, oversized the bolts holes and filled with epoxy then drilled out correct size.  In the rectangular slots, used small brush to brush on epoxy to seal the core.  Then used butyl tape only on the exterior.
Title: Re: C34 mark 2 chain plates leaking ?.
Post by: Mark Sutherland on November 29, 2012, 01:58:55 PM
mregan, what type/brand of epoxy did you use?  Thanks
Title: Re: C34 mark 2 chain plates leaking ?.
Post by: mregan on November 29, 2012, 05:33:39 PM
I used the West System 2 part.  I'm usually not doing too much epoxying so I'll buy these 4oz bottles below and mix a little at a time for whatever I need.

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=14974&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&storeId=11151&storeNum=50218&subdeptNum=50219&classNum=50220#.ULgLkIXXqHA

You may also want to look at the Six10.  Comes in a caulk gun tube.  Might be easier to fill the bolt holes.  I find when using the 2 part above, can sometimes get messy trying to get it into the plastic syringes to squirt in the holes.  After you fill the holes with the Six10, you could probably squirt a clump into a small cup and use a brush to coat the insides of the rectangular holes.

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=14969&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&storeId=11151&storeNum=50218&subdeptNum=50219&classNum=50225#.ULgMDIXXqHA
Title: Re: C34 mark 2 chain plates leaking ?.
Post by: Clay Greene on December 03, 2012, 02:57:44 PM
The west 610 works great.  I've used it to fill holes when replacing a cabintop winch and when used the same tube a year later when we replaced the starboard line clutch.  I just had to buy a new mixing attachment. 

I think the question about the chainplates is not if they are going to leak but when.  The top plate does not keep the water out.  You are dependent on whatever sealant is used and sealants, particularly silicone, are going to fail.  I rebedded with butyl tape and hope it is going to do a better job.  But you should consider it to be part of your maintenance plan.  The good news is that it is not a hard or particularly time-consuming job. 
Title: Re: C34 mark 2 chain plates leaking ?.
Post by: Stu Jackson on December 03, 2012, 05:14:19 PM
claygr is right.

Here are pictures of the butyl tape "at work."

Held through a tremendous amount of rain the past few days.

When you do them, you should remove the plate below and assure that there is no intrusion, per the earlier picture I posted "looking up" through the hole.

There are simply two avenues for the water to enter:  the long side of the through bolt, and the short side.   :clap

I stuffed the sides with the butyl tape and then slathered the cover plate with tape before I screwed it back in (as well as doing a "Maine Sail" on the bolt head).

I've read many posts on other boating forums about how folks use 5200 for this.  That is simply: Dumber Than dirt.  Chainplates SHOULD move a bit and let the deck flex WITHOUT CREATING LEAKS.  Why?  Look at the design of the chainplate SYSTEM.  The shrouds attach to the chainplates which, in turn down below, are connected to the rods that go even further below to the boat structure.  If the deck can't flex because some a$$hole used 5200 to GLUE the deck to the chainplate, there is more risk for failure at the point where they meet.


[chainplate butyl] [chainplate flix]
Title: Re: C34 mark 2 chain plates leaking ?.
Post by: Stu Jackson on December 03, 2012, 05:16:32 PM
I also removed the long tie rod down below and replaced all the lock washers, which had evidence of water, 'cuz they were rusted!  :D

You can see the water stains, which I cleaned up after I took this picture.
Title: Re: C34 mark 2 chain plates leaking - Chainplates flix
Post by: 2ndwish on December 28, 2012, 08:35:14 AM
We are in the process of rebedding the chainplates. Most of the thru-bolts on the deck came loose, but two of them are stubbornly stuck. We snapped a 3/8" screwdriver (US made) trying to loosen one. Hit it with blaster last weekend and will try again today. Any suggestions? We may have to cut them off.

Side note- since the bolts had been leaking and turned, we made a temporary seal over and around the screw  heads and washers from butyl tape. It was dry the next day after a heavy overnight rain. Not ABYC, but works in a pinch.
Title: Re: C34 mark 2 chain plates leaking - Chainplates flix
Post by: Stu Jackson on December 28, 2012, 12:20:55 PM
We are in the process of rebedding the chainplates. Most of the thru-bolts on the deck came loose, but two of them are stubbornly stuck. We snapped a 3/8" screwdriver (US made) trying to loosen one. Hit it with blaster last weekend and will try again today. Any suggestions? We may have to cut them off.

Not sure I understand.  The through bolts are screws that go into the acorn nuts down below.  Could you not get the acorn nuts off from down below?
Title: Re: C34 mark 2 chain plates leaking - Chainplates flix
Post by: 2ndwish on December 28, 2012, 12:27:32 PM
Correct. The acorn nuts are quite stuck to the deck bolts
Title: Re: C34 mark 2 chain plates leaking - Chainplates flix
Post by: Clay Greene on December 28, 2012, 03:30:30 PM
Did you try heat on the acorn nuts?
Title: Re: C34 mark 2 chain plates leaking - Chainplates flix
Post by: Craig Illman on December 28, 2012, 04:43:06 PM
An electric impact wrench might give you enough shock torque to loosen the nuts. That's what I used on a couple of mine.

Craig
Title: Re: C34 mark 2 chain plates leaking - Chainplates flix
Post by: 2ndwish on December 28, 2012, 08:45:28 PM
We were concerned about using the torch so close to the interior laminate. Don't have an electric impact wrench- maybe next year.. Ended up using an angle grinder and a cutoff wheel, cutting straight up the nut. About 80% of the way through, the nut came loose. Same held true for both stuck nuts. Likely the heat from the cutting that loosened it. Bedded the chainplate using Butyl tape in much the manner pictured above.

After replacing the top plate, there was much squeeze out. I cut way the excess on the outer part of the plate, but left the excess where the chainplate  penetrates the top plate. I tried to form it into a fillet. Is that how others handle that joint? 
Title: Re: C34 mark 2 chain plates leaking - Chainplates flix
Post by: Stu Jackson on December 28, 2012, 10:04:38 PM
...but left the excess where the chainplate  penetrates the top plate. I tried to form it into a fillet. Is that how others handle that joint? 

Maine Sail's now-famous butyl tape topic discusses how to do it: 

http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=117172 (http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=117172)
Title: Re: C34 mark 2 chain plates leaking - Chainplates flix
Post by: Craig Illman on December 29, 2012, 09:11:30 AM
Electric impact wrench, also works on those stubborn bolts holding the pulley to the rudder post. Good enough for occasional use, like rotating your tires.

http://www.harborfreight.com/12-electric-impact-wrench-68099.html

You'll need some impact sockets too.

Craig
Title: Re: C34 mark 2 chain plates leaking - Chainplates flix
Post by: 2ndwish on December 29, 2012, 09:24:17 AM
I pored over that tutorial before jumping in and it did not quite explain the issue. I wish I had photographed the process... In "normal" bedding, with one piece of hardware and screws  (eg a cleat), the butyl is placed between say the hardware and the deck, wrapped around the screw heads. It squeezes out as the screws are tightened. This squeeze out can be easily trimmed after tightening.

The case of the chainplate is different. It is much more like Mainesail's example of the NFM metals port light installation. The butyl has to be forced into the crack around the chainplate and built up in that area (as seen in Stu's photos). It is also put on the base of the top plate (in Mainesail's NFM tutorial he actually used sealant on the trim ring equivalent) also as Stu showed. When the top plate is screwed to the deck, butyl squeezes out in three places (I'm ignoring the deck through bolts in this example)- the screw heads, the perimeter of the top plate and between the top plate and chain plate. It is easy to remove the excess around the first two, but between the top plate and the chainplate you can't simply trim away the excess butyl because it is part of the seal. Furthermore, that butyl will be exposed to sunlight. In the NFM tutorial, Mainesail does not explain how to finish that part of it. In fact it kind of appears that he leaves it alone. I'm tempted to trim that portion back and hit that joint with polysulfide over the butyl to finish it. This would protect the butyl from sunlight and provide a seal over that joint which is not under any pressure from fasteners.


ps Thanks Craig- Will dig up one of those 20% off coupons

edit 12/30: Just noticed in this link
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6202.0.html
where cmainprize finished the top plate much the way I did, and is not concerned about sunlight exposure
 
Title: Re: C34 mark 2 chain plates leaking - Chainplates flix
Post by: WTunnessen on January 07, 2013, 07:41:55 PM
With regards to sunlight and the butyl tape - the stuff is very tough and holds up well to UV degradation. I've left a small ball outside on a dock piling for the past 1.5 years just see what would happen and can report that its still rubbery.

What's perhaps more of problem aesthetically, is that some dust and grim can stick to it.  But frankly I have found that this simply helps it blend in. I don't think you really need to do anything more to it.