Hi all,
I'm back for more advice. I have removed the Teak boards that run fore and aft on the cabin top along the hatch cover, in order to eliminate some cabin top leaks traced to that area. This has raised a number of issues/concerns. I have posted some photos below for reference.
1.) With the teak removed, would I be wise to remove the large fiberglass panel that the hatch cover slides into, and re-bed that as well? Looks like it will come off by removing the screws along each side. Not sure if there are any leaks there, but I would hate to put the teak back down and still have leaks. Is is more complicated than that?
2.) You can see from the photos that there are a number of small cracks that run outward from the screw holes under the teak rails. Should they be sealed somehow? Are they normal and harmless? I plan to countersink the holes before putting the the teak back down.
3.) I plan to use Butyl Tape to re-bed the teak. Should I only put the tape around the screws? Should I put butyl tape along the length of the teak along the upper edge of the board against the hatch cover upper panel, to prevent water from getting under the teak, or is that unnecessary? How about on the bottom of the teak rail beyond the screw hole area? The same question applies to the teak blocks that the line clutches mount to. They were originally mounted with silicone calk YUK!!!!! I hope I don't find any more silicone calk on the boat, but I suspect I will.
4.) Suggestions on Teak finishing would be nice, but I'll probably start another thread for that.
As always, I really appreciate the suggestions from the experienced members of the forum.
Mike.....
I'd oversize the holes a bit then fill with epoxy. Then re-drill and counter sink the top of the hole a bit. Put some butyl tape in the top and then put the teak down & screw. The butyl should form a seal around the screw. If for some reason it isn't a tight seal and water gets in, the drilled hole is surrounded by the epoxy so no leaks into the deck.
As far as refinishing. I just used Cetol Natural with the Gloss finish. Came out really well. Yearly maintenance is easy. Just clean and add a coat the next year.
Mike, great work. This is the first time I believe we've ever seen pictures of this effort. If you're using Maine Sail's butyl tape, I suggest you head him to this topic (via pm?) and ask him to comment.
Thanks so much for the details of "what is underneath" that teak. This
issue" has been one often questioned. If you'd like, I can post a link to this in the Tech wiki (unless Ken Juul beats me to it! :D).
mregan - thanks for your ideas. I'll definitely oversize the holes, fill with epoxy, and countersink.
Stu - I sent a pm to mainesail as you suggested. Feel free to post the link to the Tech Wiki.
Anyone have any thoughts on my questions #1 and #2? Thanks.
Mike.....
added link back to this topic to the C34 Tech wiki - Leaks / Rebedding http://c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Leaks (http://c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Leaks)
Quote from: Mike McDonald on October 09, 2012, 03:58:09 PM
1.) With the teak removed, would I be wise to remove the large fiberglass panel that the hatch cover slides into, and re-bed that as well? Looks like it will come off by removing the screws along each side. Not sure if there are any leaks there, but I would hate to put the teak back down and still have leaks. Is is more complicated than that?
2.) You can see from the photos that there are a number of small cracks that run outward from the screw holes under the teak rails. Should they be sealed somehow? Are they normal and harmless? I plan to countersink the holes before putting the the teak back down.
Mike,
1. I'd remove it while you're there, and bed and seal the holes with butyl tape.
2. Small cracks - You could either slather the butyl over those cracks or use Captain Tolley's Creeping Crack Cure on the cracks. Great stuff. Available at West Marine or the internet, a small plastic jar with a tiny built-in spout, like a small thing of 3:1 oil, does a great job.
The thing you're facing is simple: while you're in there, overkill it instead of having to come back to it.
Just make sure you don't block the drainage (which goes forward). Take a look at the forward outboard end of the big teak strips.
Is there a reason to only put the buytl tape only around the drilled hole vs the entire teak piece of wood? It seems that if the buytl was only around the drilled holes, water could get below the teak whereas if the buytl was under the entire piece of teak, then no water could get under the wood. However, the teak may not be able to seat as close to the deck with buytl under the entire piece and would be subsequently slightly higher than it was originally. When I re-bed my deck handrails this fall, I was going to put the buytl under the entire base of each connection point. Should I only put it around the screw/bolt hole on each connection point?
Thanks again Stu. Makes sense. I'll let you know how it goes. Hope I don't run into more silicone calk in there. I spent hours getting it off the surface after removing the line clutch blocks. Can't seem to find any solvent that will dissolve it. Acetone softens a little, but not much.
Mike.....
I tried a bunch of products to remove silicone from our chainplates and "Goof Off" seemed to work the best without causing any damage to the gelcoat on the deck. I am not aware of anything that will dissolve silicone. I would suggest sanding the fiberglass where you think the butyl tape will come into contact because the silicone will leave a residue even when no longer visible. How something could adhere so strongly and provide such little permanent waterproofing is a mystery.
Quote from: Les Luzar on October 10, 2012, 09:37:11 AM
Is there a reason to only put the buytl tape only around the drilled hole vs the entire teak piece of wood? It seems that if the buytl was only around the drilled holes, water could get below the teak whereas if the buytl was under the entire piece of teak, then no water could get under the wood. However, the teak may not be able to seat as close to the deck with buytl under the entire piece and would be subsequently slightly higher than it was originally. When I re-bed my deck handrails this fall, I was going to put the buytl under the entire base of each connection point. Should I only put it around the screw/bolt hole on each connection point?
In reply, here is Maine Sail's excellent discussion about how and why about butyl tape:
http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=117172 (http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=117172)
Stu,
Thanks. I have read that article in the past based on the C-34 posts, and printed it as well and refer to it as my butyl tape bible. I have subsequently used it to rebed my stern air vents and the short hand rails under my dodger. What I learned with my small handrails is that it it really good to compress the butyl as much as possible before I reattach the handrails because it was difficult to tighten the handrails all the way to the deck if the butyl was at its thickest. As you tighten it it oozes out but starting off with a thinner application seems to get the handrail closer to the deck and more stable, the way it is supposed to be. Just a comment on my experience.
Les
I'd only put a thin layer of butyl under base of the handrails. When I removed and re-installed the rails on my C-30, I had that same issue. Too much butyl and I couldn't get the screws to sink deep enough into the rail to get a good hold on it.
As far as butyl under the whole teak piece on the side of the hatch, I would only put it around the screw holes. Whatever you are using to finish the teak, I'd put it on the bottom of the teak also to protect it.
Mike : I did the job you are doing about 5 or 6 years ago. That was back in the olden days - BBR (Before Butyl Rubber)
I stopped where you are now and did not remove the top cover where the hatch slides into. I didn't have the cracks migrating from the screw holes quit as far as yours. I guessed that the cracks are the gelcoat and not the fiberglass resin. That thickness of fiberglass is hard to crack. I put some silicone caulk in the holes and screwed the finished teak back in place.
I'd probably just stuff the holes with butyl rubber and remount the screws as that b-rubber does NOT slather!!
A few thoughts
Thanks everyone. Lot's of great insight. I really appreciate the support of the forum members!!
Mike.....
Mike
How hard was it to get the teak off. I just did the same job on my C-30. Once I dug the bungs out, quite a few of the screw heads were epoxied or sealed in. It was a real hassle to get some of the screws out.
MRegan,
It wasn't very hard to get the teak off once the bungs were removed. The screws came out pretty easy and the teak just lifted off. The hard part was removing the line clutches and the teak blocks under them. They were sealed down completely with silicone calk. I had a hard time breaking the seal. I had to sharpen putty knives and hammer them in under the blocks from every direction. It took hours for each block. Then removing the silicone was another hassle. I hope I never find any more silicone on the boat. (not likely) I'm hoping to remove the sliding hatch cover tomorrow if the weather holds out. I'll let you know how that goes.
Thanks.
Mike.....
Guys : Not too sure about Mike's boat, but on my 1988 getting the bungs out was not that simple!!
First you need to use a 3/8" Forster (sp?) bit to drill out most of the bung. Then Catalina did a nice trick of putting some silicone caulk in the hole before they hammered in the teak bung. This means that you will have to take a small common screw driver tip an get out all of the old bung edges before you can back out the screw. This just makes it more difficult, but not impossible.
I haven't figured out how to reinstall the flat teak pieces (yet!) so they are easily removable, but I know how to do the hand holds and make them easily removable and easily re-installable.
A few thoughts
Hi everyone,
I finally was able to get back to this project. I tried to post with some photos, but the file was too big. I'll try again. I'll put some photos on this reply and then add another if necessary. The photos show the before and after results of removing the "hood?" (fiberglass cover that the sliding hatch cover slides under). And then after I re-installed it. It was pretty dirty under there as you can see. It came off pretty easily. The forward curved part was sealed with silicone calk (I used butyl tape when I re-installed it). As I suspected there were a few holes in the deck under the hood. The PO mounted a radar monitor to the cabin ceiling above the galley sink, and drilled too deep for the mounting bracket screws. I have since removed the monitor. After cleaning everything up, I used acetone to do a final cleaning around the holes and sealed them with epoxy. I was crunched for time, so I couldn't take the time to re-drill and epoxy the screw hoes for the hood mounting. I did counter sink the holes in the deck before putting butyl tape in each hole. I also wrapped butyle tape under each screw head. I had to raise the hood with wood blocks in order to align the hood with the holes and put the butyl tape in place. Once the screws were started in the hood holes, I lowered the hood into place and screwed down. I also put some silicone spray lubricant (using a cloth to wipe it on) on the deck where the hatch cover slides. I also put some lube on the under side of the hatch cover. It now slides smoothly, and without the gritty feel. It didn't seem to leave a residue. Hopefully it will last for awhile. I suspect that the primary source of leaks came from the mounting holes for the teak rails that I removed. I probably won't be able to finish and re-install the teak until spring. I plan to use Maine sails techniques for handling that part of the job. Overdrill the screw holes, rout out the core material, counter sink the holes, fill with thickened epoxy, etc. I'll need some good weather for that. I'm going to try again to add the photos to this and probably one or two more reply's. Hope this helps others in the future.
Mike......
Some more photos.
3rd set of photos.
Last 2 photos - sorry about the multiple posts.
Mike....
Guys : Here's what I found when I took off my teak:
I used a 3/8" forester bit to drill out the bung. What the factory also did was to use some clear silicone caulk in the hole to hold the bung in place while they cut it off and sanded it flush.
You'll have to take a "pen knife" to clean that caulk out of the hole.
A thought
I just pulled all the teak off my '86. I used a utility knife to remove the bungs. Just kept digging little pieces out of it. I tried using a small drill bit but found it would round out the phillips head screw if it went down too far. The utility knife worked pretty well. On some screws, there seemed to be wood glue holding the bungs in. On these, the screws kept stripping. What I ended up doing was inserting a small screw driver around the screw head. Hit it with a hammer a few times to push back the any teak/glue around the screw head. Once the screw head was clear, it unscrewed pretty easily. Only had to do this on 5-6 of the screws. The rest just came out when I dug the bungs out. I think I had all the teak removed in 1.5 hours.
I recently did this same project. I filled the teak rail holes with eboxy and overdrilled them so any leaks would not drip by the core. I then replaced the bungs and built up a butyl "moat" around my redrilled holes. I then used lag screws and screwed up from the inside into the rails. I didn't want to have to remove the bunds each time. I can just unscrew it from the inside and lift it off. I did this about a year ago and have had not issues. The Butly is only around the holes. The theory is to allow moisture to escape from under the teak. I recently removed one because I need to repair it. I damage it while rebedding the traverler. Dropped the drill on the corner. The underside look to be in very good shape and was not moldy. I think letting it get some air was better then daming it up.
Bob : Your idea of the lag bolts from the underside is great!! Re-insert the bungs with a touch of epoxy, cutoff excess, sand flush and then sand/refinish that teak at home. Then do as Bob mentioned to reinstall on the boat.
Teak is 100 times easier to refinish at home and the final product is at least 10 times better than doing it on the boat!!
My thoughts
Using UHMW Slick Tape to help reduce the cabin top squeak. Before I put the sliding hatch back down I added a strip of UHMW Ultra High Molecular Weight Polyethylene tape. Woodworks use it to reduce the wood to wood friction of drawers. The fiberglass flange of the sliding top no slides across a very thin UHMW tape stuck to cabin top. There are a couple of posts that also discuss this tape option. Over the past year it has really reduced the squeak.
Mike,
Thanks for your multiple pictures. Have you considered sending them to John Nixon, our C34IA Tech Editor or publication in Mainsheet magazine? I'm sure other one-designs, like the C30 and C36 guys, would also appreciate that great information. Well done.
Here's a picture of how the drain shows up in the front.
Mike, Thanks for the great posts and pictures!! :thumb: Did you replace the teak strips along the sides of the hatch? Love to see a picture of the final product.
Scotty
Hi Scotty,
Sorry it's taken me a while to get back. I've been out of touch for awhile. I did not replace the teak strips, I just took them home and refinished them with Cetol. I'll try to get a picture of the final results when I get the boat opened up in the Spring.
I wish I had thought of Bob's idea and screwed the teak down from the bottom. It would have been much easier that dealing with the bungs after refinishing, and also a lot easier to remove in the future if necessary. Great idea Bob!
Mike......
Added to the 101 Topics as:
Sliding Hatch Teak Removal 101