Having Mary Gee for about two weeks now, I was all set to practice my docking and go out for a sail this afternoon, but my engine wouldn't start. I had a great sail this past Sunday, coming across from the Atlantic Highlands, New Jersey back over to my Marina in Brooklyn. The ocean was still rolling out some nice 7 foot rollers and the boat felt great. I started the engine with no problem just before coming into port.
Today though it appears to me along with my two buddies, that she was starving for fuel. I always did a pretty good job bleeding my one lunger on my cape dory 27, but the M25XP universal was a bit more complicated.
I read thru lots of notes and previous postings for the last two hours or so, but the one thing I am lacking is a good drawing or sketch of the M25XP, I have a basic manually, the illustrations are not very detailed.
Where exactly is the air bleed plug on the fuel filter.
I believe I have a self bleed return valve, which I opened to check for a fuel stream, however i always closed it before i attempted to start.
We loosened up the hose going to the injector, And yes one of my buddies did loosen one of the injectors... Both fuel filters were recently replaced and I added twenty gallons of diesel.
If your diesel tank has never been cleaned, it doesn't take too many rolling waves to clog up a brand new filter. Try changing out the filters again and see if this solves the problem. If so, looks like it's time to drain and clean fuel tank. I know because I had this problem when I first bought my boat. What sizes are each of your filters.
Not to offend, but because you are a new owner, I'll start with the basics. The engine must have worked fine during the delivery, they don't usually stop working without a reason. So I'll assume you don't know the proper procedures to start the engine? Thru hull open, oil level checked. OK, time to start the engine. Key on, buzzer sounding. Hold key clockwise against the spring to power the glow plugs (Unless engine has been recently run and temp is over 100). Hold key for 20-30 seconds (10-15 if you have a glow plug selenoid). Release spring pressure, push the start button. Engine should start right up. Check for water out of exhaust.
Also be aware of the note, more than 30 seconds of cranking without starting will cause the muffler to fill with water. Continued cranking may cause the water to back up into the engine causing water lock or other damage. If you have been cranking the engine alot, make sure you drain the muffler.
Also make sure your helpful friends have everything put back together correctly :)
Along with Ken's line of thought. Double check the engine shut-off. Does the cables work right?
Jim
Quote from: Ken Juul on July 25, 2012, 05:20:08 AM
Key on, buzzer sounding. Hold key clockwise against the spring to power the glow plugs (Unless engine has been recently run and temp is over 100). Hold key for 20-30 seconds (10-15 if you have a glow plug selenoid). Release spring pressure, push the start button. Engine should start right up. Check for water out of exhaust.
Hi,
quick question, since I'm new to diesel engine since this summer, when starting, I'm holding key for about 20 sec. and push the starter button while still holding the key.
Should I release key before ??
And how to check if there is a solenoid ?
thanks
Hi Ron. The good news is that it's probably somthing easy. If all the above dosen't work it might be a strainer in the fuel tank (which is suggested to be removed). There are several links dealing with bleeding the system here on the website. Good luck!
Also check the wiring for loose grounds, especially the engine panel wiring in the cockpit.
How recently were the fuel filters changed? If it was immediately before you have had this problem, I would think it is a air bubble in the fuel line. The bleed valve is on the starboard side of the engine but farther toward the bow than the fuel filter. It is about six inches above the oil dipstick and maybe four inches forward. Open the bleed valve and have someone turn the ignition key to energize the fuel pump and pressurize the system without starting the engine.
Here is a link to an online version of the M25XP engine manual, which has diagrams:
http://www.marinedieseldirect.com/universal/200157/universal-owners-manual-m25xp-specifications.html
Look at the top image on the right hand side for the bleed valve.
You don't have to keep the ignition switch turned while you start the engine. The manual suggests that you can do this in cold weather if you are having trouble getting the engine to start. 30 seconds is usually the minimum I can energize the glow plug to get the engine to turn over, usually in warm weather. I often will need to give it another 15 seconds or so and/or will need to increase the throttle a bit.
Good luck!
If you add the solenoid modification to the glow plug circuit you will cut down the time to 8-10 seconds befroe the engine will start. :clap
Good idea - it is on the list.
RonE : You do NOT have a self bleed system with the bleed valve closed. I recommend that you crack the bleed valve OPEN about 1/4 turn and then you have a self bleed system.
There was no need to loosen an injector! You didn't mention if you were getting fuel with the key ON and the fuel line partially off the injection pump or at the injector?
Suggestion -- You are going to have to start at the tank and work thru each item the fuel should go through to make sure that fuel is really (finally) getting to the injector. A few thoughts
Ron, don't know if you've had a chance to wander around this website, but there's tons of engine information on the C34 Tech wiki (just click on the link at the top of each of these pages), including links to the manuals, in addition to the www.marinedieseldirect.com link (which you should bookmark).
Your issues seem to be either the bad ground syndrome or a loose fuse/fuseholder from the key switch to the starter solenoid (cleverly located under the alternator!).
I know there's tons of info on this website, hence that particular topic sticky on this board.
If you haven't yet, please read or re-read the CRITICAL UPGRADES topic, which has items that will answer your question. You may also be interested in the "101 Topics" sticky, too.
Good luck, and it is interesting to note for you that we have ALL been there and are here to help.
Please keep us posted.
RonE, is the engine turning over at a normal speed when you are trying to start it or is it sluggush? If sluggish, it could be the ground issue at the engine block. Also make sure your throtle is advanced a little when trying to start.
Mike
Thanks for all the responses.
I have taken her out about 6 times,
The engine started with no problem, each time,
Since Tuesday I have not been able to start, I have repla. (ced
The secondary filter, and bleed the system properly a number of
Times. I and a number of sailors say she is starving for fuel. It
Appears to have a good flow up to the hose that feeds into the injector.
When the engine ran before Tuesday it sounded fine.
If there was a grounding issue wouldn't I get no juice at all.
Ron
Is your engine cranking with force when you try to start? If you had a grounding issue, It may crank sometimes, and not crank other times. Or it may crank slowly. Grounding issues could cause intermittant starting problems.
The engine cranks every time just dosnt attempt to get fuel.
Talking to others and reading your responses, I am going to look into
An electric issue, like the gnd, or maybe some other loose wire.
Like I said, she was running beautiful until Tuesday.
Hi,
One thing, not that I 'm an expert, but as per one mentioned, with all the starting attempt you did.
Did you opened the purge on the muffler, to let the water out. If not, the water might went into the cylinders by now, and it will not start anymore.
Would it be possible that the glowplugs don't get power, without pre-heat, engine will turn, but won't start.
RonE : With a diesel - If your engine cranks it is NOT an electrical problem!! It is a fuel problem!!
Like I said in my previous post, start at the tank and check at each place the fuel should come out of the i.e.the electric fuel pump, then the Racor filter, then the hose to the injection pump, then to an injector, then to the fuel return line. Somewhere your engine is not getting fuel and it should start if the engine cranks.
While you and your buddies were cranking the engine remember to not load up the muffler with raw water. Just turn off the raw water thru hull until you can get the engine started running again and then open the thru hull so you get the cooling water.
same thing happend to me, one day engine wouldn't start, it boiled down to faulty glow plugs, if you energize the glow plugs too long they can burn out. I replaced the glow plugs and haven't had any issues since. I bought them from carquest for around $6.00 each, way cheaper than Universal or Kubuto wanted.
I know you are not supposed to use starting fluid, and wouldn't recommend it, but I talked to our local mechanic, he suggested in a emergancy, fogging the engine with starting fluid, that is, spray it up in the air way over the top of the engine, some people place some on a rag,and hold it against the air filter, if engine starts and runs, there is a good chance it is a glow plug issue. Glow plugs can also be tested on the boat, can't remember what the resistance is but I do believe it is in these archieves. Any way just me two cents
I rather deal with a fuel issue...if that's what it is.
And yes the muffler was full of water, I let it drain for a while.
Is there anything I need to do ??
I will go point to point again to check the fuel flow...
I will let know
One thing I have not seen mentioned is to make sure your fuel lift pump is working. You should hear it clicking once you turn the key switch to on.
Are you absolutely, positively, no[question - that the fuel shut off is in the proper position ? I had an issue, sounds similar, caused by the cut off plunger on the panel not being firmly seated in the OPEN (down) position. How about the cable end on the engine? I have had the throttle come loose down there. Perhaps the connection to shut off on engine has lost it's nut.
Ron E,
In reading thru the thread all are good things to check. To try and summerize in check list format what I would look for when she cranks but does not start . I would also do one task at a time so when she finally starts you will know the culprit.
1. Engine Kill switch lever- Is it all the way down? Is the cable working and putting the kill lever switch back in the start posion at the engine? Have seen or experienced both.
2. Check for Air. Open bleed screw knob at engine turn on key to turn on fuel pump. Listen for the clicking of fuel if you have the old facet fuel pump. Let fuel pump run for a couple minutes. Then close Bleed knob clicking should be reduced to a click every couple of seconds or less. If clicking is not reduced is a sign of air in systems. If suspect air in system check all fuel hose connections. Look for cracks in all hose and check your primary and secondary filters for proper seating of gaskets. If air is not an issue then most likely it is fuel related or glow plugs.
3. If Fuel is the suspect. Do you have fuel in tank? Is fuel turned on at the tank? Would not trust guage 100%. Be sure electric fuel lift pump is working however if tank is above the electric pump a working pump is not needed . Disconnect fuel hose at the engine . Turn fuel pump on see if you get a good flow. If getting good flow I would suspect
either glow plug or injectors and would investigate. If not a good flow check to be sure there is fuel in tank . Then change all three filters. Engine filter, Water seperator filter usally a Racor or Dahl brand and the often forgotten filter in the electric fuel pump .
Good luck
RonE : You've gotten a number of items to check.
If you see the Volt meter drop a couple of volts when you engage the glow plugs, they are probably working. If you have any kind of compression the engine will eventually start even if the glow plugs are not heating(in 70-80F WX).
Check the fuel cut off at the engine and make sure it hasn't slipped in to the OFF postion.
You've just moved the boat quite a distance and if you were in some rough WX, a dirty tank could have mixed up some of the sludge and clogged the fuel flow. A thought
Fuel going into injection pump bleed.
Nothing coming out the return ...
So does that mean the fuel is clogged in the
Injector pump or the injectors.
RonE : You have to have the bleed valve open or partially open (to have a "self bleeding " system) to see fuel coming out of the fuel return line from the injecters (injectors)!
Wow...big difference,
Flowing out fine thru the return line now.
Question...
Do you start the engine with the injection pump bleeder valve open.
When do you close the bleeder value on the injector
Bleeding 101 http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6377.0.html
Ken's got an M25XP
Ok bleed system thru, left open the inj. Pump
Bleeder value and attempted to start.
Same issue cranks but not enough to start her.
Got a 'local' diesel coming tomorrow morning..
Why would a glo plug go bad, how does one replace
It.
Glow plug replacement topic: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,3347.0.html
RonE : You can run the engine with the bleed valve full open (makes the electric lift pump work like hell), but I'd close it all the way and then open it about a 1/4 turn.
From what you just posted, it sounds as though everything is open and you have fuel to the injection pump. Now you need to crank the engine over (shut the thru hull) and as the engine is cranking see if fuel is coming out of a loosened injector fuel input tube on the top of the injector. No fuel means there is a problem with the injection pump.
Clogged injectors - possible, but all 3 clogged improbable.
I have you telephone # and I'll call you tomorrow.
Thanks Ron,
I will be down by the boat by 930..
Ron
I have a dockmate with a new to him C36. He too was having starting problems. After a couple hours of tightening clamps, checking for air leaks, blocked pick up tube, etc we still could not get fuel to flow. Turned out the electric fuel pump was bad. It was clicking as fast as it could but not pumping any fuel. His fuel system arrangement has everything below the engine...without the electric pump, the engine won't get fuel.
Mary Gee is back....
It was a frustrating week not being able to sail, but it was a week that I learned a great deal about
my universal M25XP.
Thanks for all those suggestions, and thanks for the phone conversations from one of Catalina's experts, Ron Hill.
After waiting for a diesel mechanic all week, I and my fellow dock buddies focused on a fuel or air pocket issue.
I did remove the fuel injector pump, when about 5 of us thought the fuel flow was minimal.
The mechanic as East Coast Diesel Services in Lynbrook drilled me saying that 90% of the time people come in with kiki injector pumps the problem was something else, usually an air lock.
Sure enough by the end of the day Derrick said the pump was fine, No Charge and some advice, not bad..
Crank repeatively until you get fuel to the injectors, he said...
I reattached everything I removed the day before, starting with the Injection pump, side panel, glo plug, manifold, injector bleeder valve, and all the connecting hoses and tubes.
As Derrick suggested I cranked in ten second intervals until I had a good fuel flow just before the injectors.
I know a lot of folks ain't going to want to hear this last part, but the diesel mechanic I was waiting for the last few days, called and suggested shooting some starter fluid into (towards) the air intake. None of us wanted to do it but he said that once you had the engine running it would clear out the air locks.
My buddy sprayed indirectly some two feet away has I cranked and she turned over. What a sound, half hour later we had a nice sail and motor back to the dock..
Ron
Glad to hear your back up and running!!! Thanks for sharing starter fluid tip!
enjoy!! :clap
A warning about using starting fluid (either) . Once you use it keep working till the motor is running. The starting fluid will wash off the cylinder wall and may cause other problems. I would use only as a last resort.
I've never used it, but somewhere in the back of my mind I remember WD40 being recomended to start and run diesels for short times. Has anyone used it?
Great that your engine is running. Hate to say it butt, I would have less than 100% confidence. You may have a small leak that allows air into the system when the engine isn't running. If thats the case you may have to use the starting fluid till you find the leak.
Jim
Quote from: RonE58 on July 26, 2012, 09:53:02 AM
I have replaced The secondary filter, and bleed the system properly a number of
Times.
Ron, glad to hear you got started, although I agree with Jim and others that that way may not address the root causes of your issue.
I went back and read this thread and there's lots of good information, including the texts and the references. You might want to consider that part of your issue might have been replacing the secondary filter, unless you were sure that you got all the air out by removing or at least backing off the nut on the top of the filter housing.
If it was my boat, I'd find out what the cause was before ever using starting fluid again.
Good luck, glad you're back and thanks for the update.
Ron : I'm glad that you got the engine running and had the injection pump checked and found it OK.
I hope you also changed out your leaking bleed valve. With that knerled knob open fuel should not come out thru the knob shaft!! That leaky bleed valve surely helped contribute to the inability to bleed all the air out of your fuel system.
For those of you that like to replace a fuel filters without filling the filter with diesel first - let this be a #1 lesson!!
It has always baffeled me as to why anyone would knowingly introduce air into a diesel fuel line; when it's so simple to just fill the new filter with fuel!??!
#2 lesson is NOT to change BOTH fuel filters at the same time. Change one, bleed the line, run the engine, then change the other filter, bleed the line/bleed bolt and then run the engine again!!
Also like Stu mentioned, if you change the engine mounted fuel filter you MUST open the hex bleed bolt on the top of the filter until fuel flow out - then close it.
NOT a good idea to use starting fuel ether. It has a much lower flash point than diesel and will ignite while the piston is still coming up!!
A few thoughts
That was a really nice thing Ron did, to help Ron out on the phone. Above & beyond. Thanks from all of us.
Ron (in Brooklyn :D I grew up in Queens :clap),
Aha! You didn't tell us about the leaking knurled knob. Kinda useful information...
Good luck in the repairs and listen to what Ron says. He REALLY knows what he's talkin' about. 8)
I put in a fuel pump shutoff toggle switch in our engine space for bleeding the secondary fuel filter. Singlehanded, it stops the fuel flow when you have diesel comin' out of the filter bracket hole from which you have gingerly removed the small bolt, which you hope you don't drop. IIRC, Ron uses his 1-2-B switch to avoid having to go into the cockpit to turn the fuel pump off.
Hey Catalina crew,
Yes the fuel injector pump bleed valve,
It turns out it wasn't so much the valve that leaked but the loose packing nut below it.
Once I tighten it, which was an hour or so before she started, the well below the block was dry.
I agree whole heartedly that starting fluid isnt a cure all.
And it was the great Nigel, who said to use WD40, instead of starting fluid...
If I have any other starter issues, I will keep you posted..
C U on the water,
Ron
Guys : This should be a plumbing lesson for everyone!!
When a gate valve starts leaking (when opened) the first item to check is the what I call the "gland nut". Whether it be the main water cutoff in your home or the bleed valve on your diesel engine, this gland nut is the first thing to be checked/tighten to try to stop the leak.
I guess that I didn't make myself clear when I said, "Check to see if the gland nut needs tightening". If you overtighten that nut it will stop the leak, but also make it very hard to close that gate valve!!
A thought
The REAL ISSUE......
Well that quick fix (STARTER FLUID) lasted all of an hour or so.
Went down this afternoon, about 40 hrs or so after infamous shot of SF, to go sailing with the wife, and the diesel didnt turn over. Same sh*t...
My first mate rolled her eyes, and said again.....
Anyway, went over the whole bleeding thing again, got fuel coming into the injectors..fine.
Then I went over all the forum notes, and read thru my other documents.
Later, one of my buddies came by, after he had a nice sail, and we brain stormed..
He brought up the grounding issue, he was bothered by the fact that when you turned the key the volt meter guage didn't register, and when we had it started the other afternoon it fluctuated. We pulled out the schematics in the manual and I checked point to point. Laying in the Lazerette with a flashlight I looked behind the panel and noticed a forked terminal connector hanging in the wind, it was broken with occasionally hitting its broken off piece still on the back of the volt meter guage. We pulled off the panel, and replaced the fork terminal, which was a ground for not only the feed for the volt meter but the Glo plug as well.
I reattached the panel, turned the key and Volt Meter Guage light up.
She then turned over beautifully.... Holy Sh...t ..
I guess I was to hungup on a fuel flow or air pocket, that I didnt look at other obvious signs of trouble!!
A few on the forum suggested a ground issue, well you were right... Thanks again, Ron
Good for you. Patience, patience, patience, step-by-step. It's a sailboat, even though it was your motor that had issues.
Nice Job on finding the new culprit!! I found the bright side of solving boat issues is how much I learn about the systems so the next time something fails I can figure out quickly what what steps to take to find the cause. Also learning about what maintence needs to be done to prevent future failures. Time to go sailing and enjoy!!
Rick
RonE : So the readers of your post can better understand how you solved the glow plug wiring problem, let us know if you have a separate glow plug switch next to the starter switch (like the 1986/1987 C34s) or the glow plug switch in the spring loaded position of the key switch like the later 1988s and subsequent - because the engine instrument panel wiring is different.
When you get a chance you might want to add the glow plug modification to your "to do" list.
A thought
Quote from: Ron Hill on August 03, 2012, 01:26:54 PM
When you get a chance you might want to add the glow plug modification to your "to do" list.
Like this: http://www.c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Faster%2C_More_Efficient_Glow_Plug_Heating_with_a_Solenoid
You'll see that I talked about that project in the recent post "Soleniod Project- Wire size.
All that mod. does is route the electrical power from the + connection on the engine directly to the #3 glow plug. Then glow plug switch on the engine insturment panel is wired to that soleniod which opens and closes the #6 wire circuit to the glow plugs.
Unlike Capt Al, I elected to use #6 rather than #8 size wire.
This mod. is already on the M25XPB, M35 and M35BC engines. (that's where the idea came from!!)
A few thoughts
Hey Ron,
The glo plug and key switch are seperate.
Ron
Ron E : You confirmed my suspecions.
You must have a 500 or low 600 hull #. You could just post it right after your production year of 1988!
RonE58, why not add your hull # to your signature?