Catalina 34

General Activities => Main Message Board => Topic started by: Stu Jackson on May 06, 2012, 06:21:15 PM

Title: Good Guys at SENDURE & Heat Exchanger Source & Flix
Post by: Stu Jackson on May 06, 2012, 06:21:15 PM
I was searching for a new 3 inch heat exchanger (HX) for our M25.  I had upgraded from the OEM 2 inch HX many years ago.  We had a persistent fresh water coolant leak - I use the more expensive non-toxic stuff, about $20!!!  Recently the HX bracket broke and we found evidence of continued leakage of coolant.  We found a new bracket at our local Universal distributor.  We replaced all the 7/8" fresh water coolant hoses on the engine (I'd replaced the hoses to the hot water heater a few years ago).   Turns out the broken bracket had let the HX rub against sharp edge of the broken bracket that was still bolted to the engine, and the HX had developed a small hole in the shell of the HX right where it rests on the new bracket - we could see the the coolant leak but the shell was resting on the rubber bicycle tubes I'd installed between the shell and the HX.

In searching for a new HX, I realized Sen-Dure made them and got in touch by phone with them.  If you know the Universal part #, Sen-Dure has a great cross reference system.  Ron was a pleasure and a great help.  I looked in the Universal manual, right here in our C34 Tech wiki section, and the Torreson website (www.marinedieseldirect.com) & (http://www.marinedieseldirect.com/catalogs/catalog_group.php?owner=mdd&page_ident=200142-49&model=M-25%20/%20M-25XP%20/%20M-25XPA&manufacturer=Universal&title=Heat%20Exchanger%20Group%20-%20New&quant_position=&catalog=200142&printparts=&printservice=&printoperators=&comment1=Part%20number%20299835%20is%20for%20the%20M-25XP.), and learned that there are TWO different 3 inch HXs.

Universal Part #302631 is the HX with two separated brackets welded to the shell.  It is used on M25XP engines.  The brackets are bolted to the back of the engine.  This is part #11B on the Torreson parts page.

Universal Part #299835 is the HX without the bracket.  It is used on M25 engines and those M25XPs that may, just may, have the HX that is held on by TWO HUGE HOSE CLAMPS.  There is a separate bracket that bolts on to the engine, is shaped like a saddle, and has a slot for the hose clamps to grip and then grasp the HX [this is Torresson Part #12].  The HX is part #11A on the Torreson parts page.  [Torreson Part #11, #299049 is the OEM 2 inch HX that came with the M25 engines.  Many of us have upgraded to the 3 inch HX for our M25 engines.]

Ron sent me the detailed drawings of both models, and I determined I needed the #299835.

The Universal prices are $860 and $761.  Yikes!!!  Sen-Dure is $456 + s/h & tax.  WOW!

If you need a HX, or other engine related parts, check their catalog on line.  Better yet, call 'em.

Please know that Ron is one of the Really Good Guys.


Ron Schaper
Sales Manager
Sen-Dure Products, Inc.
6785 NW 17th Ave.
Fort Lauderdale, Florida 33309
Phone 954/973-1260
Fax 954/968-7213
R.Schaper@att.net
www.sen-dure.com
Title: Re: Good Guys at SENDURE & Heat Exchanger Source
Post by: Ron Hill on May 06, 2012, 07:02:11 PM
Guys : In case you might be interested there's toll free Tel # (800)282-0123.  Glen Mar Marine,    Ron
Title: Alternative to Sendure
Post by: DaveM on May 07, 2012, 06:44:48 AM
For information found this alternative to the Sendure for the mid $300 made by Seakamp.  Quality looks good.  Will know about performance when I splash in early summer.

http://www.go2marine.com/product/97977F/universal-medalist-direct-replacement-heat-exchangers-oil-coolers.html

Good Winds
DaveM
Title: Re: Good Guys at SENDURE & Heat Exchanger Source
Post by: Mike and Joanne Stimmler on May 07, 2012, 07:13:05 AM
Stu,Could you have had it repaired by a radiator shop?

Mike
Title: Re: Good Guys at SENDURE & Heat Exchanger Source
Post by: Ralph Masters on May 07, 2012, 07:53:56 AM
Grreat information, thanks.  Have the replacing of the HX on my "to do" list.

Ralph

Ciao Bella
Title: Re: Good Guys at SENDURE & Heat Exchanger Source
Post by: Stu Jackson on May 07, 2012, 09:05:29 AM
Stu,Could you have had it repaired by a radiator shop?

Might see if that'll work and save it for a backup, you know, for "next time!"  :D
Title: Re: Good Guys at SENDURE & Heat Exchanger Source
Post by: Ken Juul on May 07, 2012, 10:36:00 AM
IIRC the heat exhanger body is brass.  Just about any welding shop should beable to patch the hole for you.
Title: Re: Good Guys at SENDURE & Heat Exchanger Source
Post by: Mike and Joanne Stimmler on May 07, 2012, 10:52:22 AM
The radiator shop should also be able to pressure test it for you as well, both fresh and sea water sides.
Title: Re: Good Guys at SENDURE & Heat Exchanger Source
Post by: Stu Jackson on May 07, 2012, 06:04:12 PM
New one in today.  Pictures to follow.  Agree with "fix the old one" and will do, thanks.

It all started out with a broken HX engine connection bracket.  Our M25 came with the bracket mounted on the engine and two hose clamps holding the HX to the bracket.  Newer M25XPs come with two brackets welded on to the HX.

Here's the broken bracket, and the new bracket installed with the old HX.  The rubber tube is chafe protection.  When the old bracket let go, the HX banged into the sharp edge of the remaining portion of the bracket left on the engine.
Title: Re: Good Guys at SENDURE & Heat Exchanger Source & Flix
Post by: Stu Jackson on May 09, 2012, 10:48:48 PM
The pictures show:

-- Old & New
-- new elbow from 3/8" NPT at raw water pump to HX with new 5/8" hose to match the HX inlet port (our old hose and elbow was 1/2" while the HX was 5/8" so somebody cobbled it together wrong all these years!!!)
-- the gouges in the old HX
-- new HX installed showing clearance below the exhaust riser (better than Ron's Dollar Bill test!!! :D)
Title: Re: Good Guys at SENDURE & Heat Exchanger Source & Flix
Post by: Stu Jackson on May 09, 2012, 10:50:33 PM
and
Title: Re: Good Guys at SENDURE & Heat Exchanger Source & Flix
Post by: Stu Jackson on May 09, 2012, 10:51:19 PM
and
Title: Re: Good Guys at SENDURE & Heat Exchanger Source & Flix
Post by: DaveM on May 10, 2012, 07:12:23 AM
Stu

That label looks just like the label on the Seakamp heat exchanger I mentioned

Good Winds
DaveM
Title: Re: Good Guys at SENDURE & Heat Exchanger Source & Flix
Post by: Stu Jackson on May 10, 2012, 08:31:19 AM
Added to Engine tech wiki.

Dave's is a great, inexpensive source.

Ken, I think the body is copper, not brass (a non-marine-friendly material).
Title: Re: Good Guys at SENDURE & Heat Exchanger Source & Flix
Post by: Ken Juul on May 11, 2012, 08:13:41 AM
Copper is even easier to fix.   Propane torch and solder.
Title: Re: Good Guys at SENDURE & Heat Exchanger Source & Flix
Post by: Ron Hill on May 11, 2012, 03:26:56 PM
Guys : I found a crack in my HX "saddle" holder when it was about 8 years old (M25XP) in 1996.  

It started at one of the bolt holes (bolts into the top of the bell housing) and went aft.  I took it off, stop drilled the crack and had it welded - the weld was still good 20 years later.
  
A thought I almost forgot.
Title: Re: Good Guys at SENDURE & Heat Exchanger Source & Flix
Post by: Albreen on May 14, 2012, 05:50:50 AM
Timely information Stu and others.........so, Saturday evening I open the engine area to check everything before spring engine work prior to launch this Friday and, there it is, the cracked heat exchanger bracket.......OK, time to clean up the exchanger anyway so I pull all the hoses, the heat exchanger and the bracket to bring home. Anode was completely gone and very stuck in fitting. When I finally pulled the anode, the casing around the welded anode fitting somewhat indented. I started cleaning the exchanger with a slow rotating wire brush and see a pin hole near anode fitting. This brought me to this posting - talk about timing - and the usual wealth of info.  :D

At the moment, I left the heat exchanger at a local shop and should hear back about a possible repair and cost. In the meantime, I have to wait to call Seakamp as they're on the west coast to see if they can ship a new one prior to launch Friday. The bracket was in good shape for a weld and will be today per recommendations here from a few of you. If the cost is reasonable, would you repair the old? Or, should I assume more failures are coming and this was the first hole to show and replace with a new one if I can get it in time (or delay launch a bit)?

BTW - what would cause the bracket to break? Metal fatigue?
Title: Re: Good Guys at SENDURE & Heat Exchanger Source & Flix
Post by: Albreen on May 14, 2012, 08:53:06 AM
I didn't get an estimate for the repair of the heat exchanger this morning and Darren at Seakamp was able to locate for sale a new 3" replacement heat exchanger with a 2 day air service. Cost was slightly over $400 so I went with the new. Darren recommended the 299835CN, copper-nickel for the difference in cost for what he says should be a longer life. Stu's pictures detail perfectly what needs to be done. Thanks to DaveM for the Seakamp source. 
Title: Re: Good Guys at SENDURE & Heat Exchanger Source & Flix
Post by: Albreen on May 24, 2012, 07:07:57 PM
I read in another post about the exhaust riser whereby Ron Hill recommends the $1 bill test for the space between the heat exchanger and the riser. I'm now certain I created a problem by trying to solve another one. My broken HX bracket was welded and afterwards I noticed two additional hairline cracks in the flat surface of the bracket. In thinking it would be a good idea to weld 1/8" stock to the underside of the bracket that bolts to the back of the engine and tack it to the rounded part of the bracket for added support, what I didn't take into account was how close the HX would then be to the exhaust riser. Here's a picture of the bracket - if you look closely you can see the added stock. 
(http://)

The HX fit very, very snug up against the insulation on the exhaust riser. Although all runs well now, I'm concerned I created a problem for down the road. What do you think? Should I replace the repaired old bracket with a new one or attempt to bend the angle of the half circle of this bracket so that the HX sits a bit lower? 
Title: Re: Good Guys at SENDURE & Heat Exchanger Source & Flix
Post by: Stu Jackson on May 25, 2012, 10:40:17 AM
Paul, I paid $63.31 plus tax for my new bracket (Dec. 2011).  I think that potential damage to the riser and/or flange by having the HX rub against it would be worth the cost of a new bracket.  I, too, had a bracket bent for that clearance and that's another way to do it.
Title: Re: Good Guys at SENDURE & Heat Exchanger Source & Flix
Post by: Albreen on May 25, 2012, 10:54:28 AM
Stu - I think I'll go the route of your suggestion. For the mere cost of only $63 or so (it is a boat afterall), eliminating the snug contact and potential wear point is good insurance bought cheaply. Thanks again for all your help with this one and for clarifying the hose in the front of the engine. The hose post saved me at least one trip to the boat and much frustration. :D
Title: Re: Good Guys at SENDURE & Heat Exchanger Source & Flix
Post by: gwp on May 03, 2013, 05:42:29 PM
Just had mine silver soldered for $35 at local welding shop.
Title: Re: Good Guys at SENDURE & Heat Exchanger Source & Flix
Post by: Ron Hill on May 05, 2013, 02:44:18 PM
Guys : The "Dollar Bill" test is really important when you replace your old exhaust riser with a new one.

I found that problem first when I purchased a new riser from the factory and the factory had "over killed" on too much wrapped insulation.  I installed that new riser and couldn't get a seal - so all of the coolant ranout when I first filled the reservoir!!
  
It was then that I figured out that the riser insulation was pressing down on the HX so the flange on the riser would never seal with all that insulation.  When I first got the boat I was popping HX clamps every so often and figured I had bad clamps!  Never realizing that the factory had forced the riser into position and the HX/engine vibration was popping the tightened clamps.

Bottom line - make sure you can pass a dollar bill between the HX and bottom of the riser. This insures that the riser is NOT pressing down on the HX.  

A few thoughts
Title: Re: Good Guys at SENDURE & Heat Exchanger Source & Flix
Post by: Albreen on May 06, 2013, 05:49:23 AM
Regarding the post last year about the bracket and needing more clearance, I decided to have one last go at a bracket fix. My father in law and I untacked the new stock originally added to the bottom of the broken bracket (see picture) and welded it on top of the bracket plate to provide additional support. This dropped the HX lower and I was able to then pass the dollar bill test. Thanks Ron - I had an event free season last year. And, it still looks new this spring too. 
Title: Re: Good Guys at SENDURE & Heat Exchanger Source & Flix
Post by: KWKloeber on July 15, 2014, 07:28:51 AM

Universal Part #299835 is the HX without the bracket.  It is used on M25 engines and those M25XPs that may, just may, have the HX that is held on by TWO HUGE HOSE CLAMPS.  There is a separate bracket that bolts on to the engine, is shaped like a saddle, and has a slot for the hose clamps to grip and then grasp the HX [this is Torresson Part #12].  The HX is part #11A on the Torreson parts page.  [Torreson Part #11, #299049 is the OEM 2 inch HX that came with the M25 engines.  Many of us have upgraded to the 3 inch HX for our M25 engines.]

Ron sent me the detailed drawings of both models, and I determined I needed the #299835.

The Universal prices are $860 and $761.  Yikes!!!  Sen-Dure is $456 + s/h & tax.  WOW!

If you need a HX, or other engine related parts, check their catalog on line.  Better yet, call 'em.


Just be aware anyone looking at Universal/westerbeke parts on the Torreson, aka Marine Diesel Direct. aka Toad website that the prices are not Universal list, they are retail PLUS (generally 10% to 15%.)  Being a Westerbeke parts dealer, I have access to all the list prices and know when someone is overcharging compared to what you can get at the local dealer.  I discount 5% to members.  Also, 450+ boat bucks is too much to pay for a Hx - I also have the heat exchanges used by Un/Wb, but at DEEP discount for Catalina Association members.

-Ken