Catalina 34

Hi, does anyone happen to know the "capsize screening ratio" for a 1987 MK1 standard rig, standard fin keel 5'7"draft?
i.e. the number that is considered good if it is less than 2.00 for offshore sailing.
There was a very useful post where a member did an assessment on his boat and arrived at a figure of 1.98. I cannot decipher the formula that he used to work out this number (my math symbol ability is sadly lacking!). He reports that his boat has a tall rig and a fin keel, so I am wondering if this number is different or even better with a fin keel and standard rig.
It is however encouraging to know that if the figure is 1.98 or better, it is below the 2.00 threshold and makes the 34 a blue water capable boat in terms of stability.....

http://www.c34.org/faq-pages/faq-quantitative.html#CAPSIZE%20RISK

You may wish to look at the web site "Sail Calculator Pro" for the ratios. If the C34 dimensions are correct, it lists both versions of the C34 above 2.00.

Thanks for that info - there seem to be a few numbers out there: 1.98, 1.96 and 2.08!
Any info on the AVS on a MK1 - and any other capsize/stability information?

I sat beside somebody at a pool in Las Hadas and they said "Isn't it great to be doing our PhD's in Blue Water Cruising?".     I said I don't really qualify for candidacy because I had no plans to cross any oceans.  They said, "Are you kidding?  You sailed down from Vancouver off the coast of Oregon, you are a blue water cruiser."   It would probably require several rum drinks to settle this decisively.   

With respect, whether one of the numbers is a 1.9 or a 2.1 doesn't make a damn bit of difference.   What are you planning to do offshore?   Are you going to cross an ocean or run the coast a ways off?    The boat will happily cross oceans if prepared properly.   The question is are you comfortable with the notion of this boat in any weather (the true bluewater test where you have to take what's coming because the forecast at the time you left was only good for a few days)?

This is a lively boat.  It's not some full keeler where you can lash the helm and go below and make a pot of tea in a gale.   It will surf at twelve to thirteen knots in a moderately large sea.   You need to have a strategy for controlling that speed or you will broach.   How will you steer?  For three days? (not your autopilot).   It has a huge cockpit with relatively low freeboard.   How will you get the water out when a sea breaks into it?   How will you stop the water from downflooding through the huge locker lids?   When the wave rips off your anchor locker lid and puts a quarter ton of water in your bow, how will she perform?   When it rolls over (think upside down) what will your batteries, engine, and all the contents of your lockers be doing?   How's your rig?  Your rudder?  Your ground tackle?

So the numbers are a good armchair starting point, but not really the deciding factor in sea readiness for blue water.   You are on the light fast end of blue water boats.   Develop strategy and approach around that.   Most importantly find a day off San Diego when the seas are 15 feet and the wind is blowing about 20.  Go sailing.  Are you comfortable?  This boat can be prepared and is a great boat for cruising.   Like any other boat, it will take some time and money to get it ready.   You'll find a lot of lesser vessels on islands in the middle of the Pacific. 

Very well said....

I agree totally with what was said above.  Some more details.

The Capsize Ratio (C/R) has nothing to do with mast height or type of keel.  It is an empirical value that predicts how resistant a boat is to a knockdown.  It was developed by the technical committee of the Cruising Club of America after the 1979 Fastnet disaster.  It is determined by dividing the beam by the resultant of displacement/64 raised to the 0.33 power.  From the Owners Manuals, the Mk I & II beam/displacement numbers are close enough be the same, 11.75'/12000#.  That gives an average design CR of 2.089.  In the design numbers, the shoal draft keel actually gives a slightly better CR because the displacement is 500# heavier to make up for the lack of moment arm.  Looking at the reality side of things, most C34s in cruising configuration probably have a displacement closer to 16000#.  This lowers the CR to 1.89.

Very good Waterdog :thumb:
That's true with everything from a Sunfish to a TP52. In many cases, YOUR capsize rating is just as, if not more, important than the boats. I have a couple of sailing friends who I would not want to be on their boat in any level wind as they don't have the comfort/confidence level in themselves even though their boats are capable of so much more.

just want to share a quick story pertaining to this topic. last season, early may, we were on our final approach to salem harbor. one more tack needed. in the distance, maybe 1/4 mile, i noticed what appeared to be water funnels rising from the ocean about 10' into the air. i instantly called to come about, we were under full sail.  the next thing i remember was being on the sole, holding onto the wheel for dear life. we had been knocked over with what turned out to be a 70mph micro burst. as i lay on the sole looking out, not up at my mast,tall rig, water gushing over the combing into the cockpit,  i thought, holy sh_t, we're going to sink. i couldn't believe a 6 ton boat could be put right on her side, in an instant. one mate was on the high side holding on for dear life and i saw my other mate on the low,port, side. i screamed for him to let the genny go. once free, the boat started slowly to right herself. i have been sailing for 45+ years and have encountered many scary episodes at sea,but this was the most frightening. what it did prove was that the boat stayed together and would right herself if tension on sails were off. capsize ratios or not, take heed, be careful of mother nature, she will always win...jeff

Jeff's story makes a very good point.  All the technical information about CR and other things is of no use to anybody if the captain does not keep his head and do the things necessary to stabilize any situation in which you might find yourself.  I am not nearly so experienced as Jeff, but I try to stay ahead of what might happen in the conditions of the day.  I learned a great lesson many years ago from an old army sergeant in a far away place on a very unpleasant night.  I was getting pretty excited over the circumstances overtaking us and in the middle of it all he stood there and said to me, "Main thing lieutenant is don't get excited!"  The captain of the vessel needs to keep his wits.
Mark Mueller

Thanks everyone for your input. Ken gets my award so far for "closest answer to the question posed"! :-)
Background to the question: I am actually British, finding myself in San Diego due to marriage, and in possession of a wonderful 1987 34 MK1. We were out saiking today in fact. (In fact, not being a US Citizen, the Admiral actually owns the boat, so I am just the driver really - as she told me today....)
I am a qualified RYA Yachtmaster Offshore and I do appreciate the comments regarding oufitting the boat for longer passages and abilities of the crew etc....all very spot on....I am simply looking for theory and base facts to consider as part of my decisions about the future of this boat and any plans to go further afield....in terms of how far would I take her and therefore how much to invest in the 34 vs perhaps not investing so much and looking for a "blue water cruiser" (whole other debate, a lot of which I do not agree with..,, being really heavy is not the answer in itself!!!) for the "offshore" part.
So, if anyone has some basic "handbook" type facts about the AVS, capsize angles, sceening etc, that is great. Kens answer was very useful and informatative.
Actually, despite the numbers I would more than likely take this boat as far as I wanted to go....I am not looking for a floating condo like many are, am happy to "cruise in what I have"......for crying out load, I'm English, and I'm amazed that she actually has a shower, of all things....I'm used to bobbing about in the Channel washing out of a bucket of seawater....;-)
P.S. The engine overheated today in the way back into San Diego Bay from a great sail, freshwater heat/exchanger problem most likely, so we put her onto a mooring buoy to let the engine cool a bit while a friend came out to tow us back into the vicinity of our slip, where the engine went on for 5 minutes to dock the boat....some engine repairs to do now, so the "blue water" equipping plans will be delayed by reality for now....

Mark, you might be interested in steve's 1500 mile report and then some: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5270.0.html (http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5270.0.html)

I think markr may be attempting to determine the blue water readiness of his C34 and whether to invest $'s into the boat if he intends to travel long passages. IMHO, it is fair to answer Markr with saying the C34 was intended to be a solid, comfortable, well performing coastal cruiser and not a blue water boat. Modifications to components may make it more blue water ready, but it was neither designed, constructed nor intended for such use (see Practical Sailor C34 boat review). Waterdog infers correctly with

This is interesting - the CE designations for Catalina models......see this link.
http://www.catalinayachts.com/certif.cfm

Very interesting.  So the 34 is A rated but not designed for ocean crossing.   It would be interesting to see the detailed spec on what an A or "Ocean" rating means.

Mark, if you are looking for a handbook, Chapter 3 of Beth Leonard's "The Voyagers Handbook" is an excellent piece explaining the various numerical criteria and qualitative design aspects for A Bluewater-Capable Yacht.  It's really worth a read.   In fact she includes a Catalina 34 in a comparison of stability meaasures for similar sized boats.   In the around 35 feet class she includes a Crealock 34, Tartan 34, Bristol 355, Contessa 35 all of which exceed all criteria.   The Catalina, Hunter, Baltic & J34 miss the mark.   

She lists the Catalina 34 as:

DLR 252
Righting Moment at 1 degree of heel 885
IMS Stability Index   113.9 (recommended > 120)
Stability Ratio 2.1 (recommended >2)
CSV 1.95 (recommended <2)

So the boat is right in the middle of this pack and just barely misses the mark for Bluewater on the numbers.   Reading the rest of the chapter will give you way more value than further numerical analysis.

We were in exactly the same place as you a year and half ago.   Tracey wouldn't let me sell the house so we opted to sail what we had and limit ourselves to a small little coastal cruise from Vancouver down to Zihuatanejo.   We just turned over 4000 miles on this trip coming into Banderas Bay the other night.   The boat is beautifully suited for this type of trip (prepared of course).  It seems we have the comfort performance and space of most of the 40 foot "bluewater" boats we run into.   We are very happy with the choice.   

Markr, hope your overheating wasn't because of the kelp beds off Point Loma. That stuff tends to clog intakes ahd foul props and rudders.

Mike

Thanks Waterdog - I don't understand all the stats that you have written yet - need to read that book. Is AVS (Angle of Vanishing Stability) readily bandied about in the US? I comment becasue i don't see it included there in the stats. That book definitely looks worth a read.
Mike & Joanne: I am waiting for a definitive answer from the mechanic. The fresh water coolant was burning off and there was salt water coming out of the exhaust when I started the engine - I was not driving and there may have been a period where the intake was blocked by kelp???
Apparently the heat exchanged was 40% blocked and he was going to test the thermostat.....so I will hopefully get a diagnosis.....

Mark,
Please don't take this negatively, I think you are getting cart in front of the horse. You are discussing plans on doing blue water cruising.  The information you seek on boat stability, seaworthiness, etc is important.  But I think more important is being self sufficient.

The engine systems in the C34 may seem incredibly complex.  But they are really basic systems.  As you continue your preparations and search for the boat to handle your dreams, I suggest you attend an engine seminar or two.  You don't need to know how to overhaul it.  But knowing how to change belts, diagnose/fix overheating, clean the heat exchanger, change the oil, adjust the valves, etc will go a long way to making you comfortable on any boat by yourself. You will be amazed at the things you can do with a little knowledge and a few wrenches.

Keep the questions coming.  Watch and learn from the folks that fix your boat this time so you can be better prepared to handle it yourself next time.  I was fortunate, grew up on a farm where learning how to fix things became second nature.  If you are smart enough to figure out sail trim, then you are smart enough to do the rest.  Jump in and get your hand dirty.

Angle of vanishing stability is a very common term in the boat design field.  It does not get much discussion among lay sailors.  If you are going to study boat design you will become very familiar with the term.

Quote from: markr on March 09, 2010, 04:16:42 PM
Thanks Waterdog - I don't understand all the stats that you have written yet - need to read that book. Is AVS (Angle of Vanishing Stability) readily bandied about in the US? I comment becasue i don't see it included there in the stats. That book definitely looks worth a read.

AVS angle of vanishing stability is still around.   It's also called the LPS or limit of positive stability.   It's the angle of heel at which there is zero righting moment (you're going over).     Leonard's discussion of all of this is really good.  

The reason you don't see it is because nobody actually tests for it other than solo southern ocean racers and hardly any of the manufacturers actually publish the calculated curve (at least not the ones that sell boats at boat shows based on the layout of the galley and the number of heads).  That's why there are a bunch of comparisons/ratios derived from published data like length, beam, displacement etc.   They are easy to get numbers for any boat though they don't necessarily yield the most meaningful stability data.     

Other great references to Waterdog's recommendation is:
Desirable and Undesirable Characteristics of Offshore Yachts (A Nautical quarterly book) and Nigel Calder's Cruising Handbook: A Compendium for Coastal and Offshore Sailors. I'm sure many on the C34 list have other favorites too.  :D

Well, thanks for all the info and responses. I just wanted to respond to Ken Juul, at great risk of becoming a pariah on this forum!
Thing is, I have to say that being new to this forum, and being new (a year now) to my Catalina 34 does not make me new to sailing. I think that this is a common misconception on this forum - new to C34, not new or inexperienced in sailing in general. Simply because I am asking for some information, does not mean that I am ignorant of, or have failed to consider, other aspects. Now, emails and posts do have a way of being miscontrued, so responses on this forum have the potential to come across wrong. I have been seeking information on basic statistics and facts on the 34. I have also been conversationally relating some recent occurrences on my boat....
Personally, I have been sailing for 26 years. I am a commercially endorsed RYA/MCA yachtmaster offshore with time as a charter captain. I am also a yacht broker (Beneteau - www.scyachts.com) - big confession LOL!
So, I am the first to admit that I far from know it all, which is why I am asking questions. I have serviced engines on a variety of boats. I have completed the RYA Approved Engineering Course. But, my engine everheated and being something beyond a normal event, I had a machanic look at it - apparently it was a thermostat problem. The Universal Diesel is not a complicated animal overall, but I don't have a spare thermostat on board......
In terms of the blue water crusining - I am just doing long term research. I have young kids and the boat is perfect for family cruising here in San Diego. I had a bit of a scare when I thought my wife was going to transfer to Florida and I was going to take the boat through the canal and across to Tampa from San Diego...which I would have happily done (and not sold her!)...but that did not happen so I have much more time to research how far I will go in equipping her.
The question is really - research on whether, at some point in the future, I would take my 34, fully equipped, round the world, or across to Australia, or back to the UK, or whether I would sell her and buy some other boat.....
Now, I will dig my foxhole and wait for the incoming....! ;-)

So the ratings only mention the MkII.  How does that apply to the older original design?  My thoughts are that the closed transom is a strength to a point, but that if it were swamped the water would stay in the cockpit MUCH longer entering through lockers and the companionway.  Are there any ways to mitigate this risk?

I have my boat on an inland lake where she will stay for the foreseeable future, but I dream of taking her to the Caribbean.

And another thing:
Waterdog, thanks for the input on AVS. I have Beth Leonards book on order and I look forward to it. I found your comments about your cruise heartening. I find the C34 to be a great boat and the use of space below is exceptional.
In the UK, the use of the term AVS is far more widespread. Most information about boats will refer to the AVS and if my memory serves me correctly I remember AVS graphs/curves being readily available.
It is useful, but of course not essential - there is a huge debate about what a blue water cruiser is/should be. Modern boats do not have the same characteristics as older, narrow, full keeled boats. I do look forward to reading Beth Leonards comparisons - and so long as the 34 is "acceptable" I would be comfortable equipping mine and sailing further afield. I take all information "under advisement" and make my own calls....
I recently purchased a book called "20 affordable sailboats" off the Lats & Atts website. It was a breath of fresh air - even though it does not include the 34. It talks about reaching back into a past era (70's - 80's) for a gem of a boat that will make offshore cruising affordable and safe. In the foreword there are also some comments that ring true for me, a Brit, and probably for many on this forum: it talks about what is affordable and safe, and warns not to confuse this with what may be bigger, better and more expensive (i.e. make your neighbor envious and go cruising in a floating condo!) - according to the author this syndrome is a North American thing, which for these older 32-38' boats would only be achieved by "coating them in gold leaf"...hahaha!
So, as long as my 34 is seaworthy, equipped and provisioned, I would be happy going cruising. I have a solar panel project in mind.....

Chedlin: true. A walkthrough transom has a great advantage for draining water out of the cockpit - interesting if the MK1 closed transom makes the structure of the boat stronger? I have been mulling over ways to put additional or wider cockpit drains in my MK1. Although the companionway entrance is large, I have modified my hatchboards to hold them in, and thus keep water from rushing down into the interior ( a pooping not being an event I anticipate in the near future, but with an eye to future cruises!).
I bought some small plastic clam cleat thingys from west marine and put one on each side of the top part of each hatchboard. I then have bungy cord attached at each side of the companionway so that I can run it up through the cleats on the bottom, or both, of the hatchboards. The cleats grip the bungy so that I can cinch down the boards and keep them in place.
I called Catalina some time ago and asked them about the MkII being CE rated A, and there being no rating for the MK1. There are some specific things that you have to do to a MK1 to get the CE rating. You have to have a metal shield on the bulkhead next to the stove. You have to have a backing panel to the engine start panel. CE is a European thing that boats now conform to. He told me words to the effect that "they had not had to change the manufacturing procedures between the MKI and MKII in order to get the CE rating on ther MKII" - the implication being that the MK1 confoms in terms of strength/quality of build, except for the specific needs of the CE rating. Apparently I could get my boat CE rated, by inspection, so long as I have the things done to it (a previous owner did put the stove screen on, unless it was always there...?)
I think that to say any more, he would have had to get his legal department involved in case I took him at his word and headed out into the southern ocean....

As a broker, I notice that most boats are now advertising themselves as CE Rated A for "unlimited offshore". Of course, this means that your boat is seaworthy for those conditions (i.e wind and waves as stated, can't remember the specifics...) Therefore, back to Ken Juul"s point: It does not mean that the boat is equipped or capable of crossing an ocean....mainly due to tankage/saftey gear issues.....
We sell new Beneteau fully equipped for coastal or limited offshore cruising. They are extremely well built boats and CE rated A. However, if anyone is buying the boat for extended crusing or liveboard purposes, there are naturally some improvements or additions that can be made... ranging from bimini/dodger, to watermaker, to various types of additional safety gear etc.....

Quote from: markr on March 11, 2010, 02:17:46 PM

So, as long as my 34 is seaworthy, equipped and provisioned, I would be happy going cruising. I have a solar panel project in mind.....

Talk to me about solar panels.   I have some ideas.  And watermakers.  And sail making.  And upholstery.  And series drogues.  I had some great help from folks on this site when I did the mother of all refits.   For me it came down to three things that mattered:   rig, rudder, and ground tackle.   Everything else was a nice to have.  And I think we added all of it...

Waterdog:
Ok, so I am on the list for a mooring to save some money on slip fees. Issue: powering the batteries with no shore power and away from the boat. Answer: solar panels! But, if I am installing solar, why not do it properly to allow me to use it while crusing/at the hook etc and not just trickle charge the batteries.
I was doing some research. I don't have any canvas on the boat, and if/when I have some spare cash (and after I get new sails...) I would prefer to get a dodger as first priority and then maybe later a bimin.
However, I was looking at a way to install solar panels beyind one of those nasty plastic holders they sell with the panels. I would really like a transom arch, but that is too expensive. I was thinking of building my own frame to mount the panels port and starboard on the puship frame, so that panels could be lifted out to the sides or left flat against the pushpit - but then I went back to my boat, remembered what she looked like, and realized that the pushpit frame does not extend far enough forward from the transom to accommodate solar panels.
I want two panels, to generate some decent power. So, I am thinking to kill two birds with one stone and have a bimini frame built (much cheaper than a really nice looking arch) and have the panels mounted port and starboard on top of the frame. I can add the canvas later....
If the panels are mounted each side, I should still be able to look up from the helm and see my sail trim....so long as when I put the canvas on I include a skylight in the bimini...
So, that is my solar panels thought process so far, and it will be stimulated into action if my names comes up for a mooring....the project is limited by available funds, and my first choice would be a transom mounted arch....

Here's what Steve did:  http://www.c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Solar_Power

Mark, it sounds like you're following some footsteps in your quest.  FYI, Steve did a major refit/upgrade/safety check on his boat before he left what I call Northern Washington State, eh? or Southern Alaska, eh?: Vancouver, BC.  He's now in Mexico.  He's posted almost all of his updates and recommendations here, although he has been too busy having fun to move them from the message board to the wiki, or to direct you to his earlier posts.  I'm guessing he also is not prepared to retype the answers. 

So, if you click on his name on one of his posts, you can find his earlier posts, or do an advanced search using his screen name under whatever individual subject matter you're interested in.

This topic has strayed somewhat from the original CSR into solar.  Changing subjects can be so much fun!  :D :D :D