Catalina 34

General Activities => Main Message Board => Topic started by: learjetzz on February 03, 2010, 04:56:13 PM

Title: anchor choices
Post by: learjetzz on February 03, 2010, 04:56:13 PM
Hey Guys,
Which anchor is better ROCNA or... MANSON ?

Thank You for any opinions.
Title: Re: anchor choices
Post by: Stu Jackson on February 03, 2010, 05:17:23 PM
Your boat, your choice. 

We like our Rocna, pulls ya off the bow when you're setting it, easy to retrieve.

Save a long discussion:  read this:  http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,2705.0.html (http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,2705.0.html)
Title: Re: anchor choices
Post by: waterdog on February 04, 2010, 09:35:35 AM
What discussion?   A 20kg Rocna and you will experience unbounded happiness.    And they only pay me a small fee for expressing my unbiased opinion on this board...
Title: Re: anchor choices
Post by: Rick Johnson on February 04, 2010, 01:27:37 PM
Steve,  between the commissions from Sailrite and Rocna you must have a huge cruising kitty fund!  And you and your C34 are now famous.

Yet famous or not, I think I'll take your unbiased opinion on both!  Now if I could just learn to sew...

Cheers,

Rick

Title: Re: anchor choices
Post by: Ron Hill on February 04, 2010, 03:14:57 PM
Learjet:  Your anchor question falls into the other questions that you might also ask!  
Which is the best :
1. Religion
2. Political party

I think you'll find that ANCHORS, BATTERIES (wet cell/gel/agm), 150%/135% GENOA's, CNG/PROPANE, synthetic/regular ENGINE OIL and a few others etc., ALL tend to be Hot Button issues with individual C34 owners !!
 
So when you get the answers it all depends on who is answering the question !!
Title: Re: anchor choices
Post by: waterdog on February 04, 2010, 07:02:05 PM
Ron is right of course.   The first thing I did when I bought the boat was read all of the information on the site about what was the right anchor because my 10kg Bruce seemed undersized to me.   I read all the posts and reached the conclusion that I needed a 15kg claw type after absorbing all the info.   I bought one.   It failed me on two occasions after properly setting.   Now I have a Rocna and I have seriously tested it and I have converted. 

The original question was Rocna or Manson.    Either is probably a good choice.   These are very similar religions...   And you probably don't have to go to 20kg.   15kg would likely do well depending on your anchoring conditions.    Stu does fine with 10kg (he does a hand pull).

Interestingly, there are more and more cruisers in 40ish foot boats that are dropping 100lb anchors.   Seems like overkill, but if you can handle the weight in the bow, an extra 60lbs or something is nothing for a windlass.    People doing serious miles dropping the hook in unknown anchorages place a huge premium on their ground tackle.   They often don't care about their engines (at least they don't let their safety depend upon an engine running), but they rely on their ground tackle.   
Title: Re: anchor choices
Post by: Michael Shaner on February 04, 2010, 10:38:25 PM
I have a 35 lb Manson, and I think it very may well set and hold a C34 on a concrete sidewalk. I'd wager a Rocna may do the same. These anchors are a masterpiece of engineering...it's a new era in anchors man...

I still can't figure out how anybody (Stu) gets them off the bottom gracefully all by his onesie... :D
Title: Re: anchor choices
Post by: Stu Jackson on February 04, 2010, 11:12:16 PM
Quote from: Michael Shaner on February 04, 2010, 10:38:25 PM
I still can't figure out how anybody (Stu) gets them off the bottom gracefully all by his onesie...

By using the techniques learned from this board and other anchoring and de-anchoring material:

1.  Don't use the windlass to pull the boat up over the anchor - easy to do with no windlass :D

2.  Get the chain up & down

3.  Wait a bit and haul

Any anchor will come up easily when you're right above it.

Not all of them grab the bottom as well as "our Rocnas!" and Mansons.
Title: Re: anchor choices
Post by: Ron Hill on February 05, 2010, 05:07:16 PM
Guys : If you are looking at a plow/scoop type anchor for a C34, I recommend that you stay with the 30-35lb category.  You need the weight to really get it to dig in, hold and be able to take a 180 turn (ie. T-storm wind/tidal changes).

Of course I also use 50ft of Hi Tensile chain.  Also don't forget the swivel between the chain and the anchor, so the anchor can do it's own thing(as the chain tends to twist).

As most of us have mentioned, it's prudent to always carry two differant types of anchors for differant bottom conditions.  A few thoughts
Title: Re: anchor choices
Post by: Stu Jackson on February 06, 2010, 07:57:18 AM
And for another repeat of these important issues:

Anchor SYSTEM Sizing Tables:  see reply #6, here:  http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4990.0.html (http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4990.0.html)  It's not just the anchor, it's all of the individual parts.

Anchor Fits on C34 Bow Roller0 with pictures:  http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5336.0.html (http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5336.0.html)

Title: Re: anchor choices
Post by: mainesail on February 07, 2010, 10:43:22 AM
As one of the few sailors out here who actually owns both....either.

While I use the Rocna, the Manson is well built and has performed identically to my Rocna, no complaints with either anchor. Here in Maine performance has been 100% set on the first try, nearly instantaneous sets 100% of the time, no draggings, and 100% re-sets on wind tide shifts, which we see on nearly every anchoring. I have well over 100 anchorings on both anchors, probably 140 on the Manson and about 170 or so with the Rocna. I have not been able to see any performance difference between the two..

While the Rocna is ever so slightly better built, the Manson is a LOT less money for very similar, if not the same, performance. The construction details should not drive this decision as they are very close.

For a C-34 a Rocna 15kg is more than enough. My 15kg has survived 60+ on a 36' boat with a loaded displacement over 18k..
Title: Re: anchor choices
Post by: learjetzz on February 07, 2010, 06:23:41 PM
Stu, Ron, Waterdog and all that convinced me .

My Boat, Your Opinion .

Gettin' My ROCNA On.

Fair Winds   
Title: Re: anchor choices
Post by: Roc on February 10, 2010, 12:02:33 PM
Ron mentions the use of a swivel between the anchor and chain.  However, I've read on this site that a swivel is not a good idea because it is a weak link that compromises the overall tensile strength of the system.  There are those that have witnessed failures.  Any thoughts on this subject?
Title: Re: anchor choices
Post by: Stu Jackson on February 10, 2010, 12:18:02 PM
Roc, a search on "anchor swivel" found this:  http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5109.0.html (http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5109.0.html)

Try some more search results on that topic.  I refuse to even consider one.
Title: Re: anchor choices
Post by: Ron Hill on February 10, 2010, 05:16:03 PM
Roc : Examine the marine catalogs, contact Hayn (an American manufacture) and look at the Safe Working Load numbers of differant type/size swivels.  Then look at your SWLs of your chain and nylon rode.

Then you decide which one is the weakest link.

There is one indisputable fact -- chain twists and the more chain you use the more it twists !!!

Your choice your boat - A few thoughts.
Title: Re: anchor choices
Post by: mainesail on February 11, 2010, 11:12:09 AM
Ron,

I'd be very curious to see this Hayn swivel and the part number. I suspect you were perhaps sold misleading information by a vendor? I like Hayn stuff, as it is top quality, but I have their full line catalog in front of me with no anchor swivels. I then perused the web site to find it and no anchor swivels. As a last ditch I called them, and was informed that they don't make an anchor swivel?


Personally I've never found the need to use a swivel and I've used both all chain and chain/rode. I have seen and heard of a few broken ones and prefer to just use load rated shackles, chain and rode.  Even with all the tide and wind shifts we get up here, lots, rode twist has never even so much as made me think about adding a swivel to my ground tackle system even after multiple day anchorings and thousands of anchorings over 30+ years..

Rode twist can be more prevalent and tougher to deal with when using all chain though so in some case a swivel may be necessary especially if you anchor for multiple days at a time in one spot without re-setting. Even when I anchor in one spot I still physically re-set every two days. If you're going to be anchored in one spot for weeks on end I can & could see the need for a swivel.

Some of the stainless swivels, such as the Suncor & the Kong, do not have a way, other than using Loc-Tite, of mousing or securing the pins. I would have a real tough time trusting my boat to Loc-Tite glued pins when it is sitting on the bottom of the ocean. My neighbor lost his anchor to a Crosby shackle that he "tightened with a two pipe wrenches". Pins can move with high chain loads and while Loc-Tite is great stuff but I do prefer to mechanically wire my pins shut for piece of mind.. Perhaps I'm being overly cautious but I have rarely if ever heard of a Crosby or CM load rated galvanized shackle failing when properly moused and have read of and actually seen a stainless swivel failure on a Grand Banks trawler.

One key that I saw in the photo of the failed Kong swivel is that it was connected directly to the anchor shank. These swivels are not really designed for taking side loads. If using one I would prefer it to be between two lengths of chain so it would not see as much side loading, if any. Connecting it directly to a fixed shank of an anchor can create tremendous side loads that the swivel was not really rated for and this could drastically de-rate the WLL. Every now and then a company will give a rating both ways but side loads generally reduce working loads by a significant amount With some shackles it halves the WLL.

My own rode system was designed as close to the highest posted or published holding power for my specific anchor. I use a Rocna 33 pound anchor and it has been tested at 5000 pounds of holding power which was the limit of the strain gauge used.

Despite the West Marine adviser stating 1/4" chain and 1/2" rode being fine for my boat I chose to ignore their advisory because it would mean a system rated at HALF what my 33 pound anchor has been published and tested to hold. It could potentially mean leaving a $500.00 anchor on the bottom. I wound up choosing significantly larger chain, 3/8", and a 5/8 double braid rode made by Nova Braid and as I have done for over 30 years and thousands of anchorings, with no issues, no swivel.

I've also witnessed lots of boaters using galvanized swivels. The warnings for ACCO products including the connecting links, swivels and chain are as follows.

WARNING: Do not exceed Working Load Limits (WLL)!
See the "Cautions and Warnings" section before using these products. Pages 72-77.

From pg. 72
Working Load Limit (WLL)
"The "Working Load Limit" (rated capacity) is the maximum load that shall be applied in direct tension."

From pg. 76
"Remember, the definition of Working Load Limit? It's "the maximum load that shall be applied in direct tension to a new and undamaged length of chain. That means straight line pull."


Considering that the WLL for the ACCO swivel is only 1500 pounds, and they only make one model or size, and even a a small 25 pound anchor can hold that much or more. I think there are limited uses for these galvanized swivels unless you have not sized a rode & chain to hold what your anchor can. As I mentioned my 33 pounder has been shown to hold 5000 pounds +/- so using a swivel with a 1500 pound WLL would greatly increase the potential for a rode failure with my ground tackle.

Swivels are and can be safe, but they should be inspected, sized and installed safely and properly. If you need one use one. I have not personally needed one even with 10-12 foot tides swinging the boat all over the place. The swivel I use on my mooring system in three sizes larger than the top chain, which is 3/4" and inspected two or three times per season as it sees the most wear on the system.

Title: Re: anchor choices
Post by: Ron Hill on February 11, 2010, 03:27:34 PM
Maine : As you are relatively new to this form (2007), you apparently do not know that Ron does not speak with "forked tongue".

The reason that I got into a swivel at all was after reading all the reasons that the moorings up in your area need a swivel ! It's been my experience that in a 24 hr period that the boat could easily swing(circle) around the anchor because of wind & current -a couple of times !
Made sense to me so I attached a swivel to my 33 Bruce anchor (genuine not the Chinese look alike).  My system of Bruce, swivel, 1/4" HT chain and 1/2" braid Sampson nylon rode has held me thru many T-storms.  Two of the storms I had another C34 rafted to mine and we turned 180 degrees, very heavy wind and we didn't move.  So I'm happy.

I bought my stainless swivel over 18? years ago and it was from no "misleading vendor", because the guy that sold it to me was none other than Carl Hayn himself.        A few thoughts
Title: Re: anchor choices
Post by: mainesail on February 11, 2010, 04:46:56 PM
Quote from: Ron Hill on February 11, 2010, 03:27:34 PM

I bought my stainless swivel over 18? years ago and it was from no "misleading vendor", because the guy that sold it to me was none other than Carl Hayn himself.        A few thoughts

Yes permanent moorings up here need swivels but the boats swing to them for weeks at a time. As I said nothing wrong with a well made swivel, properly installed, and inspected.

The info on Carl Hayn is why I asked. I was excited to hear they made anchor swivels but then confused when I could not find them?  I wish Hayn had not stopped making swivels, they make beautiful stuff and it is a company that I would trust to make a proper swivel.

The only reason I mentioned the potential of a "misleading vendor" is because I ordered a Wichard snap shackle from a "reputable" vendor and when I got it, it was a no-name, for the same price as the Wichard. It seems some vendors like to up-sell on a name and then send you cheaper no-name. Most boaters would never miss the "W" logo, but I did.. I figured you had an answer about the Hayn as you are usually spot on..