About 45 minutes out, while motoring at 2100 RPM the engine sound changed then dropped to about 1800. Engine would not exceed that speed regardless of throttle position. Checked all below. No sign of anything. Gauges all OK. No alarms , leaks, odors, etc. Then I saw some wisp of smoke or exhaust in the vicinity of the air cleaner filter. Shut it down quick. Then I checked the dip stick. Water in the engine oil. How!
After 30-40 years I finally had to use the towing insurance.
It's a Universal 35B engine with less than 400 hours, I am meticulous (anal) bout servicing schedules and checking all. I even keep records in the log. Never had a start problem, so that's not it.
Any clues? What could catastrophically fail to cause this?
Mechanic is coming, but if I can find that old target pistol first.........
Stewart Napoleon
Desiree, 34 MkII #1472
What could catastrophically fail to cause this?
Any number of things:
== a blown head gasket
== a cracked block
== a faulty (or non-working) vented loop on the raw water connection to the exhaust riser nipple allowing water to seep back into the cylinders
You'll need to do some detective work.
Dave Sanner wrote a great article about working on the engine in Projects and is also in the WIKI. See: http://www.c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Rebuilding_the_M25-XP The pictures are worth the price of admission...
Good luck.
Stewart : Be prepared for an oil change.
The mechanic will probably want to see how much water, as a starter and if anti freeze may be mixed in.
Update: FYI
Sea water in crankcase was caused by failure of a seal in the Sherwood raw water pump. This allowed the impeller to force water into the engine oil. Apparently this is not an uncommon failure. But, I had never heard of it. Drained the contrents of the crankcase and then filled with fresh oil and some (16oz.) of diesel fuel and emptied three times without starting the engine. Replaced pump, ran engine (started first try) and changed another three times. Engine running normally at mooring one hour at a time, oil is clear. Will take it off and run under load today and advise.
Desiree, C34 MkII
Quote from: Stewartn on July 13, 2009, 06:30:31 AM
Sea water in crankcase was caused by failure of a seal in the Sherwood raw water pump. This allowed the impeller to force water into the engine oil. Apparently this is not an uncommon failure. But, I had never heard of it.
That's the appropriate fix. It is unusual for the seals to go without showing evidence of a water leak on the outside of the engine first. Had you noticed dripping or salt stains around the pump base?
I can't speak for any other pumps, but the legendary "Old Sherwood" has a weep hole between the water side seal and the oil side seal...the theory being if one seal fails, the fluids won't mix, but you'll know you have an issue.
Guys : I agree with David !!
In every raw water pump there are 2 seals, one to keep the water in the water side and one to keep the oil in the engine. In between are at least one or usually two weep holes so you know what is leaking/which lip seal need to be changed.
I'd be sceptical of your mechanics analysis, unless both weep holes were solidly clogged. Even then I'd still be sceptical. My thoughts.
More to the sad story of mixing sea water in the engine oil. Apparently, the muck and mire inside the crankcase conspired to murder the diesel injection pump. It is now being rebuilt. This is a very very expensive learning experience. The boat passed, with flying colors, a survey in late 2007. It ran like a clock through all 2008. In the spring of 2009, I had a trusted mechanic look it over, touch up the paint, help with the filters and check for leaks. NADA! Then 6 hrs later - disaster. There never was any "weeping" or wet spots on the front of the engine. Trust me. I'm anal about this stuff and I have been doing it for about 40 years. Now Universal (Hansen Marine) advises that the valve springs may have corrosion and should be changed. What can can I say? This engine design with that raw water pump stinks. If there is another boat in my life, bet it will have a Yanmar.
I to am skeptical of the water pump theory. I also lean more twords exhaust / muffler,cracked head / head gasket issues.
Sorry to hear of the continuing woes. I would certainly like to learn from this to avoid similar problems happening...
Since you mention that this happened fairly soon after spring maintenance, can you share how the engine was winterized? I presume that you are subject to frosts in CT?
Tony
Good point Tony, maybe there is a crack in the block during a winter freeze.
It is not a cracked block! The engine is cooled only by antifreeze. The coolant is cooled by the heat exchanger. A cracked block would show Antifreeze in the oil. Not so.
Neither was there sea water back flowing from the exhaust. We know this because we removed the riser to inspect it. Bone dry.
It was definitely the raw water pump - an OEM Sherwood. The pump has less than 400 hrs total. Impellers were changed regularly. The boat was yard maintained before I purchased her.
She was winterized in accordance with the owners manual and with the help of a trusted mechanic because it was my first lay up with her. We flushed with fresh water and added -100 degree antifreeze to the raw water system after a filter and oil change.
To restate.... There never was a leak that could be determined with a visual inspection. It just went, period.
The C34 knowledge base has a lot of responds with Sherwood leak problems. My issue is that nowhere , that I can find, in the Universal literature does it say REPLACE THE PUMP AT.....or remove and inspect at a certain interval. If it did, I certainly would have done that. The design is poor. It's a Kubota tractor engine that's been adapted to Marine use. Yard tractors don't have to worry about sea water. Obviously, Mr. Universal and Mr. Westerbeke didn't worry enough.
I understand that the system is separate, except for the water pump.
You say that you "added -100 degree antifreeze to the raw water". The way I winterize is to pump non-toxic antifreeze through the raw water system until it comes out full strength through the exhaust. This makes sure that all water is removed from the system, and that the raw water pump is winterized. Is this what you did?
Another precaution that I took was to have the closed system coolant replaced, which must be done every few years. You did not mention whether you did this?
Tony
Stewart
The Sherwood is designed with two sets of seals with weep holes between. If the sea water side seal fails you should see a water drip that should be stopped by the oil side seal. If the oil side seal fails you should see an oil drip that is stopped by the sea water side seal. The seals are around the shaft behind the pump backing plate. All the sea water pressure should be going out the 3/4" output not trying to escape through the close tolerance shaft hole in the backing plate and 1/32" or so clearance between the shaft and the seal. I cannot imagine how both seals could fail with nothing visible from the weep holes and in 45 minutes produce the damage you have described.
While I totally symphathise with your plight, if that is what really happened it can only fall into the SH*T HAPPENS catagory.
Did a PO purposely close the weep holes so he didn't have to clean up a mess? Did a blockage in the seawater exhaust line force the water past the seals? Perhaps a second mechanics opinion is in order, I think there is more to the story.
Stewart : I believe it's time for you to call Joe Joyce Westerbeke Service Manager (Good Guy!) and let him know of your plight. (508)823-7677
I can't believe that the salt water in the engine oil came for the Sherwood pump!! Something else is going on and until you find out "what's happening"; I wouldn't do anything to that engine!! Good Luck
I have been around Universals for many years and have seen my share of pump water and oil seal failures, but in all cases the fluid escaped out the weep holes and just made a mess.
First thing I did after the incident was to have the dealer (one of the East Coast biggest and long time Catalina dealers) call Westerbeke on my behalf. Their answer was, "...the raw water pump..replace it with new and the injection pump may be hung up".... Shortly after that my mechanic independently found the cause to be the Raw Water Pump. Yesterday, I had an independent marine surveyor investigate the damage, cause and repair. He also came to the same conclusion .. the Raw water pump. I believe it. Now, it's true that after 10 years the weep holes look corroded and plugged to me which would explain no drips.
Water Pump replaced and installed, Fuel Injection Pump cleaned and rebuilt as necessary awaiting re-installatiuon, Valve cover removed and valve train inspected- still contaminated after 5 oil changes and filters. Boat now goes to work dock for complete engine flushing and inspection. Total repairs are "pending inspection" .
I understand S..T happens. I just wish that Universal, Westebeke, Hansen Marine or someone or something had put another caution label in the book or on the engine or sent a service bulletin (this is not the first failure of that pump) to inspect that pump every ...hrs and make sure the weep holes were clear.
Thinking seriously about GOLF.
Stewart : Thanks for the come back. Much to my disgust I have a Sherwood on my new engine (M25XPB), and noted over the years that the Sherwood has a cast iron section that contains the weep holes!!
This is definitely an item for the "Critical Items" listing.
Guess the only sure way of checking that those weep holes are clear, is to remove the entire pump from the engine when changing the impeller and look at them !?!
I did spray some BO-Shield on the outside of that iron body to keep the outside from rusting (as I've seen), but the rust problem is really from the inside.
Inspection is the only way to know. A few thoughts
The failed seals on my three Sherwood pumps have always been obvious when they first started leaking. Always rusty water drops under the front of the engine. Seems Like one would have to ignore that a long time in order for the weep holes to completely clog up with rust. I also have painted the the entire pump with the "blue" color of the M35B engine, which helps to see any rust stains emanating from the weep holes.
Jack
added to the Critical upgrade page on the wiki
Guys, Susan and D.Gill : Checking the raw water pump is critical.
All pumps have internal two lip seals. One seal keeps the oil in the engine and the other seal keeps the water in the raw water pump housing. In between these seals are two or more "weep holes". These weep holes are there to let you know when one of these seals are leaking.
M25 & M25XP engines : These engines usually have an Oberdorfer RW pump (some early models may have a Sherwood or a Johnson RW pump). The Oberdorfer (could be of a couple of models) has a entire bronze body with the weep holes in the center. There are two paper gaskets, a thick one on the engine side and a paper thin one the face plate over the impeller. The only time that I've experienced a oil side lip seal leaking is because it was cocked when installed. The water lip seal usually only last about 200 hours, because the raw water isn't as good a lubricant as the oil is for the oil lip seal. To replace the water side lip seal you need to also remove and replace the oil seal as well. There are a number of Mainsheet tech note articles on this topic.
Also here: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6766.0.html [Stu - 1/25/15]
When the water side lip seal starts to leak you'll find raw water from the bottom weep hole leaking and running down the starboard front side of the engine. This water especially if it's saline will rust out the oil pan, so vigilance is needed to catch the dripping early on. The body being bronze will show signs of green corrosion.
M35A & M35B engines : These engines have a Sherwood raw water pumps. The Sherwood's also come in a couple of models. The bodies of this pump are not all bronze and as Stewart found out can and will have the weep holes rust shut. The Sherwood does have brass/bronze plates that are on each end of the cast iron body, but essentially the same innard components as the Oberdorfer. Sherwood's generally use "0" rings to seal the brass/bronze plates rather than paper gaskets, but the gasket that attaches it to the engine is "paper". The weeping from a Sherwood is caused by the same problems as the Oberdorfer - wear.
Engine Manufactures tend to favor the Sherwood over the Oberdorfer, because it pumps more water volume (larger pump housing, and impeller diameter). The Sherwood has double+ the impeller blades of the Oberdorfer.
A few thoughts
Ron,
I just pulled this off of the Sherwood Raw Water Pump thread as Craig posted it to show the Sherwood pump parts schematic. Looks to me there is a gasket beetween the wear plate and the pump body which is what I found, I believe. I suppose there's another one if you take the whole pump body off the engine. Or am I missing something yet again...Craig?
Hawk
This shows a parts breakdown: http://www.marinedieseldirect.com/catalogs/catalog_group.php?owner=mdd&page_ident=200142-58&model=M-25%20/%20M-25XP%20/%20M-25XPA&manufacturer=Universal&title=Sherwood%20Water%20Pump%20-%20New%20-%20302648&quant_position=&catalog=200142&printparts=200142&printservice=200151&printoperators=200157&comment1=This%20pump%20is%20no%20longer%20available%20as%20a%20complete%20stand%20alone%20pump%20unit%20(302648%20-%20NLA).%20%20Use%20this%20diagram%20to%20order%20replacement%20parts%20for%20this%20pump.%20%20To%20replace%20this%20pump,%20order%20kit%20number%20302837(kit%20includes%20a%20replacement%20pump).
Hawk : You are absolutely correct that item #18 on that model Sherwood is a gasket.
Never make generalities about anything, where Catalina is concerned !!