One project I wish I would have completed is thru bolting the traveler. yesterday while running down wind the traveler pulled completely out on an accidental Jibe.
For those with the early MK1 You will want to check to see if you are thru bolted!!!
I did a search and was looking for some detail from someone who has thru bolted.
Looking for some detail on the size bolts used and drill bit sizes and any other detail on this project.
Thanks Rick
Rich, I am so sorry for your loss.
In answer to your question, I just did a search on "traveler bolts" and found these:
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4935.0.html
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,3830.0.html
They make reference to the Knowledgebase, here: http://www.c34.org/tech-notes-index/index.htm (http://www.c34.org/tech-notes-index/index.htm%20 )
Steve Lyle's "My First Year Weblog" covers many important issues for owners of older boats, and is almost a checklist of what to look out for that may require immediate upgrades if the PO or POs did not perform that work. See: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,663.0.html
I also recommend doing a search on "Weblog" and read the others provided by Steve and Kyle Ewing, very helpful summaries.
"The Guide..." (http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,2629.0.html) which we've kept as a sticky, points to all of the voluminous "stuff" we've captured here. We also recognize that the sheer volume can be daunting, and tried to cover that in "Too Much Information..." which you can also find.
The new WIKI provides a different way to find information: like a Table of Contents approach instead of the searches which work like a book index.
And the newer CRITICAL UPGRADES topic is invaluable to those of you with older boats. http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5078.0.html (http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5078.0.html)
My answer is to ADD the new bolts, and NOT use them to replace the old ones. While you didn't say how bad the damage was to the fiberglass, we trust it's not too bad.
PS - The reason I've gone into all this detail again is NOT to "make" everyone search for stuff, really! It is, rather, to indicate to you we DO understand there's so much material available, & we know you can't read it all. But there are many different ways that we've tried to be able to give you "highlights" like the Weblogs independently provided by skippers, the Tech Notes Index both on the TNO pages and in this MB (http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,3096.0.html), the Tech Notes Online themselves, the new WIKI, and Jon Schneider's Knowledgebase. There have been a number of "Top Ten Lists" published, here and in Mainsheet.
And I have probably been the worst at spelling traveler over the years: traveller! Two L's don't make it right, and make it harder to do a search, so Mom may have been right all along about "spelling counts!" :D
Stu,
Thanks for the threads and how I can improve searching skills.
I will be using all new bolts and I will call Catalina tommorrow and order the bolts as you cannot find 9" at the local hardware. I have four per side. If the bolts are not threaded in the top end that goes thru the plate I will tap those so it can grab the plate as well.
I picked up the 1.5" washers, 1/4" #20 nuts and lock washers, finishing acorns along with the 3/8 x 12" drill bit. Going to drill going thru the top into the cabin with the 3/8 bit to save the threads on the plate and then a 1/4" bit thru from underneath so everthing should line up.
I do have some minor glass work on the top of the box. And well re-bed to prevent leaks.
Stu, again thanks for all your support as I have said before the best investment I have made for the boat is this site.
Rick
Rick -
I recently tried to preserve the treads in the plates when installing thru-bolts in my new traveler and ran into a problem. When I used a 12" bit that would go through the 1/4" treaded holes in the plates without touching the threads, I found that the bit was prone to bend when drilling through into the cabin. When I used a 1/4" bit drilling up from inside the cabin, it looked like the holes lined up perfectly, but when I tried to screw in the bolt from the top, it did not line up close enough for the bolt to go through to the cabin. The only solution I had was to give up on preserving the treads in the plates and to use a 12" 1/4' bit from the top all the way into the cabin. After I re-drilled the holes with the 1/4" bit, the starboard hole lined up with the first hole I made while the port side hole came out about 5/16" away from the first hole.
By the way, I was unable to get bolts from Catalina and got them from Garhauer instead. Although I asked for 9" bolts, Garhauer made 9 1/2" bolts which worked out perfectly as 9" would not have been long enough on either side. I trimmed the bolts to the exact lenght I needed with a Dremel tool and the 1.5" washer covered the extra hole perfectly.
- Gary -
Ron,
You and rest of the association do a great job in getting the word out. I had read
sometime ago about the possible failure of the traveler and I should have done project earlier my fault!! When I posted I was out on a trip and did not have the CD and could not remember my login info for the Tech notes and was hoping to repair in the port I was at and continue on while sailing. I plan on down loading the CD and storing the login info on my lap top. I also plan on spending some time to work on my searching skills as i did search but some how did not come up with the threads I was looking for I am sure that was due to again my error .
Your and others contributions are an invaluable resource to me and other 34 owners and would like to thanks you and all the other contributors for the information that is here for us.
Gary,
Thanks for the heads up on using the 1/4" x 12" bit and going to Garhauer for the 9.5 bolts.
Rick
Quote from: Ron Hill on July 05, 2009, 05:32:16 PM
Rick : I've been trying to put out the word for over 20 years thur the Mainsheet tech notes and the internet this past 12 years. It really makes me feel like all my and other contributers efforts, are for nought - when you read about a preventable failure (like Dave Ewings article in Nov 1997) !!!
Let me ask you a question? How can we get the word out to all of the present and prospective C34 owners that 99% of all of the C34 questions HAVE ALREADY BEEN ANSWERED !!
It's been written up and all owners have to do is some reading. :cry:
Please give me an in site into how to better get the word out ??? :donno:??
Ron, this is message board. People come here and ask questions and have discussions. It's an interactive forum. It's great that they talk about traveller bolts and other issues. It's fantastic reminder for the tech note that has already been published. The goal is not to answer 100% of the questions and then turn off the posting switch. The question has been answered. And every time it gets answered again, somebody else gets reminded of the problem and somebody else solved the problem in a different way and enhance the value of the orginal answer. The Bible was written, but people still go to church even if it is the same old information. Don't beat them about the head for not reading the bible. Ask them to come in and enjoy the service.
Ron, you asked:
Let me ask you a question? How can we get the word out to all of the present and prospective C34 owners that 99% of all of the C34 questions HAVE ALREADY BEEN ANSWERED !!
It's been written up and all owners have to do is some reading. :cry:
Please give me an in site into how to better get the word out ??? :donno:??
[/quote]
As a new owner of the older C34, I find this forum essential.
One idea for how to alert new owners of "critical" or key issues might be to add a section in the wiki called: "Critical Upgrades" or "Critical Repairs" and then catagories these by model.
Adding this to the wiki would make it easy to find and would allow links to the forum posting, projects, page, etc.
As a new owner who has not had the opprotunity to have read 20 years of Mainsheet articles, this would be great help and a way for you all who know all the issues to flag them.
I find the Forum great for finding anwser to problems after to they have happened or when I suspect something. Problem is, I don't always know what problems are waiting to happen!
If you all think adding a "Critical Upgrades" (or what it could be called) is a good idea, I'd be willing to help in what ever way I can.
- Walt
I bought my 1990 34 over 2 years ago. I joined this association almost as soon as I bought the boat and regularly read this web site. I have gotten a great deal of valuable information here. Almost all of my sailing is offshore and I am very concerned with safety issues about my boat. However, the first time I heard or read anything about thru bolting the traveler was when I read this post. Although I have read a lot of the tech notes, I missed the one about the traveler. I appreciate Rick informing me of this issue by his post.
Walt : Your point is well taken that we do need a "Critical update" section.
The traveler bolt update really only applies to the 1986 and some 1987 C34s. All subsequent production have those bolts.
Here's another critical "early model upgrade" -- There are probably still some 1986 C34 owners out there that still have the "over the top" alternator adjusting bracket (M25 engine - about 275 hulls) that can and will break!! This broken bracket has been known to puncture the oil filter!! As one of this message board's frequent contributers can attest to!!
Now if we can only get ALL of the almost 1100 hulls (1986-1991) to install the Wiring Harness Upgrade (Fire Hazard - BIG TIME) !!
Your suggestion is well taken. :thumb:
CRITICAL UPGRADES
see: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5078.0.html
Thanks, Walt, for the idea.
BTW, the PURPOSE of the WIKI is to allow YOU to add these kinds of things. The WIKI does not require "programming" skills, so, please, have at it and contribute to the C34 Knowledgebase. "We" - your C34 Officers - don't "RUN" this Message Board or website, it is from "the contributions from people like you" that this all works.
Your questions prompt replies and answers. That's what this website is all about. We just "keep" the answers around (we think sometimes maybe better than others) to be able to point you in the right direction, and we always find something new thanks to all of your contributions.
For George and Walt: "As a new owner who has not had the opportunity to have read 20 years of Mainsheet articles, this would be great help and a way for you all who know all the issues to flag them."
The answer to that one, as I noted above, is to READ, at least, the topics in the Tech Notes, which are posted on this Message Board, here (again): http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,3096.0.html If you read the "Headlines" you may then become aware of "issues" we have discovered and resolved. You can also use Jon Schneider's tremendous "Knowledgebase" spreadsheet, easily found by clicking on C34 Tech Notes at the top of this page. Download it, print it out and you will also have a LIST of "issues" to deal with.
You may also want to continue to check the STICKIES on the top of the MB list of topics, including "The Guide..." which explains what we have to offer.
Don't know what more we can do...
I find this conversation quite interesting since I just replace my traveler with the new Garhauer just about three years ago. This is the first I'm hearing about it. At the time I didn't come across any posts about needed to drill holes and thru bolt. Guido at Garhauer even told me to check carfully on the measurments for where the screw holes needed to be drilled in the new traveler. I now have a new project. Having a critical update section would be great. Or a method that new posts about a traveler would automatically link to the critical update.
Quote from: Paul Blumenfeld on July 07, 2009, 08:59:06 PM
I find this conversation quite interesting since I just replace my traveler with the new Garhauer just about three years ago. This is the first I'm hearing about it. At the time I didn't come across any posts about needed to drill holes and thru bolt.... Or a method that new posts about a traveler would automatically link to the critical update.
Paul, the November
1988 Mainsheet magazine had the article. It is listed in the Mainsheet Tech Notes Index on the Tech Notes Online page AND in the Mainsheet Index For You to Copy topic that I have posted and updated on this board.
You must realize, please, that the automation of this board to "ring-ding" and automatically link to subjects with disclaimers and links and warnings is NOT the purpose of this message board. The MB is to ask questions and get answers.
We have done everything conceivably possible to alert you and explain how to find information, including responding within 24 hours to Walt's suggestion for "critical upgrades." Right here on this MB. This is a volunteer organization, and we strive to offer you the information you need.
It's all there. Each of you, individually, have to read it, because we simply can't do that for you. We've given you many different methods, and no one is suggesting you try to read 22 years worth detailed material plus this MB, but, heck, please at least read "the headlines." Please. For instance, we don't know what POs of your early boats have done, only YOU do.
My PO, who was meticulous, did the wiring harness but NOT the alternator bracket or the thru bolts. How did I know about these things, like 10 years ago, before this board? I read the material. And this was before this MB. He'd kindly provided me with the copies of all the Mainsheet magazines since 1987. So, I contributed to the Association by actually creating the Index, which we then grew into the Tech Notes Online (available to C34IA members) AND the Index here (free for everybody).
A lot of these may be considered safety issues, and as such they remain the skipper's responsibility to do what is necessary, as he or she sees fit. We share information, we don't presume to assume the responsibility for you and your boat.
Stu,
I'll add a "Critical Updates" section for the Tech Notes Menu I'm building.
If you can send me some topics and links, I'll make sure they get added.
Bob
Stu,
I'm not complaining at all. Just agreeing that a critical update section would be beneficial for those of us who have recently purchased the boat and just don't have the time to read ALL the available information.
The information on the site is great those most responsible for maintaining it are greatly appreciated! There is a wealth of information and I've learned a lot from this web site and organization!
My comment was only to agree with the need, or convenience, of having a critical updates section. I'm not expecting someone else to be responsible for maintaining my boat. Having a critical updates section would just greatly assist me in doing that. The section should be very brief saying DO THIS OR ELSE.... It doesn't need to rehash the details but can just list the known issues and where to find additional detailed information that already exists.
When deciding on the traveler upgrade I did do several searches on the web site. The message threads I reviewed didn't mention the thu bolt issue, just that it was a great use of boat $$$.
Quote from: Bob Kuba on July 08, 2009, 04:12:30 PM
Stu,
I'll add a "Critical Updates" section for the Tech Notes Menu I'm building.
If you can send me some topics and links, I'll make sure they get added.
Bob
Bob,
I started one here: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5078.0.html
Paul, Thanks so much for your thoughtful reply. We have responded to that idea and since I posted the "Critical Upgrades" topic (http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5078.0.html) last week, no one has added to it! Interesting. I think the difference in your case may well be in either search terms used (traveler bolts, but traveler should have picked those topics up) or spelling (traveller vs. traveler).
In the second link I found from the search I did in reply to this topic, as discussed in Reply #2 of this very topic, I quoted Dave Ewing who had written: As it turned out it wasn't controlled enough as the port side traveler mount pulled out from its mounting tower, twisting the starboard bronze backing plate completely out through the fiberglass. The halyards that pass through the line organizers on the underside of the traveler were the only thing holding the whole assembly from flying into the air. We managed to lash down the boom to the cabin top winches and take down the main sail and regain control, but as you would say, "It really got our attention."
I'm not quite sure that that wasn't simply "a good $$" but rather something pretty important. The links to the Knowledgebase have been discussed.
Your points are well taken, and we've responded as best we could to alert folks to issues, and, hopefully, the "Critical Upgrades" topic will help, too. I've also modified the "Critical Upgrades" to add your suggestion of "Do This Or Else" - thanks again.
If there are any other "Critical Upgrades" that folks think are necessary, please feel free to add to that topic.
I'm replacing my traveler track and upgrading the cars and blocks. During the installation I'm finally thru-bolting the traveler track. I purchased the longer bolts (screws) and they measure about 10 1/2 inches. I was planning on putting them thru the most outboard holes at both ends in the traveler track. Has anyone drilled thru that hole and thru bolted? I'm a little concerned the bolts may not be long enough. How thick is the deck generally in that area? I realize every layup may be a little different. I'll be checking location using a trick a boat tech taught me of using two rare earth magnets on either side of the deck. They will center up on each other even thru 3/4 to 1" thickness.
Thanks for the input on the hole location. BTW, I'm not trying to save the threads in the embedded plate. The threads on the bolts I got don't run the entire length so there is no need to save the threads on the insert.
John
1. Why are you replacing the track?
2. Bolts: It is my understanding that you only need the long through-bolts for each end of the track and that the rest of the bolts are short and thread into the aluminum plate that is " buried" in the traveller tower.
The PO purchased the incorrect traveler upgrade from Catalina Direct for the existing track. The new cars and ends didn't fit the old Nico Ficro track. I got the new track from Garhauer.
I'm not thru bolting all of the screws, just one on each side. My question is are 10 1/2 inch screws long enough to go thru the track, the riser and the deck at the most outboard existing screw hole? The curvature of the deck makes that a pretty long penetration to get through the ceiling at that hole.
Quote from: Oldlaxer1 on February 08, 2021, 05:43:41 AM
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During the installation I'm finally thru-bolting the traveler track. I purchased the longer bolts (screws) and they measure about 10 1/2 inches. I was planning on putting them thru the most outboard holes at both ends in the traveler track. Has anyone drilled thru that hole and thru bolted? I'm a little concerned the bolts may not be long enough. How thick is the deck generally in that area? I realize every layup may be a little different. I'll be checking location using a trick a boat tech taught me of using two rare earth magnets on either side of the deck. They will center up on each other even thru 3/4 to 1" thickness.
Thanks for the input on the hole location. BTW, I'm not trying to save the threads in the embedded plate. The threads on the bolts I got don't run the entire length so there is no need to save the threads on the insert.
John
John,
In the first two links of mine in reply #1 on this thread, on page one, I wrote:
"My answer is to ADD the new bolts, and NOT use them to replace the old ones. "Michael, yes I did that mod, but we used the existing Garhauer track. My records show that I used the same "1/4-20 X 9 inch long flat head SS screw" from Catalina. I did not have to remove the track, since I was using the existing one, so I was able to leave the existing two original screws (tapped into the molded in plate, most likely) in place. I just drilled the two new holes with a very long drill bit I picked up at Ace Hardware through another bolt hole in the existing track inboard of the existing two screws.I'm sure you've read those links, they have a lot of details of what I did.
That means they got installed (by me) on one of the more inside of the holes. That seems it was because the outer two holes were the ones into the embedded track. I do NOT know this for sure, only going with what I wrote over the years since I did the work in 1999!!!
In looking at some pictures of when I rebedded the track in 2018, it appears I used two different holes, one three holes in, one four holes in, from the edge. Those are the long bolts standing up in the pictures. One shows the shorter screw laying on the flat.
I did that long-bolt work pre-digital cameras, so don't have jpegs of that original work.
In one of my writeups of the work, in one of those two links I included earlier here on page one, I noted where they came out on the port side, close by the bulkhead to the head.
My bolts were nine or nine and a half inches. I don't know if a 10 1/2" bolt would work on the outermost hole.
What I would do is find out which of the holes actually have the embedded plate and do them inboard of that. Instructions may also be in Jim Moe's original article, although IIRC his writeup was for a C30 but written for C34s also (he owned both boats or was in a club with both).
Good luck. That's a neat trick you described.
I also encourage the use of butyl tape under the track.
Well I'm going to try to go thru the outboard holes once the weather warms up enough to melt the snow and ice on the boat. If the purchased screws turn out to not be long enough I have a plan B ready to go. I'll get some 1/4 20 316 stainless all thread 18" long from McMaster Carr and appropriate acorn nuts. I'll counter bore the hole in the traveler deep enough to accept the acorn nut and then can cut the all thread to the proper length in the cabin. I just wish it would warm up so I can complete this project.