This is an unabashed endorsement of Ron Hill's glow plug solenoid write-up (http://www.c34.org/projects/projects-glowplugs.html). Granted, I made a lot of changes to my 12v system over the winter "break," including installing an AGM (Optima) starting battery under the aft berth along with beefy 4/0 gauge wire, but I can't believe what a difference shortening the circuit has made to starting. Definitely do this.
BTW, Ron points out that you need to upgrade the wiring to #8 (from the puny #12 that was OEM for my 1990 boat). I actually went to #6. With my new starting battery switch inside the aft berth entryway, I have about four feet of 4/0 cable from the start battery to the switch and then about two feet back of #6 to the solenoid, and another eight inches to the first glow plug from the solenoid. I started the engine for the first time in four months on Friday in 40 degree weather. Before the upgrades (and clearly the new, starting-specific battery is a contributing factor), it would take me between :40 and :50 of glow plug energization before the engine would start. The first time, I tried it after :30, and the engine started immediately. The next day, a touch warmer in the mid 40s, I tried the engine after :15 and it again started instantly (much faster than even :50's worth of glow would give me last year). I can't wait to see how little pre-heat I need to use. If you haven't done this upgrade, I highly recommend it. It's not too hard, pretty cheap, and incredibly satisfying to know your engine will start with the touch of a button. Thanks Ron.
What type of solenoid did you use?
I was lazy and stupid... I had read Ron's Project article a year or two ago, and had wanted to do this upgrade ever since, so when I was browsing the aisles of a local WM, I bought a ridiculously over-priced Cole Hersee solenoid (the 24117-01 at http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/producte/10001/-1/10001/16222/377%20710/0/solenoid/Primary%20Search/mode%20matchallpartial/0/0?N=377%20710&Ne=0&Ntt=solenoid&Ntk=Primary%20Search&Ntx=mode%20matchallpartial&Nao=0&Ns=0&keyword=solenoid&isLTokenURL=true&storeNum=5002&subdeptNum=9&classNum=119) Both Ron and Tom Soko (on the C36 site) offer lower-cost alternatives. I just knew that if I bought the thing, I'd eventually install it. Really glad I did.
We used a Wells #F496, all of $7.57 in 1999. It's still working. Got it at a Kragen's Auto Parts store.
I also believe that Captain Al Watson (#55 Kindred Spirit, now Dave Commando's boat) wrote that article, with Ron's additional comments and a sketch of the wiring that we contributed.
Ron's suggestion was to ground the base of the solenoid by moutning it right on the engine; we chose to mount it above the engine underneath the wooden molding, so had to run a separate ground wire to the engine in addition to the solenoid connections.
Oops, you're right as usual Stu. Apologies to you and Capt. Al (wherever he may be). I'll bet your $7.57 solenoid isn't nearly as high-tech and artistic looking as my $49 one :cry4` Plus, mine's got a cool, northern European-sounding brand name. I'm sure it's added well over $50 re-sale value to my heap 8)
Jon - You have to keep it in perspective. Even $100 would be cheap, if starting your engine 30 seconds faster keeps you off a reef.
My 1 cent..........
You're absolutely right, Craig. The smile on my face when I started the engine up in :15 was worth every cent to me. There was a day last December in the low 40s when I really had a hard time starting her up as I was coming home; somehow every problem/issue seems worse in the Northeast on a cold December day.
Heck, Jon, if you're sailing in December, things are good!
Last I heard Captain Al and Michelle bought a Catalina / Morgan 43 and were still active in LISCA, he was commodore for a while. Reminds me I have to get in touch with him.
Isn't fast (and regular, consistent) starting a dream?!?
Fast starting is a total dream! It's such a comfort to know that you can turn the key after a few seconds and there's power to spare. That's exactly why I had to write up my feelings originally. All that said, I actually have to force myself to run the diesel long enough to get to operating temp.; otherwise, it's all about hoisting the canvas asap!
Stu,
Captain Al did buy a Morgan 43 and they are very active in LISCA, saw them last weekend at a West Marine discount sale for LISCA members.
Joe Nalley
Allegro 415
Quote from: Stu Jackson on March 25, 2008, 01:50:58 PM
Heck, Jon, if you're sailing in December, things are good!
Last I heard Captain Al and Michelle bought a Catalina / Morgan 43 and were still active in LISCA, he was commodore for a while. Reminds me I have to get in touch with him.
Isn't fast (and regular, consistent) starting a dream?!?
:D
Stu, I did a search on boat upgrades last week & hit on Captain Al's Morgan 43. He must have 10 or 12 major projects he has done to the 43. Projects are fantastic, must be 300 pictures or more. I tried the sugar scoop on my 34 when the kids were little, but I didn't like the way it looked. The markI is too narrow in the stern, so I scrapped the project. On Al's 43 it looks good. Check out Al's new projects.
link to Capt Al's page: http://kindred-spirit.net/index2.html
Guys : When I did that glow plug modification over 12 years ago (& the article); the difference in price between Ford truck solenoid and a marine grade one was less than $10 !!!
Think that you'll find that 10 seconds does the job of heating up the cylinders.
My Ford truck solenoid is still "keeps-on-a-trucking" and continues to the job to date !!
I ended up loosing my battery charger (Charles 30) and my wiring harness (engine) at least at the cockpit/engine panel side this weekend. :cry4`
I was also looking up the wiring harness/Solenoid upgrades. Found Capt Al's and stumbled upon his newest toy. Where does that guy find all of the time to do those projects, I'm guessing not tied up with soccer, softball and those "kids" sports. That new rear scoop looks really nice.
Anyway I bought the wire today for the upgrade from West Marine (ouch) and guess I'll be picking up the Ford Solenoid that'll leave the resale value to Jon! :think :thumb:
Quote from: mnewber on March 31, 2008, 08:38:50 PM
I ended up loosing my battery charger (Charles 30) and my wiring harness (engine) at least at the cockpit/engine panel side this weekend.
That's a shame about your battery charger. Which one are you going to replace it with?
What do you mean that you lost your wiring harness at the engine panel? It burned up? It corroded away? You weren't replacing all of those wires individually at WM, were you? You can get a whole new harness from Seaward for about $50. If something happened to the wires at the panel side, check carefully that it's in the harness. The problem certainly could be in the connector, but I suspect that it would more likely be the hot alternator charging wire at the ignition switch itself. You could fix this by simply cutting the orange wire that connects the alternator to the engine-side of the harness, and connect that pigtail to the starter engine; thus bypassing the panel altogether (which is how it should have been designed in the first place).
BTW, the absolute best place in North America (at least that I've found) to buy wire is bestboatwire.com. I've mentioned this a few times, so it'll probably sound like I have a vested interest in the place, but I don't. Whatever you bought at WM can be purchased for 1/3rd of the price or less at bbw. Unfortunately, they only sell some smaller gauge wire in 100' spools, but even that is an incredible bargain. I needed 15' of blue-coated #12 wire recently. bbw's price for a 100' spool was nearly the same as what WM was going to charge for 15'. (Anybody need 85' of blue-coated #12 :wink:)
Battery Charger:
Not sure yet, i'm looking for inverter/charger to replace it but don't want to dump my a$$. Thinking about a used Heart 1000 that is local for $100 with the 2000 panel.
Wire Harness:
Not sure to the extent on the damage on the wire harness at the engine panel. It is burnt so I am leaning now towards the Hot wire you mention. I haven't had a chance to check behind the panel to the "wire plug" and in the port lazertte there is a divider protecting the panel. So this weekend or if I get off one of these days early i can check it. The more i think of it it sounds like the hot wire. The lower harness plugs by engine are perfect. Also trying to get ahold of Seaward to get the replacement engine panel while i'm at it.
Wires:
TOO LATE!!!!!!! :cry4` :cry4` :cry4` I forked over my a$$ to WestMarine yesterday. :banghead So I could have used some of that #12 Blue but you told me too late.
I'm also going to look to Seaward for the interior panel so that site may still come in handy in the future. I seem to have a hot short somewhere in my system. When i have the cabin lights and the running lights on together the circut breakers get hot to the touch. I found one thread where it sounds as if those two circuts share a common ground. So i'll check that first.
So at the end of the day Sunday i walked away from with the boat with three projects and none of them completed!!!
mnewber,
You wrote: "The lower harness plugs by engine are perfect."
If you still have the plugs and not the new "EURO-STRIP" connector, that may be your issue. One of the problems associated with the old system was exactly that: the plugs. As noted many times in discussions about the old wiring harness, the plugs can look fine on the outside and be rotted on the inside.
If it was my boat, I'd take every one apart and check them out, especially at the engine end.
One of our members did the harness upgrade and didn't use the Euro-strip, but connected each of the wires together. Many ways to do it.
I assume you've read the wiring harness post in Projects: http://www.c34.org/projects/projects-harness-upgrade.html
Stu thanks i agree, from the outside they look perfect. I've been to WM and got gouged on the replacement wires going to do the run that Capt Al outlined in his upgrade section for his old 34. So now if I can get some time away from work it's the re-wire and solenoid project. I also have to replace all the wires running at the engine panel as well. :thumb:
Thanks!
Mark
so Sunday's project was to install the glow plug solenoid and also check the rubber wire harness plugs.
I completed the solenoid install and got the engine started. All good! (So to disclose a novice mistake) the first take on the wiring from the starter to the soloeniod i had the wires on the wrong post, Forgot I had it mounted upside down so change the wires around and it started. Then came the engine panel inspection and wire harness plug inspection. As mentioned before the red and orange wires at the key switch were burning so I cut them back and attached a new set of terminals and re-attached. Then checked the plugs on both ends and they look pretty good (only 600 hours on engine so not a lot of use).
I then went back up to start the engine and it won't turn over the starter won't turn. I can hear the solenoid still click when the key is turned to glow but when I press the start button i just get a buzzer sounding off. I tested the started soleniod with the old screw driver across the terms and that turns it over.
And BTW, the local auto parts store now gets about $23 for the ford soleniod.
I know this is a shot in the dark but any ideas? I've checked all the connections and they seem to be all still attached.
Thanks!
Run a separate wire from the switch (button) to the starter. The solenoid glow plug should have nothing to do with the starter. Running a separate wire helps to assure that the wiring bundle isn't an issue and that the button still works. It could still be the old "good lookin' from the outside" harness plugs. Don't say we didn't try to warn you.
Stu, I think when Mark talks about connecting the starter to the solenoid, he's just tapping into the common power lead in the most convenient spot.
Mark, I wonder if the panel fuse blew? I know you get a warning buzzer, but I'm not sure if everything is wired through that fuse. Also, I hate to ask it, but are you sure you connected the new terminals to the right leads on the ignition switch? BTW, you've got to bypass that orange wire, which charges the battery from the alternator or you're going to have the same problem again. It's a big part of the reason for the harness upgrade (the connector plugs being the other reason, but having had the same burnt wires you had at the switch, I think the alternator wire bypass is the more important change).
Other than checking the fuse and the connections, I suppose the next step is for you to make sure the red lead is getting power at the switch (e.g., use a testing light or a voltmeter). If you're getting power, then the problem is in the key switch (either mechanically or with the terminals). BTW, how did you check the harness connectors? Did you pull them apart? Could your inspection have damaged the connection?
Mark,
My 1989 (#918) had 435 hours on the engine when the harness plugs shorted out last year. My point is, I think age and corrosion have a lot more to do with the potential problem than engine hours.
My advise is get rid of the plugs. Like Stu says, you have been warned.
I am damn lucky to still have my boat.
When I get time I am going to do a complete writeup with pictures of the melted mess which happened 8 miles out of the marina.
Steve
There is an inline fuse right at the starter solenoid. Check that first.
Mike
Thanks everyone! A good list to get started with.
Jon, i pulled them apart, you're entirely correct in that they could be damaged! Replaced the new leads to the same terminal they came off of.
Stu/Steve warning noted! i've got the wires to replace the entire run just need the time prior to going out on the water. :thumb:
Good news is I was able to get the Garhauer rigid vang installed yesterday! At least that's out of the way, now i need to be able to start up the engine, ensure that the wiring doesn't burn down the boat and I think we are good. with that project at least.
thanks again! i'll post up after i get a chance to inspect fruther.
Mark, that should be easy enough to check with a testing light. But I really think Mike's hit the nail on the head. Every time I monkey in the engine compartment, I see that in-line fuse and try to remind myself that someday that might be a culprit, and that I must try to remember its existence. The other thing is, go ahead and change those plugs right now. There's about a foot of extra wire in the old harness, so you won't even have to change the harness wires (but make sure of this extra length before you snip). A local electrical supply store should have a terminal strip. If you look on page 723 of the McMaster-Carr catalogue (www.mcmaster.com), you'll find a product called "Touch-Safe Terminal Blocks." That's what Seaward provides in their harness upgrade package. Get the 12-gang .39" version (all of $4 each); you need two. Good luck.
Thanks again! I checked the fuse when i first had the crossed wires and it was good. I did not check it on the second go round! Good reminder Mike/Jon. The touch safe strips I saw yesterday at radio shack when i was looking for some parts for my motorcycle HID headlight project but they were the smallest ones. I went to lowes and they didn't have them. I may either order from McMaster or look at a local elecrtric shop to see.
Thanks!
I had problems with my starter last time I was at the boat. Engine started fine at the dock,went out sailing for a few hours, went to start the engine and nothing. (Good thing I had practiced docking under sail) After getting back in, I called my trusty mechanic and he recommend checking the inline fuse. The fuse was not blown but the fuse holder seemed loose, as it was turning freely on the wire. I opened it up. cleaned all metal contacts with a dremel tool, put it all back together and it worked!
There was no obvious corrosion but I think something was loose in the fuse holder itself, possibly the spring that keeps tension between the fuse and the metal contacts on the wire.
BTW, the mechanic said that that fuse and it's holder is the cause of starter problems 90% of the time!
Hope your resolution is this simple.
Mike
Mike : I believe that this same problem has come up a number of times. I wrote it up in the early 1990s in the Mainsheet Tech notes.
The sure check (if the engine won't crank) is to take a screwdriver to the starter solenoid post and then touch the engine block at the same time. If you hear the starter crank, you've got a dead fuse or a bad connection "quote from the old Tech Notes".
Great stuff has been written in the Mainsheet, but only if it's read!!
Mark,
You can also get a 12 position 30 amp insulated terminal strip similar to what Jon talked about from Mouser electronics ( www.mouser.com). Their part number is 538-39100-1012, and they cost $3.26 each. They are on page 1440 of the current catalog. They also have a 40 amp version for slightly less money ( $3.02 ) - go figure! This type of terminal strip is commonly referred to as a "Eurostyle" terminal strip.
John
Another one bites the dust. Euro plugs picked up at Radio Shack inserted, cleaned fuze and "BOOM BABY" it starts! so solonoid and wire harness upgrade behind me! :clap
It was tough it was blowing like stink here today and about 85 degrees! Maybe tomorrow.
Thanks all! :thumb: