I am about ready to spring for a heater for the boat (admiral says about time!) and spent some time at the Seattle boat show yesterday doing research. One thing most dealers said was that I needed a separate pipe from the fuel tank to serve the heater only. The Racor filter has an additiional outlet I could easily connect to. I am not wild about drilling a new hole in my fuel tank, which is plastic by the way.
Thought I would check to see if any of you out there have connected a diesel heater to your fuel filter or directly tee'd into the fuel line to run yout heater, and if so, have there been any problems. Would also like to know if you have, what type and size of heater you have.
It does not seem to me that these small heaters with the small amount of fuel they sip, that they could cause a problem pulling fuel out of the line going to the engine, especially considering that the fuel will gravity flow to the Racor as the entire fuel tank is higher than the filter in my boat.
Jack
Jack:
I installed a Webasto 3500 unit last year. Works great by the way. We were out between Christmas and New Years. Snow on the mountains. Ice on the docks. Toasty warm inside.
I looked at Webasto and Espar and was unable to really distinguish much of a difference between the two units. Webasto seemed to do a much better job of kitting all the bits needed for a do it yourself installation and so I went with them. No regrets. Works great.
I heard the same thing about a separate fuel pick up. Seems to me they probably have a reason for suggesting it and so I went with their recommendation. I installed a separate fuel pick up direct from the tank. It is a five minute job. Cut the pick up to length, drill hole in tank with hole saw, insert pick up and tighten the nuts.
Steve
On Latitudes, 2004 #1678, we installed an Espar Hydronic D5. The Esapar is mounted under rear port lazarette and the tank is mounted on the outdoor shower faucet bulkhead. Fuel is drawn from the main tank fuel line. We have one main heater in the cabin which is mounted in the middle of the the port settee, halfway up from the floor. We cut two 4" holes in the immediate lockers to increase air flow to the fan. Make sure all your heaters have adequate ventilation or the fans will cavitate. When securing to fiberglasss or wood, I suggest a rubber washer with each mounting screw.
Second heater is mounted in the V berth area at the same height and to the right of the little door and has it's own switch.
The third heater (for aft cabin) is mounted under the head sink with one duct to the head and the other to the aft cabin. The switch for this one is mounted on the engine cover bulkhead, just above the HX zinc!
Was down to the boat today and cranked it up to max and it quickly heats up the boat. Run it at least once a month throughout the year. Changing coolant is not required as per dealer. This puppy has given us faithful service for four years and is hoooked up to heat the water heater as well!!
Steve,
Thank you for the reply. I assume your tank is alumunum based on the year of your boat. Were you concerned at all about the metal particles getting into the tank while drilling the hole?
Jack
Canuck,
Did you just tee off your fuel line or bring the new line from your Racor fuel filter? If you have been using the heater for 4 years I assume you have had both engine and heater running at the same time with no problems. also interested how the system is connected the the hot water heater. Did you just connect it up to the engine/waterheater loop or did you disconnect the engine loop and just hook up the hydronic heater.
Thanks, Jack
Jack - the tank was aluminum. I wasn't concerned about particles in the tank - and I'm sure there are a few at the bottom no matter how careful I was - I just ran the shop vac and the drill together. No evidence of anything in the filter. I don't lose any sleep. I'm sure there some who will tell you it's very bad and risky thing to do and others who will say it's no problem. Plastic - I don't really know. As a lighter material, it probably has a greater chance of becoming semi-suspended in the diesel and being sucked up a pickup, but I doubt if there is any risk of it cutting through a filter element.
My guess is that the fuel system on our boats is robust and you probably won't have an issue taking the second tap off the Racor. If there is a problem, then you can always do a separate pickup later. What would be the downside in trying it?
Seeing canuck's post, I realized I don't know what kind of "heater" you're thinking of. I installed a forced air furnace. Low cost - big ducts. Canuck is talking about hydronic system with piped hot water to individual radiator elements with fans. Easier routing hose than duct, plus you can create hot water on the hook without running the engine. Either system would be great - it just depends on your preference and budget.
I think I need to take a few pictures of the installation because I've had a few questions on it and I sure wish I had other's pictures for reference when I started.
Do you plan to do the install yourself?
Jack,
We installed an Espar D5 hydronic (18,000 BTU) in November of last year. It was easy to route the plumbing, and the heater heats very well. The heater is in the aft port locker. I installed 2 registers one in the Salon and one in the head. I plan on hooking up the hot water tank to the system next month. The heater keeps the boat warm in 20-30 degree weather.
We have a aluminum tank and it was easy to tap into it. Everyone I spoke to that installs these heaters said do not tap into the engine fuel line, so I went with there recommendation. They said that folks tend to have more problems with the units if they don't have there own pickup point from the tank.
Total cost for all materials $1800.00. I had a friend with a Catalina 350 help and he said if he has trouble with his Espar air unit he would install the hydronic.
Thanks for input from all. Am weighing the ease of install of hydronic vs lower cost (I think) of forced air. Tom, I would like to know where you were able to get all the parts for the hydronic for $1800. That is less than the parts for the forced air units I looked at yesterday. If I can get all the parts for that price it will seal the deal.
Seems like tapping the tank is the best way to go. looks like I am one of the few guys out here with a plastic tank
Jack
Jack, I installed a Webasto unit on Bitterroot 3 years ago, and we love it. The boat is at Cap Sante, and if you would like to look at the installation, email me. Hank Busey (hwbusey@montana.com)
Hi Jack,
Our boat came with a furnace already installed. It was tee'd in at the Racor. It would lose it's prime each time the Racor was serviced, so it was one more thing to bleed. Of course we didn't discover this until one dark cold night when the furnace wouldn't start up. That may be why the manufacturer recommends a dedicated fuel line. Otherwise, when the fuel line didn't have any air in it, it worked fine whether the engine was running or not.
Jack, Jim Moe wrote an excellent article in the August 2007 Mainsheet C34 Tech Notes, which may have been part of your research.
An excerpt of what he wrote includes this:
"The DW4 unit contains the combustion chamber, diesel fuel pump, diesel filter, ignition glow plug, blower for the combustion system and a circulating pump for the hot water. It also has a thermostat for maintaining circulating water at 160 degrees F when the main switch is on. Thus the thermostat in the salon only controls the air circulating muffin fans for the heat exchangers. The control unit for the D4W is entirely solid-state. It provides a modulated flame to maintain the 160 F circulating water temperature, purging of the combustion chamber on start-up and shut-down, and system safety monitors.
"The DW4 SC kit comes with very small, tough plastic tubing for tapping into the diesel fuel supply line. This was connected into the fuel line between the engine fuel filter and the electric fuel pump using the supplied tee fitting. Thus the DW4 receives filtered fuel, though as noted above there is a fuel filter within the unit. Fuel consumption is only 1-2 quarts a day, even in the coldest weather."
It thus appears that the idea of using an individual tap into the fuel tank is directly related to the need to re-bleed the heater when changing the fuel filter. It would seem advantageous to have the fuel to the heater be filtered first by the Racor.
I've been thinking about a heater, too, and after lengthy discussions have determined that the hydronic is a superior approach given two very major issues: (1) it's easier to route the pipes around than ductwork, even knowing the extra electrical wiring needed for the fans behind the heating coils; (2) being able to make hot water without running the engine (or having to buy a generator).
Now the only choice is whether or not to get a heater or a generator! :roll:
Quote from: Stu Jackson on January 31, 2008, 02:52:25 PM
I've been thinking about a heater, too, and after lengthy discussions have determined that the hydronic is a superior approach given two very major issues: (1) it's easier to route the pipes around than ductwork, even knowing the extra electrical wiring needed for the fans behind the heating coils; (2) being able to make hot water without running the engine (or having to buy a generator).
I wouldn't weigh the advantage of pipes over ducts too heavily. While I think it is generally true, on the C34 (at least the MKI) there is a path along port side for ductwork that is dead easy to access and takes up very little usuable storage space. True you need to drill bigger holes, but I think that extra effort for ducts over pipes is pretty much a wash when you factor in the need for the wiring. It's not that big of a deal. Advantage 2 above is a much more compelling reason to go with hydronic. I be interested to know if the fans on the hydronic system would make it a noisier alternative. Also make sure to consider long term maintenance. In 10 years if air duct gets chafed through, you have warm air escaping somewhere. If a fitting fails or hose chafes on a hydronic system its a messier problem.
Thanks Stu,
Yes, Jim's article was where I started. Good article by the way. I am getting mixed signals here by talking to the local distributor/installer who suggests I may need to have a seperate fuel pump and water circulation pump on the system. They obviously want to design and install the system for me, but I am a do it yoursef kind of guy an generally don't have a problem getting things installed and working. I want to keep it simple!!
Maybe I should talk to Jim directly and have him talk me through it. I notice he even used a smaller heater than was suggested fo me.
Regarding tapping the fuel line after the Racor filter. Would that not be the same as using the second tap on the filter itself. I believe that comes off after the fuel has been through the filter. Seems that either way there is a possibility of introducing air into the fuel lines when the filter is changed.
I already have a Honda 1000 to keep batteries up on long trips. After I bought it I thought I should have gone for the 2000 so I could heat water. So now I am leaning more to the hydronic.
Jack
Jack
If the unit has it's own fuel pump as noted in Jim's article, I have no idea why they'd suggest yet another one.
If the second tap is indeed useful, by all means use it (read the literature / manual for the unit to assure yourself that this is actually how it is designed to work). You're right about the fuel filter change, but that was discussed earlier. Based on Ken Heyman and Ron Hill, need for bleeding the fuel lines is significantly reduced if you fill up the filter with fuel or injector cleaner. When I did ours the last time I used the injector cleaner, the only thing I needed to do was twist the knurled knob twice to get the engine to start, so there was a minimum of air in the lines. But there was some, so learning to bleed both the engine AND the new heater is a good thing to know.
I was kidding (a little bit) about the heater / generator thing. If we do ever buy a generator, it'll be the 2000 for the reasons you mention. We keep a good electrical system going with a 360 ah house bank and new 100 A alternator and Max Charge regulator, so we have more than two nights on the hook without having to run the engine, but hot water for showers is nice, especially when it's cooler outside.
Your DIY approach is very good, because that way you'll know everything about the new system. Good luck, take some pictures and write it up for Tech Notes.
There's not much more that I think Jim could add to his well written and documented article.
Jack, Stu, Ray - I have my Espar heater tapped off the Racor. I don't have to bleed the heater fuel pump. It make take a couple start cycles to push the fuel up the line to the unit in the port cockpit lazerette. Jack knows that if I have the valve to the heater pump off, my heater won't start. I've only been setup this way for about a year. I haven't sucked any air, but I also can shut the valve off to minimize the risk. Given the height of our fuel tanks, relative to the Racor, unless the Racor was seriously plugged, I don't think I'll suck air. Just in case, I added the vacuum gauge between the Racor and the valve to the heater fuel pump.
Craig
Jack,
I purchased the Espar through a company called cool-it in Canada. Link below.
http://www.cool-it.ca/ShoppingCart/.
They had a listing on Ebay for the Espar hydronic kit (18,000BTU). Included eveything except the through hole fitting, and the radiator's. I just checked Ebay and they have one listed for under $1200.00. Excellent service, we received the unit from Canada in 4 days. We also checked locally for the Espar and were quoted $2500-3500 for just the parts, $6000-7000 installed. We also heard we needed an additional pump, our system does not have one and functions fine. You will probably hear that the higher priced unit is designed for the marine environment, and the cheaper units are truck heaters. I checked the part numbers the heaters are same.
The 2 radiators I ordered locally from MSR marine. Call Jim at 206-546-5670. they were 135.00 each. He was also helpful in picking the right size heaters for the Catalina 34.
He recommended two smaller radiators, and he suggested we install them at the far ends of the main cabin. We did not plumb any heat into the cabins, as we like cooler sleeping. Through hole, plumbing and fittings added another $250-300.
The install was straight forward, and would not hesitate installing the Hydronic again. We spend alot of time on the hook and the wife wanted hot water. The radiator's have a 2 speed fan and on low they are verrrrry quiet.
I hope to be at the Catalina 34 get together next weekend, if you are coming maybe we can talk further.
Thank you for the info Tom.
I have been checking around and found that Thermo King Northwest sells a "truck Kit" for $996 on special now. I assume it may be similar to the package you have. I need to see what it actually contains. I reviewed installation manuals on line and noted that the unit is designed to be mounted on the outside frame rails of a truck, certainly a tougher environment than on our boats!
We plan on being at the meeting next weekend. Hope to see you there and discuss your installation.
Jack
Now that I am starting on my plumbing for a hydronic heating system I have a couple of questions. I plan on hooking up the hot water heater and red dot heater that is already installed in the boat to the new heater system. This loop comes off the engine with one connection on top of the fresh water pump and the other to the lower portion of the thermostat housing.
Is the supply the connection of this loop on the bottom of the thermostat and return to the top of the pump?
Second, after I disconnect these two lines and hook them into my heater loop, should the existing connections be capped or connected together with a small loop?
Jack
Jack,
1. Looping the "old" connections from the fresh water pump to the hot water heater and back to the thermostat: It sounds like you are planning to disconnect the engine cooling system from the hot water heater. In Jim's August 2007 article, he wrote the following quoted below.
I'm just wondering why you'd want to do that, because if you've been running your engine you won't have hot water. You'd have to run the new diesel heater to get any hot water. Means two "engines" have to run to get hot water if you're motoring. My understanding is that most diesel heaters have the option of simply connecting into the existing cooling system. I suggest you reconsider.
From Jim's article:
While the system installed in Windseeker provides only the hydronic space heating system, other system options are possible. In a truck application the DW4 typically provides standby engine heating as well as sleeper-cab heating so engine cooling system and Eberspacher hydronic systems are combined. This allows the truck engine to provide heat for the sleeper-cab while it is running and so long as truck engine coolant is over 160 F the DW4 never fires up. When the truck engine is shut down the DW4 takes over and keeps both engine and sleeper-cab warm.
"Thus by combining the diesel boat engine primary cooling system with the DW4 hydronic system it would be possible to alternately use engine heat for cabin heating or even provide domestic hot water as well as standby heat for the engine from the hydronic system. The DW4 SC manual provides plumbing instructions for these various schemes and Eberspacher offers the necessary sectionalizing and check valves to accomplish it."
2. In or out for those two lines: check your engine manual and on the manual section of our website. There's a flow diagram showing the direction of flow in the Universal manuals. The link to Marinedieseldirect finds this: http://www.marinedieseldirect.com/universal/200157/universal-owners-manual-seawater-diagram.html
Thanks Stu,
I read through the engine manual I have and it did not have that diagram. Regarding leaving the existing heater/water heater connection to the engine and the new heater, the local espar marine dealer recommends against it for the reason that there are too many chances for leaks in the expanded system and potential for engine damage due to loss of coolant. Their method is to introduce yet one more heat exchanger between the two systems to reduce the leak potential. This requires that a separate circulation pump needs to be added into the loop that is not running, which adds too much complication. However, every time a connection is made ie. even to a heat exchanger, there is a chance for a leak.
While chasing down the current hose routing in the boat yesterday, I found a splice joint in the water heater loop where the red dot heater is connected that was leaking. I have had a leak in the system since we bought the boat and almost had cured it by finding loose connections on the back of the water heater. That fixed most of it, but taking more of the sink cabinet apart I was able to find this connection up under the refrigerator that I had not known about.
My preference is to hook both systems together so I have an either or option for hot water. I truly is simple in a truck system. So far I have seen no postings or talked to anyone who has actually done it. I am going to pick up the heating unit this weekend and study the connection options that Jim talks about in his article. As I have thought about how the water flows, it seems it would be simple to install a couple of "y" connectors and some check valves to connect the systems together.
Jack
Stu & Jack - I think another reason to isolate the engine and heater coolant loops would be coolant longevity. I would think you'd rarely need to change the coolant in the heater loop, while the engine loop coolant should be replaced every couple years.
Craig
You both may remember my recent post about replacing the hot water hoses under the galley sole to the heater : http://c34.org/bbs/index.php?topic=3769.0
I understand the issue regarding connections, and, like electrical, the less number of connections the better. However, different than electrical, a simple way to check the coolant is to open the manifold cap and check the level on a regular basis. A backup is the temperature alarm and temperature gage, not something I'd want to rely on because it'd be too late, but heck they're there. Double clamping and proper design to minimize connections by sizing hoses between each POC would be the way to go.
As far as coolant, four to five years seems to be the recommended time for replacement, regardless of what service in which the coolant is used. My experience has been that I end up doing it more often that I "need" to: when the old alternator bracket broke I lost coolant; when the hoses to the HW heater under the galley sole broke, I lost coolant; when I remove my HX some of the coolant gets lost -- so changing it is not really much of a deal if you're working anywhere around the engine anyway! :D :D :D
Reading my engine manual yesterday I noted that they recommend changing coolant every 500 hours. I just hit 400 so I have not worried about it yet, but may as well get to it while I am messing with the heater coolant. My hoses at 6+ years should be good for a while. Stu, the pictures of your old hose sure makes one want to keep track of hose condition. It is a wonder you were keeping any coolant at all.
Jack