My family and I were heading back from a weekend in Kingston this morning, and (in a Small Craft Advisory, no less) our engine cut back to idle and then died just outside of Shilshole Bay (30 knt gusts). We through our jib up while I tried to figure out the problem. Fuel was fine, oil was dirty, but ok, engine temp and water flow were fine. No obvious problems. I even checked for air in the fuel line. At the time this happened we had been heading into the wind (and 4ft swells -- I love that kind of weather, btw) at 3-4kts headway, under full power. I got the engine started back up fine, but once again, no power. I was losing headway. We took the safe way out and accepted assistance from some fine folks with a working power plant, and moored at the Shilshole Marina Fuel dock for a half hour while I further ruminated on the subject. I then started her up, through her in reverse, then in forward. No problems at all. We then proceeded to power through the locks, and opened three bridges on our way back to our moorage with no additional symptoms.
My thoughts: I possibly had something wrapped around my prop; my tranny is acting up/overheating (no temp sensor on that one); or I got some backpressure at the exhaust due to the nasty weather (note that everthing worked fine after I was in protected waters).
Any thoughts or suggestions?
When you're boat is moving around a lot in wave action the fuel contaminates mix in with the turbulance. I would check out the fuel pick up tube in your tank. If there is still a screen on it's end, take it off. That may be a source of temporary and intermittent blockage. Then, remove your fuel from the tank, then remove the tank for cleaning or replacement. This whole situation sounds like you're primary and secondary filters are doing their job for the engine but the pick up tube, fuel and tank could do with some cleaning.
Thanks Gary. Sounds like a great place to start. :thumb:
had the pickup tube/screen problem on my Cat 30 and it was just like you describe. However, are you sure your filters are clean?? remember looking at oil in a bowl and it looks clean is deceiving.
your eye can only detect dirt above 40 microns, and the filters take out dirt particles down to 10 microns (depending what filters you have). I have 20 and 10 micron filters. The 20 is the Racor and the 10 is a spin-on at the engine. The spin on is a faith filter with no indicator of it's condition. A vacuum gauge on the fuel line after the filters would give you the real story, especially when at full power.
I agree. It sounds like fuel starvation. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. Start with the pick-up tube as reccomended and work your way down the fuel system changing the filters, bleeding etc. Good luck.
How full was your fuel tank? With all that rockin', you could have just picked up a blob of air which shut you down. It would explain why it worked later on. Even if all the other issues discussed here, which are certainly valid, don't resolve it to your complete satisfaction, it could be a partly full tank just got enough air in the line.
I filled the tank two days prior. I thought it might be air in the lines too, so I purged some from the Racor and reprimed it (though I didn't do a terribly thourough job of it, time was short).
Jay : You initially had the "text book" symptoms of a clogged pick up screen in the fuel pick up tube. However, after that you got the engine running, you should have had the same symptoms again. IF your electric fuel pump wasn't working, the clogged pickup tube/filter/s stopped the gravity feed of fuel!!
No doubt you need to drain your fuel tank and clean it (see my Mainsheet article). When you remove the tank make sure that you don't have a screen in that fuel pick-up tube (my other Mainsheet article on that very topic). Then change both filters (also look at the screen in the fuel pump!!), bleed the system and you should be "good to go". If you have the old original electric fuel pump you may want to change it to the new electronic model (take your old pump to a NAPA auto parts store to match a the new one)
Your dirty fuel tank, after 20 years did that "Dasterly Deed". :!:
Another item I just remembered. . . the throttle backed off and litterally couldn't be forced forward? Is this symptom common of fuel starvation/plugged fuel pickup? This problem is new territory for me. Thanks for all your help!
Ah, more input! Could something down below have rammed into the cable connecting the throttle to the linkage on the engine? Or something amiss inside the binnacle...
Not that I could tell. It was more like the compression of the engine was forcing the throttle back. As the engine lost speed the throttle pushed back against my hand, and when I tried to speed back up, it wouldn't move.
Jay : If you can not find anything externally that caused the throttle problem, I hate to be the bearer of BAD Tidings. You'd better have a GOOD mechanic look at your injector pump (it also is the key to engine timing) BEFORE you try starting/running that engine!!
(The throttle cable at the engine connects to a pivot arm, the other end of that arm connects to the injector pump.) :cry4`
Ron:
I've already run the engine for another hour or so. . . with no problems, or additional symptoms. Also, the engine never ran rough at all, it just slowed down. So, I don't think the injector pump is the culprit. If it were, my timing would be noticably off, correct?
A lot of good suggestions... I agree, it sounds like it's either the
linkage or something with the injector pump.
Looking at the parts manual I think it would have to be in
either the "Speed Control Plate Group" or the "Governor Group."
http://www.c34.org/manuals/
The timing (as Ron noted in his Injector Pump Rebuild Project)
is controlled by shims that the pump is mounted on.
Let's hope it was something in the external linkage.
I've done a lot of work to the boat since I bought last fall. One of these projects was a replacement of the stock alternator with a Balmar alternator and Xantrex/Balmar voltage regulator. The voltage regulator sends a signal to the tach. Is it possible that in the rough seas I encountered this connection came a bit loose and if so, would the tach signal effect the governor? I did a cursory check of the wiring at the time. I have noticed that my tach reads a little higher than before, around 800-900 rpm at idle.
Also, if the voltage regulator could be affecting the governor, how about heat? I placed mine in the back of the engine compartment, which generally stays pretty cool, but I had been running the engine hard for over two hours when the problem arose. . .
Just thinking out loud here. . . as usually all advise is appreciated. I'm going to drain all fluids, replace all filters, remove the pickup screen and take a fuel sample from the bottom of the tank this weekend. I might also replace the water pump impeller if I have time, though cooling isn't a problem.
No, Tach has no effect on governor which is only mechanical. Engine will run fine without the tach or even the alternator working.
Jay : I'm sure that any of your previous work on the alternator or voltage regulator had NOTHING to do with your engine problem. The throttle, governor and injector pump are all mechanical and have no electrical tie in.
When you say "that the throttle backed off and couldn't be forced forward" says that something is jamming that linkage or the injector pump is doing strange things!!
I still think that you need someone to look at it! :roll:
Check the "bleed screw" on the Racor. I had a loss of power the first day I took official posession, moving her from Westport up to Onset, on Buzzards Bay. All was well, until I got to the trickiest part of the journey (of course) just as I hit the entrance to the Cape Cod Canal, I lost power, and only could limp along at 1,000 rpm. As long as temp and oil was ok, I continued at a snail's pace til the mooring. I thought it was a fuel/fuel pump issue, but after having an expert go through the whole system, starting from the fuel tank (fuel analysis, suction, etc) it was discovered that the nylon bleeder screw was loose, and allowing air. Good luck.
Tom,
Your symptoms sound just like mine. I did bleed the system when out there, but it's possible that with the knocking about the boat was taking air was getting into the system.
Update:
So far I've replaced both fuel filters (they were dirty, but both passing fuel fine), engine oil, tranny oil, and I've pulled the fuel pickup line. The pickup line had no rubber hose or screen on the end. Not a problem, unless I run the tank low on fuel. I also took a fuel sample from the bottom of the tank -- clean.
I've not been able to duplicate the engine problem I had. I'm leaning towards air in the line as being the culprit. I haven't checked all of the fuel line connections yet. I'll do that next time I'm at the boat.
I also restuffed my packing box today with Gore flax. A strangly satisfying job. . . It's nice to have a dry bilge. :thumb:
BTW, I was shocked at how nasty the engine oil was. And the tranny oil was very low. The PO (third owner) was a liveaboard, and I'm guessing never changed the oil. I'll be changing it again in month or two to clean out the rest of the old sludge.
Take a look at the length of your pick-up tube. Without the hose on the end it will start sucking air around 3/8 of a tank, maybe sooner in sloppy seas. Also that hose may be floating around in your tank waiting to cause mishchief. You need to make sure the pick-up line is all the way to the bottom of the tank and find out what happened to the hose.
Engine oil is almost always very black, even right after you change it. The nature of diesels.
Quote from: Ted Pounds on March 04, 2007, 06:11:41 PM
Take a look at the length of your pick-up tube. Without the hose on the end it will start sucking air around 3/8 of a tank, maybe sooner in sloppy seas. Also that hose may be floating around in your tank waiting to cause mishchief. You need to make sure the pick-up line is all the way to the bottom of the tank and find out what happened to the hose.
I'm not worried about the hose causing mischief. It's been in the fuel tank for 19 years, a few more months won't kill it. But, you're right about the low-fuel problem. I don't let the fuel level get below 3/4, but I'll have to spend a weekend draining, pulling, and cleaning the tank in the near future.
I decided to pull the tank today. The rubber hose was on the bottom of the tank. The screen on it was not horribly gunked up, but I cut it off anyway and reinstalled the hose onto the pickup tube. The inside of the tank was serviceable, but I got a cup or so of goop out of it. Glad I did it, and now I shouldn't have to mess with it for years to come.
Update -- still no recurrence of the problem. All seems well with the engine. However, I was reading through the FAQ page today and saw the post on fuel pumps, which got me thinking. My fuel pump is constantly clicking away at a couple of beats per second when the key is turned on. It never slows. Sounds like I could have an air leak or a faulty pump. . . I guess I have more searching/checking to do.
Forgive me if this sounds insulting but the most obvious thing to check if your fuel pump is running continuously is the bleed screw at the injection pump where the fuel return line is. Some people leave this open 1/2 turn to act as a self bleeder. Make sure it's closed and if you don't see any obvious leaks then I would suspect the fuel pump.
Mike
Not at all, Mike. It's on my list of things to check (I've not checked that before).
Still on my first year with Wind Dancer. Learning more about her every day.
Jay, Just in case you need this reference to flix of the new Napa fuelpump replacement: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php?topic=2515.0
This sounds very familiar.... I had the same experience off the south end of Vashon at Pt Defiance....20-25 mi wind, choppy seas, lots of boats and "hic" the engine slowed to a stop and wouldn't start. It must have sucked some air in the line. I found the bleed valve, after a lot of head scratching, and rid the line of air (having not previously done that while underway). Seemed to solve the problem as all ran fine after that.
I wonder if this is caused by some strange vortex on Puget Sound???
:shock:
Dave
I turned the screw on the injector "off" (which stops the flow of fuel to the injectors) and the clicking went away only to come back again. Must have an air leak somewhere in the system? Either that or the model fuel pump (which is a Facet automotive (Gold?) pump) is always on when the key is on. I didn't have time when I was at the boat to investigate further. The Facet website doesn't give specifications for their various pumps. I'll make a phone call when I get a chance. From the .pdf (http://www.facet-purolator.com/mcl/media/technology/hd_pdfs/Gold-Flo_sheet.pdf (http://www.facet-purolator.com/mcl/media/technology/hd_pdfs/Gold-Flo_sheet.pdf)
on the website, I found there is an internal filter. I probably should take it apart and clean it too.
Jay, let me clairify that the bleed screw at the injectors does not cut off the fuel supply to the injectors, it allows you to bleed air or fuel to the return line that goed back to the tank. The engine will run with the bleed screw closed. You should be able to stop and start the fuel pump clicking by opening and closing the bleed screw with the engine off and the ignition key on. With the engine running it would be normal to hear a slow clicking from the fuel pump.
Some people leave the bleed screw open 1/2 turn and there two trains of thought on this:
1 Is that by leaving it open, it will act as a self bleeding system in case air gets in the system.
2 It that by closing it, the pump won't have to work as hard and will provide more pressure to the injectors.
I would love to get Ron's and Stu"s opinion on this and to confirm that my info is accurate.
Mike
Mike : What the lift pump is doing is making sure that the injector pump has fuel so it can pressurize the injectors. Our fuel tank is higher than most (boats) and down to about 1/2 tank the fuel will syphon to the injector pump.
Joe Joyce (service manager Westerbeke) likes the idea of leaving the bleed valve open about 1/2 turn and have a "self bleeding system". Also with the bleed valve cracked open, fuel is recirculated back to the tank and subsequently re filtered thru the Racor filter. This keeps the fuel "polished" and sucks up any junk in the bottom of the tank.
If the bleed valve is closed NO fuel is recirculated!! I've listened to the pump "tick" and I can't really tell that much of a difference if the bleed valve is cracked or not! The ticking (pumping) really is differant (speeds up) when the bleed valve is all the way open, but what are we trying to save??
I'd rather have a self bleeding system with some fuel being recirculated and filtered than "save" the effort on the pump. The new style electronic pump(vrs mechanical) is more trouble free. I've had one for about 5 years and am well satisfied with the improved reliability.
My thoughts. :thumb:
Hi, glad you asked, Mike.
Please see Ken Heyman's great thread about bleeding: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php?topic=2884.0
What one should consider doing is "playing" with your own boat and your own system.
With our M25, I leave the bleed screw CLOSED, and I have never experienced a difference in the operation of the fuel pump ONCE THE AIR IS BLED OUT. BEFORE it is bled out, as mentioned in the referenced thread, the pump DOES click a lot more quickly. Once it's bled, it's tick-tick-tick, as compared to brrr-brrr-brrr. Best I can do to explain the difference besides recording it and posting it with an audio playback.
With later engines, of which almost ALL of you qualify, there are many options. I don't have one of those engines, so I leave it up to you.
However, and here's the gist of this message: each of you has to experiment.
Also, lest I forget, please do a search on the world "bleed" -- I promise, it won't hurt or turn red like my boat bites from this weekend have for me, but you'll learn a lot.
All the best,