Catalina 34

General Activities => Main Message Board => Topic started by: Stu Jackson on August 22, 2006, 09:20:04 PM

Title: Reduced engine heat to hot water heater & Kubota dealers in CA
Post by: Stu Jackson on August 22, 2006, 09:20:04 PM
Situation:  The metal connectors between the hoses coming from the thermostat to the larger hoses going from the engine compartment down and under the galley sole to the hot water heater under the galley sink on our Mark I had somehow loosened up.  There was clear (dirty!) evidence of water seepage at the metal joints because of a film or streaks running down both hoses.  I removed the smaller hoses from under the thermostat housing, didn't lose more than less than 5 ounces of coolant, and tightened the fitting between the two hoses (both supply and return).  I also then burped the fresh water cooling system by opening the valve on the top of the thermostat when the engine was hot - no evidence of air in the system.  The manifold is full of coolant as is the overflow tank (ala Ron's design).

Issue:  The water heater isn't putting out as much heat for hot water after running the engine as we normally do for our 40 minute motor out of the Oakland Estuary to the Bay.  I've been doing this for over eight years, and the water is just not as hot as it always (always) used to be.  I would estimate only half as warm as usual, or a bit less.

Any ideas?

PS (added 8/23 -- I suspect the thermostat)
PPS  --  engine temp is fine
Title: Re: Reduced engine heat to hot water heater
Post by: David Sanner on August 23, 2006, 01:16:20 AM
Off the top of my head I'd say you either have air trapped in the system or
your thermostat isn't closing all the way. (how's the engine temp?)

Have you tried slowly burping the system while the engine is running? 
(Just cracking the the valve at the thermostat housing, letting some
coolant leak out along with any air that's moving through the system)

Either that or something is plugging the system.  Time for a flush?
Title: Re: Reduced engine heat to hot water heater
Post by: Gary on August 23, 2006, 06:54:27 AM
Stu,

Would it be helpful in diagnosing the problem to bypass the water heater intake and outlet with a piece of clear plastic tubing?  At least that way you could observe flow rate and air bubble blockage.
Title: Re: Reduced engine heat to hot water heater
Post by: Footloose on August 23, 2006, 02:37:16 PM
Stu,

Last year when we purchased our C34 we didn't get much in the way of hot water either.  I replaced the thermostat and it took care of the problem.

Whenever my car isn't putting out as much heat as it should I replace the thermostat and it resolves the problem.  I wouldn't pay much attention to the temp gauge.  At least on my car the gauge will barely be reading any lower but the difference in heat output is remarkable. 

Winters here in Vermont are tough on sailling.  The water is in the wrong phase.  I haven't tried iceboating yet.
Title: Re: Reduced engine heat to hot water heater
Post by: Stu Jackson on August 23, 2006, 03:28:58 PM
I agree, and thanks.  Next ?:

I purchased a new thermostat this afternoon.  The old T # (Universal) was 301358 (8 years old).  The new "kit" which includes the gasket, is a #200218, and the thermostat plastic bag has this # on it, so I don't think it was just a change in the product # to include the gasket.  The salesperson noted that Universal had changed the product # after checking on his computer.  The new T is a little wider in diameter at the flange and not as deep.

Anyone have any recent experience on this product # change and T size?  I have the puppy in my hot little hands and am prepared to put it in, just want to know if anyone's had this experience, and if you know if it fits.  I'm fully prepared to try it out (not a hard job, at any rate), but it'd be nice to know that it will fit in the hole!
Title: Re: Reduced engine heat to hot water heater
Post by: Ron Hill on August 23, 2006, 05:21:24 PM
Stu : As I advised an owner yesterday, take the old thermostat and go to your Kubota dealer and get the same one for less than 1/2 the Universal price. 
Universal may have two thermostat housings now that they've gone to a switch and a sender for the water temperature on the newer engines - I don't really know? 
Title: Re: Reduced engine heat to hot water heater
Post by: Stu Jackson on August 23, 2006, 06:10:25 PM
I know, I know, I know, about going to the Kubota dealer.  However, the average distance to the closest ones to me is 33 miles.  A round trip of 66 miles with the price of gas today would cost more doing that.  I "googled" Kubota and found them, but unless I'm doing a major overhaul or buying a ton of spare parts for an extended cruise (don't I WISH  :shock:), the cost of the journey (and my time) just isn't worth it. 

For those in the Bay Area, they're in Livermore, Rio Vista and Fairfield.

Team Power
Approximate distance from your zip code: 30 miles
2034 Research Drive
Livermore, CA 94550
Phone: (925) 443-7600
Fax: (925) 443-1635
Email: dwalker@teampowerforklift.com

As of 5/7/2011 this number has been reported to be out of service.


Green Valley Tractor
Approximate distance from your zip code: 33 miles
I-80 & Abernathy Rd. - 4135 Abernathy Rd.
Fairfield, CA 94534
Phone: (707) 425-8933
Fax: (707) 425-8034
Email: sales@greenvalleytractor.com



Dolk Tractor Company
Approximate distance from your zip code: 37 miles
242 North Front St.
Rio Vista , CA 94571
Phone: (707) 374-6438
Fax: (707) 374-6430
Email: info@dolktractorcompany.com

I did bring the old one in, hence my post.  I'll try the 'stat they gave me, if it doesn't fit, I'll try it again.
Title: Re: Reduced engine heat to hot water heater
Post by: Craig Illman on August 23, 2006, 07:35:48 PM
The new housing for the temp sender and alarm is the same size, it just has an additional threaded hole for the alarm. I could have just taken the old housing and drilled and tapped for the alarm sender. My shop is always missing just the right tool, even after almost forty years of accumulating stuff.

Craig
Title: Re: Reduced engine heat to hot water heater
Post by: Randy Stolze on August 24, 2006, 05:16:44 AM

  Stu,

       This probably too late at this point but being retired and frugal, I would test the orginal thrmostat in a pot of water on the stove to see waht happens at 159 degrees. Getting all of the air out of that water heater loop can be a real pia.

  Regards,

  Randy
Title: Re: Reduced engine heat to hot water heater
Post by: Andrew Harvey on August 24, 2006, 06:56:27 AM
When I rebuilt my water pumps 2 years ago I had a heck of a time bleeding the coolant system. A mechanic friend told me to run the engine but leave the rad cap off till the T stat opens and you can see a good flow in the manifold. This actually worked and cleared out all of the air bubbles.
 
Title: Re: Reduced engine heat to hot water heater
Post by: Tom Glennon on September 01, 2006, 11:26:58 AM
I had a similar situation after installing a new Raritah hot water heater.  I disconnected the hoses as at the block, then slowly poured antifreeze in one hose, using a funnel, untill clear antifreeze was at the top of the other hose.... reconnected, and then ran the engine, opening the pet-cock on the thermostat.  It did burp a little.  I found after all that, I had to replace the thermostat (got the Kobuta one)  and it was like magic!  Engine temp was perfect, and the hot water has never been so good, even after a short engine run, it is steaming!  Engine temp is a steady 160 degres too.  Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Reduced engine heat to hot water heater
Post by: Stu Jackson on September 18, 2006, 10:05:29 AM
On Saturday we checked the thermostat again.  When up to operating temperature, the pet cock on the top of the thermostat housing didn't emit much of anything, leading me to believe the thermostat should be replaced.  Previously when I had to burp the fresh water, opening the pet cock got coolant bubbles, a burst of air then steady coolant.  This time, not much of anything.  We tried Andrew's idea with the coolant cap off.  With the engine temp OK, we still got no hot water.

I called one of the local Kubota dealers (Livermore) this morning and ordered two thermostats and gaskets.  The Universal thermostat cost was $42 (for the one that doesn't appear that it will fit).  The local Kubota price was $16.72!!!  OK, OK, Ron and the rest of you have been right all along.  I tried the tractorsmart.com reference in this thread: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php?topic=978.0 online, but didn't see the Kubota D850 series, so called locally.  BTW, Bernd's model numbers for the thermostats and gaskets for his M25XP (D950) are the same as for our D850 (M25) noted in that thread.  I got to that thread by doing a search on "D850."  They're supposed to be drop shipped from Kubota tomorrow, I'll keep you posted.

One other thing I think remembered from earlier posts:  when the thermostat stops working the engine temperature remains low -- am I remembering that correctly?
Title: Re: Reduced engine heat to hot water heater
Post by: jmnpe on September 18, 2006, 09:58:34 PM
Stu,

The thermostat can "stop working" either way: stuck open or stuck closed. If it sticks open, the engine has to work hard to get up to temperature.

My previous experience with getting a bubble of air in the water heater engine coolant loop out were, as previously advertised, a real PIA. The engine looked full of coolant, and the temperature was good, but no hot water flow through the engine coolant loop to the water heater ( hence, no hot water...). I finally tried reving the engine pretty fast a series of times in neutral, and there was finally a big "blupe!" out of the open radiator cap, and it was good after that. I also had to do the same thing on the Stamas 44 when I replaced the water heater, so it must be a fairly common occurance.

John
Title: Re: Reduced engine heat to hot water heater
Post by: Stu Jackson on September 20, 2006, 12:36:48 AM
Received the new thermostats today (Tuesday, 9/19/06).  These match the shape of the original ones.  Looks like a "GO" and I'll return the Universal one I bought from Seapower to them, and save $42 - $17.  Not a bad deal for a telephone call.  The new gaskets are made of a black material - could be paper,too - as compared to the older gaskets which just looked like thick paper or cardboard stock, tan like a shopping bag.  These new ones also have a tiny little lip in the ring.
Title: Re: Reduced engine heat to hot water heater
Post by: Ron Hill on September 20, 2006, 06:37:11 PM
Stu : If you have a stuck thermostate CLOSED, you'll have hi engine temp in short order of about 10 minutes!!

If you have a thermostate stuck OPEN, it'll take the engine much longer to get up to 160 degrees operating temp - hence it'll take longer to get hot water in the heater.  However, if you motor for over an hour I'd guess the the engine temp would be OK in 20 minutes and you'd have hot water in an hour. 

If after 1 hour of motoring and you don't have hot water, I'll guess that you've got some kind of blockage in the internal coolant lines??  :wink:
Title: Re: Reduced engine heat to hot water heater
Post by: Stu Jackson on September 26, 2006, 09:46:54 AM
Update:  replaced the thermostat with the 82C (180F), now the engine runs at 180 to 185 instead of 160F with the old thermostat.  Haven't had a chance to check out the hot water from the engine since we were plugged in between races at the Nationals.  Only will know the next time we use the boat.  Will keep U posted.
Title: Re: Reduced engine heat to hot water heater
Post by: Ron Hill on September 28, 2006, 05:49:38 PM
Stu : Regarding the National Races: With a +20 degree higher thermostat, Aquavite must be some kind of "HOT" boat when motoring!!  What about when sailing??    :rollingl
Title: Re: Reduced engine heat to hot water heater
Post by: Footloose on September 29, 2006, 03:46:11 AM
Acually, I would be interested to know how long it takes to get hot water with the new thermostat.  Footloose lives on a mooring so we are always starting from cold. 
Title: Re: Reduced engine heat to hot water heater
Post by: Mike and Joanne Stimmler on September 29, 2006, 01:37:05 PM
Stu, why did you go to a 180 degree thermastat from a 160? Seems way too hottttt!

Mike    :shock:
Title: Re: Reduced engine heat to hot water heater
Post by: Stu Jackson on October 01, 2006, 03:32:23 PM
Thanks, Ron, it's somewhat hot when sailing, too.   :shock:  Only occasionally, though.

Mike, I went to the 180 F thermostat because I wasn't bright enough to simply request the 160 F thermostat.  I ended up selling my second thermostat to another C34 owner who needed one at the docks during the National Regatta, so when I get a chance this week I'll call the Kubota dealer and order two new 160 F thermostats. The Kubota catalog numbers for the thermostats was recorded in the earlier posts I referenced, but when I get them I'll note them here, too.

The engine temperature runs between 180 and 185 degrees, the gage swings a bit within that 5 degree band.  180 is not too hot to run a diesel.

Dave, The hot water is now working, although it seems to take a somewhat longer time to heat the water.  Perhaps I was too impatient.  It takes about 45 minutes of motoring.  I noticed that the water in the heater gets hotter even after you turn off the engine, so the heating coil stays hot for a while and keeps heating the water.  The engine has to be run at cruising speed, running it anchor at 1500 rpm for charging, for instance, just won't get the water hot within any reasonable time.

Accordingly, I'm going to replace the hoses from the thermostat housing to the water heater, since the water heater was new when we bought the boat in 1998 -- it is not OEM from 1986.

Added May 2008 - Here's why!!!:   http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,3769.0.html
Title: Re: Reduced engine heat to hot water heater
Post by: David Sanner on October 01, 2006, 05:15:05 PM

Stu... as others have suggested it sounds like you've got a flow issue, probably in the HW loop but
maybe restricted flow somewhere else in the system.  Or maybe it's all in your mind ;)
(45 mins...  I think my water heats up much sooner)


I installed Stu's 180 degree thermostat and my engine is running steady at 180 degrees.
The thermostat that it replaced was a 160 degree thermostat that was less than a year
old. Unfortunately it seemed to have the same problem as the one it replaced which caused
the engine to run in the 140 range.... or less.  ie. stuck open.

The manuals mentions 180 degree operating temperature.  I would think the
engine would be more efficient running at 180 than 160, less carbon, etc.  Or not?



-d
Title: Re: Reduced engine heat to hot water heater
Post by: Ron Hill on October 01, 2006, 05:28:21 PM
Stu : I'm glad that you're going back to a 160 degree thermostat, even though diesels are said to run better hot.  I'm sure that the engineers selected 160 rather 180 for that reason of being too hot.

Guys : I've talked you a number of people over the past 20 years with M25 series engines and it takes about 1 hour of motoring to get hot water!! After all you're trying to warm up 6 gallons of water, not just a few quarts.  The warm coolant is also going thru the heat exchanger to help keep it from heating and the water heater is only a secondary by product !!  After all the engine will run at 160 without a waterheater!!!  :idea:
Title: Re: Reduced engine heat to hot water heater
Post by: Stu Jackson on October 03, 2006, 01:43:13 PM
Reference to Bernd's post on thermostat model numbers from Kubota: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php?topic=1067.0

It says:  

p/n15531-73010 (180 degree)
p/n19203-73010 (160 degree)
p/n1576-73270  gasket


New thermostat gasket model # is: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4165.0.html

I just ordered two 160s.  The local Livermore tractor dealer had one in stock and is getting me the second.  Very helpful people in Livermore, Roy in parts.  For you Northern California guys who need tractor parts, I highly recommend Team Power (see post in this thread above for phone #).
Title: Re: Reduced engine heat to hot water heater
Post by: David Sanner on October 03, 2006, 07:25:40 PM
Ron, you mention the designers chose 160 but I've been looking
over the manuals (http://www.c34.org/manuals/index.htm) and they all
seem to talk of 180 degree not 160.  ... normal operating temp 170-190. 

I guess there's a starting opening temp and a fully opening temp but the service
manual from the above link says the opening temp is 180F.

I'm not sure what the opening temp is on mine but it's stamped 82c (180F)
and the engine runs right in the middle of the gauge (on the big number) 180.

With my 3" heat exchanger and the colder waters of the San Francisco
bay I've only had the problem of the engine not running hot enough.
...except when my intake plugged up ;)

-d

Title: Re: Reduced engine heat to hot water heater
Post by: jmnpe on October 04, 2006, 06:41:35 AM
One possible consideration of the 180 versus 160 degree callouts is that the "typical" application for the industrial version ( i.e. - tractor ) of this engine is in non-cowled or loosely cowled compartments with the radiator fan moving lots of air out of the minimal engine compartment. In the C34 application, we don't get nearly as much air moved out of the compartment, and at least down here in Texas summers that nice "cool" 104 degree intake air doesn't help moderate the temperature in the engine compartment very much.

Only speculation on my part.....

John
Title: Re: Reduced engine heat to hot water heater
Post by: Stu Jackson on October 06, 2006, 11:27:30 AM
Received the 160 F thermostats yesterday:  $21.69 each.

The 180F s were "only" $16.72.
Title: Re: Reduced engine heat to hot water heater
Post by: Stu Jackson on October 08, 2006, 11:08:49 PM
The hot water is back -- with a vengeance.  Took the boat out yesterday, looks like there may have simply been an air bubble in the hot water line to the heater.  Water's hot now, and gets there pretty quickly like before (about 40 minutes), and is hotter than before because of the 180F thermostat.  I'll switch back to the new 160F when I get a chance.  Thanks for all the ideas and suggestions.
Title: Re: Reduced engine heat to hot water heater
Post by: John Sheehan on October 10, 2006, 06:45:47 AM
One possible reason for the 160 rather than the 180 in the marine applications is the lower temperature would reduce the amount of mineral precipitation in the heat exchanger.
Title: Re: Reduced engine heat to hot water heater
Post by: Jimlad on April 23, 2007, 10:51:44 AM
Hi Stu,
Regarding the problem below, I've encountered the same issue but in reverse in that my failed thermo was a little larger than the 'new' one as supplied by the dealer when I updated my spare part inventory (part 301358).  I think my dealer needs to update his stock and ship the part no 200218 to me. My vessel is built in 2002 (This is a real bummer when you try to stock up on spares and the spares don't fit - I guess the moral of the story is, always check you have got the right spares, even to the extent of trying to fit them)

An update from my dealer.  Up until March 98 the M35B had a thermostat assembly that had a flange diameter of 38mm.  Engines manufactured after March 98 had a flange diameter of 44mm.  According to him the the later part number is 201001.  Thanks to Prince of Rivergare Marina up in Brisbane for the research and great customer service! :thumb:

Quote from: Stu Jackson on August 23, 2006, 03:28:58 PM
I agree, and thanks.  Next ?:

I purchased a new thermostat this afternoon.  The old T # (Universal) was 301358 (8 years old).  The new "kit" which includes the gasket, is a #200218, and the thermostat plastic bag has this # on it, so I don't think it was just a change in the product # to include the gasket.  The salesperson noted that Universal had changed the product # after checking on his computer.  The new T is a little wider in diameter at the flange and not as deep.

Anyone have any recent experience on this product # change and T size?  I have the puppy in my hot little hands and am prepared to put it in, just want to know if anyone's had this experience, and if you know if it fits.  I'm fully prepared to try it out (not a hard job, at any rate), but it'd be nice to know that it will fit in the hole!
Title: Re: Reduced engine heat to hot water heater
Post by: Stu Jackson on April 28, 2007, 10:12:06 PM
and buy two or more when you do find them...