We are complete newbies as far as diesel maintenance is concerned (although getting a little more knowledgeable from this site, and yes, Stu, I have recently bought Calder) and therefore for the two years we have owned Moonshadow, we have used the diesel mechanic at the marina to service our M25XP.
He thinks that water has got into the engine oil (probably through a failed raw water pump seal) and has caused problems - evidenced by oil discharge from the breather tube, low compression in the middle cylinder, and irregular running/stalling at low revs.
The workshop is unable to quote for repairs until he is able to strip and inspect it, but suggests we might want to consider repowering rather than undertaking major work on a 12 year old engine. My view is that repowering seems over the top, so I am seeking advice from you diesel experts out there - what is the likely damage to components, what other replacements would you do if the engine is coming out of the boat anyway (does it need to come out?), would you consider repowering?
When I get some time I need to do a diesel maintenance course! Thanks for any advice and information in the meantime.
Wow, that's some pretty expensive advice. I certainly would get a second opinion, before proceeding with that recommendation. First of all it's hard to believe a repower would be cheaper then overhauling the engine (assuming that's needed). It might be different if the boat was grossly underpowered. I'm surprised that the raw water pump would allow water to enter the oil. I was under the impression there was one seal to keep the water in the pump and a second seal to keep the oil in the engine, with a space and weep hole in between. I'm looking forward to hearing from those with more knowledge.
Good Luck,
Dave
Repowering is usually a very expensive proposition. The cost of the engine is the beginning, followed by installation, broken parts, necessary upgrades (mounts, hoses, belts, bed, etc, etc, etc} and the list goes on. You must weigh the benefit of a new engine against the final cost (I would estimate somewhere in the $10,000 to $12,000 range. Is the "failed raw water seal" worth that kind of money - probably not. If the problem is more serious - cracked block, the cost of repair vs. cost of replacement becomes more realistic.
I would determine the exact cause of the water/oil problem before making any decisions. It would be a shame to replace the engine if the problem is a 57 cent seal.
Jim Kane
M25XP Engine
Alastair
I agree with the recommendations offered.
1. Check the raw water pump. The seals are well described by Ron and Jim and Dave.
It's a relatively easy replacement accessible from the front of the engine.
2. Check the fresh water (internal) coolant pump: I assume you have seen the M25XP warning issued by the C36 Association, and copied on this 'site. If not, try www.c36.org, (http://www.c36.org,) or something like it. Westerbeke Universal has a part to fit at no cost. Surprised (!) that your "mechanic" didn't know about it, if it could be an issue for you.
3. The oil breather hose description from your mechanic is "BS". An early suggestion on the way-old website material was to simply put the end of the breather hose in an old beer can with foam inside of it to absorb the effluent. I did it one better, I stuck it into an Excedrin plastic bottle, figuring the beer would come ealier anyway! I've "had" to replace at least 5 Execedrin plastic green bottles in the last five years, but we have had no oil spills on the deck of the engine compartment. We did, however, purchase the newer oil intake kit. I have yet to reroute the breather hose over to the starboard side to the air intake of the engine.
4. In addition to Ron's suggestions, before you do anything, check the alignment of the engine, the mounts and, as I described recently, the bolts on the shaft coupling. I recently found two of the four bolts out and the others loose, made for a very uneven sounding engine.
Try: http://c34.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=329609511&f=829605811&m=355605214 (http://c34.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=329609511&f=829605811&m=355605214)
Also do a message board "find" on 'coupling' and you'll get more input.
I thought I'd never become an engine expert. I put off buying a boat with a diesel engine because it was always easier to bring the outboard in to have it mantained.
HOGWASH!
You're doing VERY well diagnosing and describing your issues. You know more than the mechanics you're working with.
Unless it's a major rebuild, you CAN do everything needed to keep your engine working.
The worst thing to do is to "trust" the mechanic.
He is NOT going to be there with you when your engine doesn't start at your favorite anchorage after a few days on the hook.
Keep learning, you're heading in the right direction.
As the others have said, do not commit to an expensive "anything" unless you're sure it's not a $1.83 part (ok, Dave, I'm just going with inflation and exchange rates!)
Keep us posted, we're here for you.
Stu
Did i miss something? Did you look at the oil?
Water in oil is very easy to see, check the dip stick, oil and water mixed well in the engine will look grey, or drain the oil and look at it. Water and oil will seperate!
You may need a tune up and a new mechanic.
_/) And Now for Something Completely Different _/)
Ditto the entire preceding thread...
If, however, a subsequent, more thorough investigation leads to the determination (or even the suspicion, e.g. ",,,maybe diesel oil is ALWAYS that color!") there does exist substantial damage to the engine's internal components, and IF, in fact, you DID get away clean with that bank job and none of the bills are marked, ink-stained or in any other way traceable, might I suggest you at least ponder the potenital peace of mind offered by a brand new, bright&shiny, stickers-still-on-the-valve-cover engine. How long did the previous engine last? That many years of peace of mind. And, of course, the bragging rights.
But speaking personally, even if all of the numbers on my ticket did match the winning lottery draw, I would still probably opt for a part-by-part replacement of existing engine components PROVIDING I was the one doing the replacing, as the knowledge gained by such would be worth so much more than the effort put forth. Talk about bragging rights...
And finally...
Find out which car in the parking lot belongs to this mechanic of yours, and replace the bumper sticker that reads: "My Daughter Goes to Wellesley" with "Saddam is Innocent". ...the flamer...
Brought to you by - Rumors You Can Trust
Maslow was right...
Dear Moonshadow,
You're in a tuff spot. Water in the oil often take out the crankshaft bearings first. Low compression is usually caused by worn/broken rings or burned/improperly adjusted valves. An engine with low compression on one jug would run rough, as would an engine with a messed up injector. If I were in your spot, I'd start with my own compression test followed by a valve adjustment. Doing a dry check and a wet check on each cylinder will help trouble shoot whether the problem is rings or valves. While adjusting the valves I'd pay particular attention to the cam lobes. After the valve adjustment, another compression test, but only if you found one dead cylinder to begin with. If there were no dead cylinders, I'd pull the injectors. You might be able to see a sign of trouble, such as one injector a different color than the others or one injector with a wet tip. I'd replace a funny looking injector. If the injectors look fine, I would probably buy one injector and stick it in one hole at a time to see if that fixes the problem. A person could buy all three injectors and replace them, but then you wouldn't know which one was bad. (that's just me, I'm cheap)
If compression is okay, valves are okay, injectors are okay, time to consider the injector pump.
The worst case senario is to find that there is a compression problem and it's not the valves. It would be time to pull the engine out at that point and have it inspected at the shop. I'd put off the decision to repower up to that point, as by then, a shop would be able to give a pretty good estimate on repair.
You've already been given good advice on the water problem. On most every external water/fuel pump, there is usually a weep hole in case one of the seals fail. It's doubtful that's the cause of the problem. Water in the oil usually discolors the oil and causes a build up of crap in the valve cover. If it's the fresh water that's getting in the oil, you can taste the antifreeze sometimes.
Good luck. There are a bunch of us that are going to be in your present situation so I think you've generated some interest in what you discover.
Ray
James,
I repowered Osprey last year with a new Universal (Westerbeke now) M25XPB, I purchased from the Catalina dealer in my area, but I had know doubt about the old engines health. It set me back about $6,000 a very good deal, and less than a rebuild job.
The advice given to you in this forum may be more than you can handle, so I still think you need to see the water in the oil for Yourself, to know if you can trust this mehcanic.
WOW - this board is amazing - I come back next morning to all this good advice and information!
I think the first thing is that I need to spend some quality time on the boat (30 mins away) getting to know the engine better, and checking some of the things suggested above. I also need to buy a decent set of sockets, spanners, etc as our toolkit is pretty basic.
The mechanic did know of the M25XP warning, and indeed I had previously emailed Westerbeke to confirm if we needed the sleeve kit, and to ship it if necessary - no reply. Any help with a specific name at Westerbeke would be welcome. One problem is that in Australia other than Catalina, Universal is not used much (Yanmar and Volvo seem to be more popular), so parts availability here can be a problem - although I note previous posts that suggest Kubota parts can sometimes be substituted.
We are now seeking a second opinion from another diesel shop and advice on what's necessary, but with everyone's suggestions I am better armed to question. I am getting the message that a good dose of informed cynical scepticism is in order!
For the moment, let's accept the mechanic's word about water in the oil - there is a discoloured oily mess inside the valve cover and discharging from the breather, although the dipstick looks like clean oil. It seems to me we have to
(1) find out where the water has come from (raw/salt or fresh with antifreeze)
(2) fix the root cause (raw water pump, fresh water pump, any other candidates?)
(3) clean up and repair/replace any damage to valves, injectors, rings, bearings, etc.
If we need to do all this does it look like a job that will require removal of the engine, or can it be done in place?
Thanks for all your help and encouragement. I am going to buy a can of good hand cleaner - as well as find some elbow grease!
Alastair
----Nothing ventured nothing gained----
Number (1) and (2) seem good but that number (3)yuk! sounds like a rebuild.If it comes to number (3) have an reputable mechanic diagnose
the problem for you. Good luck,
(2) fix the root cause (raw water pump, fresh water pump, any other candidates?)
(3) clean up and repair/replace any damage to valves, injectors, rings, bearings, etc.
If we need to do all this does it look like a job that will require removal of the engine, or can it be done in place?
2. A head gasket is often a good place to look if coolant is getting into the crankcase. Come to think of it, a blown head gasket can be a source of compression loss as well. I haven't checked the engine manual yet to see if these little motors are wet sleeved or dry sleeved, but it was fairly common for large diesel engines to leak coolant into the crankcase past the cylinder liners with wet sleeved motors.
3. If you can get the oil pan off without pulling the motor, should be able to do an "in-frame" rebuild. It would be a pretty big job for a weekend mechanic. You would need more than the owners manual for proper torque values and clearances of rod bearings, piston ring end gaps, etc.
One step at a time or the whole thing can be overwhelming. Confirm loss of compression first, in my opinion.
Moonshadow:
Not sure how applicable this is but many, many years ago I bought a well used VW beetle. The inside of the valve covers and oil filler/breather had a heavy layer of heavy, whitish oily gunk and water in the crankcase oil was definitely not the cause. An experienced VW mechanic said this was the result of condensation building up but not being burned off. A / the previous owner must have frequently used the car for very short trips and the engine was not reaching operating temperature. He indicated air cooled engines were particularly suseptible to this but could happen with any engine. After cleaning all the gunk off I drove the car for nearly 10 years with no more buildup of the gunk.
If there is no water in the crankcase oil, the gunk in the valve cover and breather may just be a result of condensation being built up but not burned off.
Jack
Wow, some really good response to your question.
Don't know your engine. Mine's a 35, but I've heard of water getting into the engine from a plugged exhaust riser. It has a raw water inlet that will let (salt or fresh) water back into the engine if the outlet of the riser pluggs with rust or whatever.
Guys
And still the great suggestions and advice continue.
I suspect a few of the recommendations are way beyond our capability at this stage (Ron - "adjust all valves" slips off the keyboard rather too easily!). Ray - What is a dry check and a wet check on each cylinder? What do I need to do a compression test? (I haven't gone back to check out Calder since my first post).
Ray's suggestion of a head gasket (what is the significance of wet/dry sleeved cylinders?) doesn't sound good - presumably that means taking the top off the engine and getting the head machined? But I think if we get to the rebuild stage, we'll be talking to a (hopefully) good mechanic.
I like Jack's suggestion that condensation could be the culprit. Although it may be grasping at straws, we can almost sail right out from into the marina, so unless there is little wind, sometimes the engine might not be getting up to working temperature. To clean up the gunk in the top of the engine, I guess we replace the engine oil, and run the engine for long enough to flush the oil system and then replace that oil. Is there some flushing/cleaning oil designed for this?
Thanks for your advice. We plan to spend a day this weekend checking as much as we can. I'll keep this board posted of what we find.
Alastair
PS I'd be grateful if anyone can give me an email address of a real person at Westerbeke who might respond regarding the water pump sleeve kit.
I had my M25XP engine rebuilt this past summer. Had white exhaust with loud knocking noise. Four mechanics looked at the engine, the first said it was bad fuel, the second wanted to fix it in the boat, the third, after the engine was removed to his shop said he would not want to fix it but wanted to sell me a new engine. The fourth said he could rebuilt it to factory specifications for $4000.00. The price of a new engine was over $7000.00. I asked for and received reality checks from members of Fleet 12 and avoided bad decisions, especially from the guy who wanted to rebuild it in the boat. My advise, hear what the shops say but don't accept a course of action with out talking to other shops or experienced sailors like members of this forum. The engine now seems to work fine, just a wisp of white exhaust even after reaching 160 degrees. Have to speak to the shop to see what the cause is, may be nothing.
Would like to suggest that folks with repair manuals for the various versions of the Universal engines in our boats consider scanning them and providing them to the webmaster so that we'd have on-line access.
Have found the Torrison site to be one of the best diesel repair resources on the web, but since we've got a limited number of engine types, there's no reason we couldn't consolodate some of the experience of our members in our own "diesel repair forum."
Unfortunately, I don't have the computer equipment or skill to pull this off, so I can only offer a suggestion! But if there is anyone on the board with the time and inclination to do this, perhaps we could all find a way to contribute.
Since their aren't any mechanics at sea--we have no choice but to be our own engineers.
Cheers,
Mike
Alastair,
Might be worth giving that original mechanic another call and asking him what the compression readings were for each cylinder. He might have even written them down on the valve cover with an indelible ink pen. If he can tell you what the values were, it would increase my confidence in him/her a bit. Generally speaking, compression values should be within 10% of each other.
Generally speaking again, a compression test is done by holding the tip of a pressure gauge tight against the fuel injector hole. Usually takes two people, one to hold the gauge, the other to crank the engine. Pop out all the injectors, hold the gauge to one of the injector holes, crank the engine around a few times then record the reading. Repeat for the other cylinders. That’s the dry check. If you find one cylinder with compression considerably lower than the other cylinders, squirt some oil down that injector hole and crank the engine a few revolutions so the oil can coat the cylinder walls. Check the compression on that hole again. That’s the wet check. A substantial increase in compression on that “dead hole†would indicate that the rings aren’t sealing well on that cylinder. Little or no increase would indicate that the compression is leaking past the valves or headgasket.
Diesel engines develop a considerable amount of pressure in each cylinder. My recollection is that pressures may be around 400 psi, compared to an old V.W. engine with compression around 110 psi. So it will take a beefy compression gauge to do the job. The fuel systems in diesels also develop some high pressures to inject the fuel into the cylinders. Need to be careful working around those injector lines while doing the tests. Pulling the fuel shut off cable should take care of that problem.
A quick and dirty compression test technique that I use when kicking the tires on a used car or boat is to disable the ignition system (pull the fuel shut off cable) then crank the engine a few revolutions. Because you’ve turned off the fuel, it won’t start and you can listen to the motor as the starter cranks it through several revolutions. What you’re listening for is an even cadence in cranking or the sound of any high pressure air escaping the valves in the case of an uneven cranking sound. Hard to judge the value of that test, but it’s a test that I’ve used for over twenty years and I’ve been able to identify some motors with compression problems doing it.
Found this page surfing around. http://www.kcpp.com/remanufactured_engines.htm (http://www.kcpp.com/remanufactured_engines.htm)
Offers rebuilt kubota engines for less than $3K. One would need to remove alternator, raw water pump, exhaust maniforld, etc and then reassemble, but sholdn't be difficult.
Just a thought,
Jeff
Alastair,
In your first post you mentioned that your engine is a M25XP. The service bulletin regarding the cam sleeve at the C36 website says the the effected engines in the M25 series are the M25XPB and M25XPBC. You should be able to read the bulletin carefully and determine if your engine is effected. (I doubt it because of the age of your boat). Below is a link to the website:
http://catalina36.org/productrecall_camshaftsleeve.htm (http://catalina36.org/productrecall_camshaftsleeve.htm)
Good Luck.
Alastair,
Another approach is to find and eliminate the source of the water ingress and deal with that issue (is it exists) and then run the engine until it no longer runs. Replacement at that time, perhaps years down the road, will be less stressful.
You indicated that you are a stones throw from sailing waters. That leads me to believe that you only need the engine to get in and out of your slip. If low speed stalling is a major problem, increase the idle. I get the feeling that no one has a clue as to the root cause of your problem. Doing nothing may be an acceptable course of action at this juncture.
Jim Kane
We spent half of Sunday poking around the engine, checked a few things out and confirmed the following:
. there is grey oily gunk all around inside the valve cover - looks awfully like an oil/water emulsion
. the Sherwood raw water pump looks original, with a lot of rust on the mounting tube (don't know if that's the correct terminology) behind the pump casting (we didn't want to dismantle the pump in case everything fell apart on us because of the rust)
. drained a cup of oil from the sump - it appeared to be clean black oil with no water in it
. the dip stick oil is also clean, but the level is above the full mark
. we were not able to confirm or otherwise the reported low compression in the middle cylinder
What do you guys think of Our conclusions:
. with the rust on the water pump mount, it looks as though the pump shaft seal has been leaking (although this might have been due to a previous episode, as we had not noticed any water under the engine until the current problem) - but the weep hole may be blocked
. if the water/oil gunk is restricted to the top of the engine, the water leak is where it can only get to there, and not down into the crankcase, and is slow enough for the water to vapourise in the cylinders when the engine is running - but ... why isn't the sump oil being pumped up and flushing the gunk down into the crankcase?
While we were on the boat, Max Cooper (Fandango) came down the marina to introduce himself and offer us the name of a mechanic has had good experience with. We have contacted the mechanic to seek another opinion on fixing the problem.
At this stage, until we are convinced otherwise, our inclination is to get a mechanic to take the head off with the engine in the boat, clean up and inspect, particularly checking if a blown head gasket may be involved. If necessary replace the complete raw water pump, or at least the seals and the mounting tube. Also inspect valves and seats in case this is the cause of low compression in the middle cylinder (which still needs confirmation).
If the inspection suggests the gunk has got further down the engine, I guess we then are faced with removal of the engine for a strip down and rebuild - in which case we also consider replacing all wear components in order to get value from the labour cost of the exercise. That way we would hope to have an engine good for many more years.
We also need to look carefully at the heat exchanger - there is corrosion on connection points. I seem to recall previous posts that may assist on this one.
So, we are waiting for another mechanic's opinion until we decide what to do. Grateful for any further comments and suggestions in the light of what we have found so far.
Alastair
I think you have a combination of simple problems. The overfilled oil will cause foaming of the oil in the pan. This foam will seek escape through the breather causing it to collect in the valve cover gasket. Internal combustion process makes water, unfortunately I don't remember the chemical process. The oil absorbs this water. As the oil heats up, it releases the water vapor which also tries to exit the engine through the breather. I think these are the cause of the gray mess. You said you only use the engine in and around the dock, I would assume that is mostly low engine speed maneuvering. Idling a desiel for extended periods causes the engine to load up with carbon. I think this is the cause of the poor idle. If it were me I would change the oil/filter. Fill to the proper level and then go motoring. Let the engine get up to temp and then work it hard for an hour or so. If it is still running poorly when your finished, get the second opinion.
Alaster,
Good job,I think your on the right track. Water, if any, is in the crankcase will not necessarily hurt the engine ( probably not at all ) . Just change the oil and filter. Water (oily mess) in the top of the engine can be cleaned by removing the valve cover, and the mess removed with a rag ( WD-40 can be sprayed into the hard to reach areas ).
I would never start an engine and shut it down without the engine reaching the proper operating temperature ( to burn off condensation ). This will prolong the life of any engine.
Please have a compression check done prior to any other engine work! A good mechanic can do this. If a cylinder is low he can do a cylinder leak test. This is done by filling the cylinder with compressed air (like a tire inter tube) to isolate the leak i.e.valves, head gasket, or rings. Good luck,
I hear those of you with the M25XP mentioning a 'fuel pump filter'. I have an M35B, does anyone know if the M35B has this fuel pump filter?? I only know of two, the Racor and the engine filter. Where's the third??
Thanks!!!
Roc-
It's a screen that's inside the fuel pump itself.
Steve is correct and I should have been a bit more clear in my description. I'm not sure about later boats, but mine (Hull #52, M25 engine) was configured such that the fuel flow came first to the electic fuel pump with it's built in screen. From there the fuel went to the primary filter (Dahl - in my case, Racor in many others) and then on to the engine mounted fuel filter. Early on I, like many, changed this routing such that the first line of defense is was primary filter and then on to the electric fuel pump. Having done that, the 'screen' filter in the electic fuel pump mostly became irrelevant because the primary filter was far more discriminant in filtering. But it's important, and very easy to check out and clean, the screen within the electic pump in case it's clogged. One other thing to consider is the fact that the fuel pickup tube within the tank also has a screen assuming the PO hasn't already removed it. Again, relatively easy to check and clean. Personally I have mixed feelings about removing that pickup screen as many have done.
RACOR and fuel filters
Find on racor:
http://c34.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=srch&s=329609511&findw=racor (http://c34.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=srch&s=329609511&findw=racor)
with lots of sidebars on fuel filters, etc.
Stu