Hi. 1986 M25
We have never had to bleed this engine. But now she wont start. I assumed the separate electric Facet fuel pump basically made the engine
self bleeding. But first start of the season she ran for 30 seconds then stalled. Its trying to fire up again but wont. We have new primary and secondary filters, everything else seems ok. Voltage, cranking speed, glow plugs ok. Next steps? Does it need bleeding? She always starts right up and purs like a kittren. All the upgrades have been done. Thanks
If you have the round Facet fuel pump there is a filter inside it. Check that too.
QuoteBut first start of the season she ran for 30 seconds then stalled.
Is the fuel shut off at the tank?
QuoteWe have new primary and secondary filters,
When the filters are changed, need to get air out of the lines. ie bleed
Jim
ok, I started at the Facet pump and systematically bled all filters and junctions up to the bleeder knob.
I opened the knob (CCW) all the way. Nothing came out. No air and no fuel.
I unscrewed the cap holding the bleeder knob in place. Basically removing the knob. Turned on the electric pump and had good fuel flow.
So I have fuel getting to the injector pump.
Next step.. is fuel getting to the injectors?
Nope.
I loosend the injector nuts and cranked the engine.
Dry hole.
It was suggested I make sure the stop cable was fully retracted. Even 1/8 inch coudl keep the engine from starting.
The stop lever seems to be all the way against its stop (forward) so I think that is good.
Unfortunately things seem to be pointing to the injector pump. But it seems odd it would fail after just starting and running fine,
It always starts right up and did so the other day. Ran for about a minute prior launching and we shut it off.
Now it wont start.
Anything I am missing?
QuoteAnything I am missing?
Sounds like you did your troubleshooting well. The one thing that you didn't mention is your throttle cable and throttle lever. Is that working correctly?
Hope that helps,
Jim
With all the troubleshooting and cranking have you been draining the muffler?
Have not drained the muffler but we are on land and running out of a bucket, and then took the hose out of the bucket for further cranking.
Will check that but it seems its a fuel delivery issue. Yep on cables.
007 : There is a short hose coming out of the engine mounted fuel filter - are you getting fuel out of that hose?
If so, you just might have a clogged Injector Pump/lines to the injectors. Then you'll have remove that injection pump and look for that clog. If all looks OK with the pump then blow thru the 1st fuel line backwards and see if it won't clear. If clear then take it to a diesel truck repair and have the pump checked.
Removal is not the difficult - I wrote a Mainsheet Tech note article on that very subject!!
A few thoughts
Thank you
007 : There is a short hose coming out of the engine mounted fuel filter - are you getting fuel out of that hose? YES
I get fuel up to the burled knob
but how could a clog item make it past 3 filters!
Facet pump filter ? micron
Racor filter 10 micron
Engine primary 3 micron
Ill look for your article
I dod find this today from a guy who removed his pump
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWGgLEWiRoo
If so, you just might have a clogged Injector Pump/lines to the injectors. Then you'll have remove that injection pump and look for that clog. If all looks OK with the pump then blow thru the 1st fuel line backwards and see if it won't clear. If clear then take it to a diesel truck repair and have the pump checked.
Removal is not the difficult - I wrote a Mainsheet Tech note article on that very subject!!
A few thoughts
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Ron, Apache #788
Thank you for your help everyone.
After lots of bleeding we got her going.
Now... I hope we dont have a new air leak to track down. :?
007 : Any idea what happened?? A slug of water? or BIG bubble of air??
Any thoughts ?
No idea where the air came from. Hope it dosnt come back.
Funny when I had the first injector nut completely off and cranked the engine to bleed, the engine began to start on two cylinders.
Earlier I had the bleeder valve completely open, completely closed, it dosnt do anything. no air, no bubbles, no fuel. I took it off
completely and bled.
oo7 : When you have the bleed Valve completely closed (key ON so the fuel pump is working) there should be NO fuel coming out the fuel return line - same if the engine is running key switch ON.
That's why I always let the bleed valve 1/4 turn ON so there was some bleed and I had a self bleeding system!!
A few thoughts
yes but when I have the bleed knob open and the fuel pump on, there is no fuel coming out.. Its not bleeding.
Quote from: Catalina007 on May 14, 2023, 06:24:39 AM
yes but when I have the bleed knob open and the fuel pump on, there is no fuel coming out.. Its not bleeding.
What fuel are you expecting "to come out?" That's not how that assembly works. No fuel "comes out," it simply bypasses the injector pump and goes back to the fuel tank via the return fuel hose.
My setup has only a fuel supply line going into part 33, the bleeder knob. As shown in the diagram
If that knob is open (CCW) and the fuel pump is running, nothing comes out of it.
I would expect to get either air, bubbly fuel, or fuel, or some combination of those.
I don't have a return line coming out of the bleeder assemply as shown in the photo 2 which is not my boat
and what which I believe is what you are describing
Quote from: Catalina007 on May 15, 2023, 11:41:50 AM
My setup has only a fuel supply line going into part 33, the bleeder knob. As shown in the diagram
If that knob is open (CCW) and the fuel pump is running, nothing comes out of it.
I would expect to get either air, bubbly fuel, or fuel, or some combination of those.
I don't have a return line coming out of the bleeder assemply as shown in the photo 2 which is not my boat
and what which I believe is what you are describing
That's the correct part manual, the Fuel Camshaft Group. Part 34 is the fuel inlet joint and part 1 is the injector pump.
Your
expectation of air, bubbly fuel or fuel or some combination is just incorrect, that's all. It appears from further inspection of the diagram (and thanks for that) that the infamous Knurled Knob, part 33, bleed valve assembly, introduces incoming fuel to the injector pump. I was wrong about the fuel return part of what I said, and in fact have been wrong about this for decades! :shock: :shock: :shock:
Functionally then I can't answer specifically how it works. All I know is that nothing should ever come out anywhere near that assembly when you open the nut/Knurled Knob. Somehow it introduces the fuel and air into the injector pump but if you follow the Bleeding 101 steps using the knurled knob and the electric fuel pump you will get all the air out of the system.
Perhaps someone who is more into the guts of the details of this assembly would chime and and explain it to and for us.
That's one of the beauties of this engine: you don't have to slop any fuel all over your engine to bleed it, it is the simplest and cleanest engine to bleed (other than 100% self-bleeding ones of course!). I've written this before: when I first got our boat 25 years ago, I was afraid to change the fuel filter because I knew I'd have to bleed the engine and had read so many horror stories on the internet in its infancy. Once I learned how simple it was, we made sure to document it, hence the Bleeding 101 topic. Sometimes I hear folks say you have to open injectors to bleed engines and when they share that they have M25 engines, I just wanna pull my hair out, but I send them a link to Bleeding 101! :clap
Guys & )007 : The fuel return line come out of the "banjo" on the aft (#3) injector on the M25/25XP engines
Years ago I mentioned to Joe Joyce (Westerbeke Service Manager) that I ran my M25XP engine with the bleed valve 1/4 turn open he commented that I had a "Self Bleeding" engine.
Somehow? the Westerbeke engines without a bleed valve like the M35BC and M25B engines -- are self bleeding!! :shock:
A few thoughts
Yes on my engine the return line to the tank comes out of the aft injector.
I bled to the top nut on the injector pump.
I also bled the first injector, but I think teh top of the IP did it. .
Quote from: Catalina007 on May 15, 2023, 04:27:37 PM
Yes on my engine the return line to the tank comes out of the aft injector.
I bled to the top nut on the injector pump.
I also bled the first injector, but I think teh top of the IP did it. .
I think what we've been trying to explain to you all along was all that work you did wasn't needed. All you needed to do was turn the knurled knob open run the pump for awhile until the pitch changed, closed the knob and done.
Opened knob and ran pump for a long time.
Pitch never changed.
Engine wouldnt start
Bled as deescribed
Engine started
Just changed the fuel filter(getting ready for the North Channel)opened the knurled knob and started the pump for a few minutes and waited for the pitch of the fuel pump to change, closed the knob and started the engine. This was on the hard and sitting all winter.
Just as Stu has described.
Ive changed the filters many times and never had to bleed anything it woud start right up.
Now, my electric pump runs at the same speed always. It dosnt pressurize the system and slow down.
Woudnt this make sense as it would just be recirculating, effectively polishing, back to the tank via return lines?
007 : I'd check all of the hose connections from the fuel tank, Racor, Electric fuel pump, engine filter, injection pump to the input to each injector.
That electric fuel pump pulsing should slow down as the fuel lines are pressurized !!
A few thoughts
yes i agree. But does the electric pump pressurize just to the bottom of the injector pump? O :sleepy:r through the injector pump and to the injector banjo return lines?
sorry to be so pedantic - just trying to understand the system and everyone has a different theory.
007 : I believe that the electric fuel pump only pressurizes to the injection pump. Then the injection SUPER PRESSURIZES the fuel to each injector based on the timing.
A thought
Quote
Functionally then I can't answer specifically how it works. All I know is that nothing should ever come out anywhere near that assembly when you open the nut/Knurled Knob. Somehow it introduces the fuel and air into the injector pump but if you follow the Bleeding 101 steps using the knurled knob and the electric fuel pump you will get all the air out of the system.
Perhaps someone who is more into the guts of the details of this assembly would chime and and explain it to and for us.
Happy to. The knob and teat on it bleeds the fuel train BEFORE the I.P.
Early M25s had a bleed SCREW, that when opened would need fuel all over the engine if not done carefully. Later M25s (and XPs) switch to the knob and return the bled fuel to the return line.
I posted many times that (IMO) that is a stupid arrangement because one cannot SEE the fuel that is being bled (foamy? dirty? strong stream? weak stream? what is it?).
I switched to the knob (from the OEM screw simply for ease) but do not bleed to the tank I just catch the fuel in a cup when I bleed. Then I know the condition of the fuel. I've recommended many times that peeps with the Universal setup switch it -- (IMO only) it works better and makes more sense.