Hi guys,
I want to mount an additional cleat on the port side, above the cockpit locker. This is to secure the roller reefing line because I just don't trust the existing cam cleat in hard weather with the foresail well reefed.
I have a couple of questions!
What should I use to bed the cleat to the deck? Some kind of silicone?
On the underside, I'm debating whether to use a glassfiber backing plate or just penny washers. This cleat isn't going to be taking huge loads, so I'm thinking that a full-blown backing plate would be overkill.
Any thoughts or suggestions?
Keel : I'd go with a couple of wide (fender) washers. As You mentioned that is not high loading on that cleat!!
A thought
My 2 cents on the backing plate, if you're just installing a standard horn cleat, I would want that cleat to hold up if a dockhand threw a line around it to hold you in a storm. I don't think I'd use penny washers, Id go with fender washers or the fiberglass backer.
And I think it's interesting that you have a clam cleat there. I have just a horn cleat for my furler line and I wish I had a cam cleat. Trying to lock down and release a horn cleat while the genoa is flapping around can be challenging.
My goto sealant these days is buytl tape.
Rob
My MKI had a black horn cleat on the outside of the winch combing (still there) However, I don't use it now, as I installed a combo block with attached cam cleat on my push pit. It leads better, works good, especially if need to furl from behind the helm.
I have a block and a cleat mounted to the pushpit rail. The swivel block both turns the line up to the block or towards the cockpit for furling and unfurling.
Many folks have chosen to use a ratcheting block for this purpose. After 20 years with this rig, I haven't felt the need and sailed in San Francisco with it for 15 of those 20 years.
The rail mounted cleat is small, large enough for the 3/8" furling line. There really isn't a whole lot of load on it. Sorry, no photo.
As far as a coaming cleat, Rob's point is very important to consider. No one would ever use my rail cleat for that! :D
Given the input, KG, you might want to simply consider adding a rail cleat just above your cam cleat if it is like Noah's. There is great merit in the caution of having a horn cleat before the cam cleat, I believe it should be after the cam cleat.
Here is what I have. It is a harken ratchet cleat with an adjustable cam cleat. I see no reason to have a horn cleat. If needed, the mooring cleat is in line with the reef line and could be used in the event of a problem. I had TWO horn cleats installed on the coaming. One was nearly ripped out and the other was loose and leaking into the lazzerette. I have removed both and filled the holes. Now my lazzerette is dry and the coaming is less cluttered.
Quote from: KeelsonGraham on June 07, 2022, 11:54:09 AM
What should I use to bed the cleat to the deck? Some kind of silicone?
On the underside, I'm debating whether to use a glassfiber backing plate or just penny washers. This cleat isn't going to be taking huge loads, so I'm thinking that a full-blown backing plate would be overkill.
What you bed it with is not as important as properly potting the thru-fastener holes, and countersinking those holes and the underneath of the cleat base before you use whatever bedding.
YBYC but IIWMB I'd never use sillycone unless there was a specific need for that product (VERY RARELY there is.)
Butyl is my go to unless for some reason I need to use a sealant "from a tube."
As far as backing certainly the large diameter fender washers (they come different ODs for a given ID) or a plate — "you never get a second chance to overkill something on the first try"
See Rodds (mainesail) website for how to properly pot the thru holed.
Thanks guys,
Excellent advice as always. A rail mount ratchet cleat might just do it. I'd prefer to do something that didn't involve drilling the superstructure.
Is potting really necessary in this part of the boat? I'd assumed that potting was only needed when on the wood/balsa core parts.
The coaming top amd inner and outter sides are fully glass. I would not see a need to pot any penetrations in these areas. Once you get to the flat deck area outboard of the coaming you are into the plywood core area.
"Fully glass" doesn't mean "not attackable." Think, "Blisters.".
Why would anyone want to spend the time and money (a lot more than potting two 1/4" holes) to barrier coat?
Polyester resin substrate is hydrophilic, loves to lap up water, and turn to basically mush (I call it wet gypsum drywall.) I got that tee shirt.
Is the potential high for very localized, non critical damage? ...Absolutely.
Is the potential low for water getting to the substrate? ...Absolutely.
Is it worth the couple hrs saved "worth it" not to pot? ...Depends. Probably not if the owner is among the "I don't have the time to hold my preheat button more than 5 seconds," persuasion.
It's always a YBYC type of thing.
Learn something new everyday
FWIW - The outboard side of the cockpit coaming surface is ~ 20 degrees from vertical slope. Any water will run off and not pool around the fasteners. I don't see a need to pot the holes. Slightly countersink the holes, and use the Bed-Butyl Tape from Mainesail if you have it. The stuff is an excellent sealant. Like others have suggested, I would use fender washers for this application as well. As Ken said, YBYC.
Take a look at this thread, my reply is number 8. Works well for me, much easier to reef and never had it slip.
https://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,10042.msg76931.html#msg76931
Jim
When I added a roller furler on my little Gloucester 19 my rigger said absolutely put a horn cleat on there. Don't trust a cam cleat with springs and moving parts that can fail....
Keel : I agree with Ted. I'd advise to stick with a cleat. Not that difficult to use and it's a positive simple tie down!!
A thought
FWIW - Regarding the statement "don't trust a cam cleat", my other boat is a Prindle 16 I bought new in 1983. It's mainsheet is rigged with a Harken triple with a cam cleat. The jib sheets are rigged with a Port and Stbd Harken single each with a cam cleat. I've sailed that boat off and on for 30+ years both offshore in the Pacific Ocean, and in Mission Bay. Based on the effort I've needed to adjust the sails in various wind conditions, I believe the continuous loads are higher on my Prindle 16 than adjusting the headsail roller furler of my 1987 Catalina 34. Never had a problem with a cam cleat, and never felt unsafe (at least about the cam cleat :D). YBYC
I have to agree regarding the cam cleat. Its design inherently tightens its grip with load.
To be clear, I didn't say I don't trust cam cleats. Its just that I don't trust the one on my boat.
Thank you for all the advice above. It led me to a great solution - a stanchion cleat.
Coincidentally, two weeks ago the Harken ratchet block with cam cleat I used for my furling line exploded spilling torlon bearings all over the deck. After seeing Noah's set-up, I ordered his pushpit mounted block w/cam cleat from Garhauer and mounted it in the same location. It is a much improved solution and allows for easier, more ergonomic, furling from behind the helm.
Thanks Noah!
Patches
Quote from: Jon W on June 13, 2022, 07:05:49 PM
FWIW - Regarding the statement "don't trust a cam cleat", my other boat is a Prindle 16 I bought new in 1983. It's mainsheet is rigged with a Harken triple with a cam cleat. The jib sheets are rigged with a Port and Stbd Harken single each with a cam cleat. I've sailed that boat off and on for 30+ years both offshore in the Pacific Ocean, and in Mission Bay. Based on the effort I've needed to adjust the sails in various wind conditions, I believe the continuous loads are higher on my Prindle 16 than adjusting the headsail roller furler of my 1987 Catalina 34. Never had a problem with a cam cleat, and never felt unsafe (at least about the cam cleat :D). YBYC
You're always there when using those cam cleats. When you furl the jib and leave the boat no one is around if the cam lets loose....
Hi,
I'm jumping into this discussion for a question:
I got myself a pulley with a cam cleat to manage my furler.
The block is a Harken 40mm Single Swivel Block with Carbo-Cam. Specs are: Maximum working load is 150 lbs and the Breaking load (lbs) is 300 lbs.
In your opinion, are these measures too weak to absorb the load on the line? (Particularly if the jib is partially furled?)
The one I use has a safe working load of 1,500 lbs. for 3/8 in. line.
https://www.garhauermarine.com/shop/stanchions-accessories/stanchion-blocks/stanchion-swivel-block-with-cleat-sb-25c/
Yes Noah, I saw those Gaurhauer blocks with their great specs.
Unfortunately they are hard to get here in the East coast of Canada.
I can't find any supplier.
And getting them directly from Garhauer with shipping is unreasonably costly.
I'll think I'll return the Harken and find a better option.
Thanks