I realize you northern and east coast guys see your bottom every six months for months at a time but here in SoCal for me at least it happens only once every four years and only for a few days so it's kind of a big deal. Also this is the first time I'm having the yard do the work, with ever increasing CA regulations it's just gotten to be too much of a PITA and they are openly trying to discourage DIY.
What I found amazing is we had discussed cutlass bearing replacement since it's original and 36 years old but after inspection the mechanic said it was fine and he saw no reason to replace it. He said worst case it'll be fine at least until the next haulout. I asked how this could be and he said whoever did the original alignment did an outstanding job. Who said Catalina doesn't know how to build boats!
What impressed me was by recommending not replacing the cutlass bearing they just saved me $500!
Four years is a good long run between haul-outs. I go MAX three years in San Diego—even with a monthly diver. The paints are getting less effective and the ocean is warming, so the timing may get even shorter in years to come. They MAY ban copper paint in my Shelter Island Yacht Basin soon. The port imposed a three-month moratorium recently on in-the-water cleaning to assess copper loading in the Bay—pending a potential ban. No published results yet.
Monthly cleaning? Wow... I do 6mo up here in the PNW.
Quote from: waughoo on May 06, 2022, 01:05:51 PM
Monthly cleaning? Wow... I do 6mo up here in the PNW.
I moved from San Francisco to British Columbia (Vancouver Island) in 2016. I used to haulout every two or three years and had quarterly bottom scubs. We don't have "regular" divers in our marina or neighborhood. I last hauled in SF in 2016, 2020 here in BC. We shall see...
Thing to remember is that the water here is significantly colder (47F vs. 57F) and it is most likely much warmer water in San Diego.
I've also found my HX zinc lasts longer here, too, 6+ months here vs. 4 months there.
Quote from: scgunner on May 06, 2022, 10:52:06 AM
I realize you northern and east coast guys see your bottom every six months for months at a time but here in SoCal for me at least it happens only once every four years and only for a few days so it's kind of a big deal. Also this is the first time I'm having the yard do the work, with ever increasing CA regulations it's just gotten to be too much of a PITA and they are openly trying to discourage DIY.
What I found amazing is we had discussed cutlass bearing replacement since it's original and 36 years old but after inspection the mechanic said it was fine and he saw no reason to replace it. He said worst case it'll be fine at least until the next haulout. I asked how this could be and he said whoever did the original alignment did an outstanding job. Who said Catalina doesn't know how to build boats!
What impressed me was by recommending not replacing the cutlass bearing they just saved me $500!
$500 in So Cal for a marina job bearing? I dont believe it. Maybe $1500 !!
My diver charges me $50 per month for my hull cleaning and another $10 (total) to change my zincs when required. I supply the zincs; shaft, strut, and Flexofold prop. He is a good find; a skilled diver who is trustworthy—plus he owns a 25-foot sailboat, too!
Well one thing I've learned through years of boat ownership is if it sounds to good to be true it usually is. They couldn't break the prop shaft loose from the rear coupling necessitating cutting the shaft. So not only will I be getting a new prop shaft but a cutlass bearing after all. Frankly when hauling out I'd be surprised if I didn't find any surprises. Well that's boating folks!
Noah,
I was originally on a three year schedule but found I could stretch it to four without ill effects. I haven't really noticed the ocean warming at least in SoCal, some years it's warmer and some years it's cooler otherwise about the same. If they ban cooper in your Marina you'll either have to find a new Marina or double up on your diving service.
For you cold water guys in warm water monthly cleaning is just cost of doing business like you guys having to pull your boat out of the water in the winter.
Catalina007,
Whether you believe it or not that's what they're are charging me. Actually the exact number was $485, it might be that price because I'm getting bottom paint along with some other items so it might be part of a package. If I was hauling out to only replace the bearing I'm sure the price would be higher.
Kevin : While you are on the hard you might want to lower that rudder and gouge out where the column enters the layup and reseal with 3M5200. Then empty the water from inside the SS column.
A few thoughts
Ron,
I can't really drop the rudder all the way since I'm sitting on concrete. I have dropped it to the ground on occasion for maintenance and I drain the column water with a drill pump and some 1/4" tubing.
Quote from: scgunner on May 08, 2022, 08:06:01 AM
Ron,
I can't really drop the rudder all the way since I'm sitting on concrete. I have dropped it to the ground on occasion for maintenance and I drain the column water with a drill pump and some 1/4" tubing.
Seal it from water getting in there in the first place!
Kevin : Put a thin block of wood under the rudder, then remove the emergency tiller cap, wiggle the wheel and the rudder will drop down 3/4inches. Then you have access to where the column enters the layup. That is the area that needs to be gouged out and resealed. That will stop the water from entering the rudder lay up and then in to the column itself!!
Then remove the block of wood and pry up the rudder (while wiggling the wheel) till the rudder is back in place!
A few thoughts
Gunner— why did the yard feel it was necessary to disconnect the shaft from the boat in the first place?
>>> $500 in So Cal for a marina job bearing? I dont believe it. Maybe $1500 !!<<<
Clearing about $460 for an hour's work w/ a StrutPro is a pretty good hourly rate, I'd say.
Ron,
That sounds like an excellent idea unfortunately I'm not allowed to touch the boat while it's out of the water. I can ask them about it but I fear the cap is frozen in place and will have to be broken off and replaced.
Noah,
I wanted to replace the rubber tube where the prop shaft enters the hull. It's 36 years old rubber, the mechanic said while it did have some cracking it's probably OK. I don't know about you but when it comes to boats "probably" doesn't work for me. So I'm basically I'm paying $1000 for peace of mind. I've found buying piece of mind is usually expensive but always worth it.
Ken,
And don't forget the prop shaft will be out too! Good work if you can get it.
Gunner—The "rubber tube", AKA the cutlass bearing, will come out without removing the shaft orthe rudder. Why did you have them remove the shaft?
Maybe he's talking about the hose clamped onto the shaft log that the packing gland attaches to.
That's the one I'm talking about. If you can't break the rear trans coupling loose from the prop shaft there's no way to remove the shaft short of removing the motor or cutting the shaft (they cut the shaft). They'll still have to break that coupling loose but that's probably much easier to do on a work bench.
AH HA... that's the "shaft log hose". Yep, no way to get that out with shaft connected to tranny. Dang!
They will likely replace the coupler. I would ask them about getting a split coupler to allow for future removal.
Well Top Gun is finally back in the water with new bottom paint, new S/S prop shaft, new cutlass bearing, and new rear coupling. Amazingly for all this they didn't charge me a penny. However the souvenir T-shirt cost $6,400.
Oy! Must be good cotton... make sure you don't put it in the dryer.
I've been back in the water now for about two weeks but still having problems with the packing gland. With the packing nut backed out so the drip rate is nearly a steady stream the nut still gets very warm (not hot) to the touch. The funny thing is when I run it in reverse the nut cools down, figure that one out!
I think the yard may have over tightened the packing nut which compressed the packing too much for it to rebound when the nut is loosened. Right now I think my options are replace the packing or run it as is to see if running it will work in the packing and eventually solve the problem.
My understanding is once the nut has been overtightened the packing will not "rebound". You will have to dig it out and repack. You can do this in the water just be careful.
https://marinehowto.com/re-packing-a-traditional-stuffing-box/
Noah,
I'm beginning to lean that way. I slid the nut back and wiggled it on the shaft in an attempt to loosen the packing, it actually worked and had the effect of lowering the temp from hot to very warm but it's still not where I want to be temp wise.
BTW, thanks for posting the article it was very helpful.
Kevin : I believe that you need to replace the packing. You can look in the Mainsheet tech notes. I wrote an article about replacing the packing while in the water - not that hard to do. I'd recommend the Gore dripless packing - it works great for me.
Just tighten the nut gently - by hand. Then I always tell people to make subsequent adjustments of a 1/16 of a turn - just a tiny bit at a time. Of course checking the nut temp in-between. Warm is OK , not Hot!!
A few thoughts
Thanks for the replies guys,
I just ran the motor in gear for an hour at 2000rpm so I'll have a baseline temp after I replace the packing. I got a high temp of 136 degrees. I'm going to repack with standard flax packing, it's worked great for me for decades and I've long ago given up on the dripless thing. As long as it doesn't drip more than 15 or 20 times a minute in gear and 3 or 4 times a minute out of gear I'm golden.
FYI- I use GTU packing (Western Pacific Trading) with my SS shaft and almost NO drips—even when running--and still cool enough to hand hold the stuffing box nut. Installed FIVE years ago and never replaced. Just saying... Also, no corrosion nor scaring.
QuoteFYI- I use GTU packing (Western Pacific Trading) with my SS shaft and almost NO drips—even when running--and still cool enough to hand hold the stuffing box nut. Installed FIVE years ago and never replaced. Just saying... Also, no corrosion nor scaring.
My experience exactly. except original brass shaft. A small adjustment in spring and monitoring bilge, that's it. Probably replace at 7-10 years.
Jim
Kevin : You really must believe Jim, Me and Noah. It is a real mistake NOT to at least try the Gore packing!! Almost the same price as the flax with little to no drips'!! Eliminate your stinky bilge!!
A few thoughts :thumb:
I'll add another endorsement for Gore packing, but I understand your desire to go back to to something you know works. I put some in a long time ago (10+ years?) and only replaced it this spring. I replaced it because of symptoms similar to yours: more drip than before and too much heat when I tightened it enough to stop the drip.
Any chance the yard used the wrong size or somehow incorrectly installed it? Hopefully they'll fix it given the value of your new t-shirt!
So that's a big thumbs up from the crew for the GTU. I would like to use the GTU but my concern after reading Noah's posted article is the possible galvanic problem as I just spent $1,000 for a new S/S prop shaft.
Right now I've got three rings of 3/16" flax and after an hour it's still running hot. While I've got you guys here is everyone using 3/16" and three rings? Right now I'm wondering if I should go with two rings of 3/16" or try 1/4" packing.
In my stuffing box I used 1/4 in. GTU. Sorry but I can't remember how many layers. As far as corrosion concerns, I would be "slightly" concerned if you had the old bronze shaft—not so much with the SS one. I have had NO issues with corrosion (that I can see anyway). I had my SS shaft removed two years after installing it using GTU because I needed to replace my strut. At that time I walked it back over to the machine shop that made it for me 2 yrs earlier, to inspect (because I could so why not). He said it "was still in brand new shape" but checked it over on his "truing equipment" too—all was good! My shaft is A22 SS alloy.
QuoteRight now I've got three rings of 3/16" flax and after an hour it's still running hot. While I've got you guys here is everyone using 3/16" and three rings? Right now I'm wondering if I should go with two rings of 3/16" or try 1/4" packing.
Packing size and number of rings depends on the manufacture of the shaft log. I don't think Catalina always used the same ones. FWIW Shamrock takes 3/16 and two rings. Tried to put in third ring but wouldn't fit.
Not a difficult job at all. Don Casey describes very well how to in "This Old Boat". My personal favorite how to fix boat book.
Jim
https://marinehowto.com/re-packing-a-traditional-stuffing-box/
With much information and helpful suggests provided here's what I've done. The yard installed three rings and it ran hot I thought due to being overly compressed, I replaced them with three rings and the nut installed loosely it still ran hot. So following Jim's post I removed the third ring and that did the trick, it's now running cool although I'll still have to adjust the drip rate, but that's just a matter of walking in the packing nut to achieve the best possible drip rate.
Thanks again guys for all the help.
Kevin : I believe that in the early production (1986-1990) Catalina uses a packing gland that needed 3 rings of 3/16" packing. That's what I used. After 10 years I added a 4th ring of Gore to mine and it's still basically dripless (warm, but not hot)!! The key is in the spring to only make SLIGHT turns (maybe as small as 1/32) to retighten to stop any drips!!
A thought
Interestingly, CD sells only 3/16" to replace prop shaft stuffin'
Makes ya wonder.
Ron,
Yes, they certainly can be fussy little bastards!
Ken,
It's nice to know that's what CD recommends, although Jim might have a point about Catalina using different nuts, when I put three rings in mine there was almost no space left and I could only get one turn on the nut before it started compressing the packing.
Every boat situation is different. I used 1/4 inch in my stuffing box (confirmed by checking leftover packaging today). However, don't know how many layers. I remember some time ago I loaned Jon W. my set of stuffing box wrenches (bought from Catalina Direct) and they did NOT fit his... lots of variables there.
Kevin : Over the years I have learned that in plumbing (boat or home) NEVER back up. Always end with tightening!!
A thought
Quote from: scgunner on June 08, 2022, 05:18:56 PM
Ron,
Yes, they certainly can be fussy little bastards!
Ken,
It's nice to know that's what CD recommends, although Jim might have a point about Catalina using different nuts, when I put three rings in mine there was almost no space left and I could only get one turn on the nut before it started compressing the packing.
To be clear I didn't say CD recommends anything, only that CD sells one size.
Flax always gets a warm welcome.
In the over 25 years I have had my boat and all the Mainsheet articles since 1987, and all previous forum discussions and tech wiki articles, the conclusion is clear, as Noah said:
Each boat situation is different.
In my stuffing box wiki, I noted that my boat manual said a 1" shaft with 3 rings of 3/16" (Page 39, detail 4.4.2). I also suggested checking your own boat manual, because there were reports of skippers needing 1/4" flax. It's also easy to measure if you're in doubt.
Just to correct a mistake I made, when I was referring to !/4" packing what I meant was 1/8" packing, there's no way I could get 1/4" into my stuffing box. Math never was my strong suit.
Kevin : I was rereading this thread and am wondering if you really got all of the old packing out?? I took a close hanger, bent the end 1/8" 90 degrees and used that to probe and get all of the old packing out.
Maybe by this time you've solved your problem, but I'm sure that in Catalina's C34 1987 production they used the gland that needs 3 rings of 3/16" packing. Again I recommend Gore dripless!!
A few thoughts
Kevin : I forgot to add that I also took a #2 pensile shaved 2 sides, flattened the end 90degrees and made a packing tamper. After each ring I made sure that that ring was tamped in place!!
A thought