Catalina 34

General Activities => Main Message Board => Topic started by: SV Sand Pebble on March 02, 2022, 06:12:58 AM

Title: Alternator upgrade from Catalina direct.
Post by: SV Sand Pebble on March 02, 2022, 06:12:58 AM
  Most often I'm just a reader here and not much of a poster. Yet I want to thank everyone here for all your contributions that has helped me to repair and upgrade my Catalina 34 during the last 2 1/2 years. I just installed 4 Trojan 105's and a new starting battery. I have installed Victron smart chargers, a DC to DC charger for battery isolation and charging and a Bluetooth shunt. My question is this: I seen that do to health the mainsail sight is no longer offering the parts to upgrade our alternators. Can anyone guide me to upgrading my alternator? I seen that Catalina direct offers a 105 amp alternator but does not offer a catalog number or a regulator kit. Does anyone have a good option and catalog numbers for both alternator and regulator, it would be deeply appreciated.
Title: Re: Alternator upgrade from Catalina direct.
Post by: waughoo on March 02, 2022, 06:44:43 AM
My suggestion if you plan to upgrade the alternator would be to head towards something like a balmar kit.  That is likely the lowest cost highest return solution.  If you wanted to get fancy you could look into Mark Grasser and a wake speed remote alternator.  Here are some links...

https://markgrasser.com/

http://www.wakespeed.com/

Title: Re: Alternator upgrade from Catalina direct.
Post by: KWKloeber on March 02, 2022, 07:52:33 AM
What exactly is your desired end result?
Budget?  Tight or whatever’s necessary?
Which engine does she have. You can help us to help you by putting complete boat info in your profile or signature. (Hint: folks who put appropriate info in only the first post - not everyone reads threads from the beginning.)
The CD alternator is a drop in replacement (CD says, I have no knowledge about it) with internal regulator.
Do you need 105a (whats your goal/needs??) or just want to punch up a bit (say like 72a?)
Are you specifically looking for a top of the line (off the shelf since Rod isn’t building them YET, we hope) or happy with a ‘non marine’ alternator?
Title: Re: Alternator upgrade from Catalina direct.
Post by: Catalina007 on March 02, 2022, 08:23:31 AM
What engine do you have? If the M25 - have you done the alternator bracket upgrade?   
Rod was immensely helpful to so many folks and the best quality option, but in the best of times he did have a fairly long lead time for the alterrnator upgrade.  I hope at least he can come back as a  pay for pay consultant like he also did before 

Much of his website references are still available   https://marinehowto.com/external-alternator-regulation-conversion/
Title: Re: Alternator upgrade from Catalina direct.
Post by: Stu Jackson on March 02, 2022, 08:33:51 AM
...
...

Can anyone guide me to upgrading my alternator? I seen that Catalina direct offers a 105 amp alternator but does not offer a catalog number or a regulator kit. Does anyone have a good option and catalog numbers for both alternator and regulator, it would be deeply appreciated.

Sand Pebbles,

Welcome.  Sounds like you have done your research and homework.

Most likely you have an M25 or maybe an M25XP based on your hull number.  As far as a replacement alternator is concerned, the engines are identical, although if you have the M25, please assure you have performed the alternator bracket upgrade.

As far as kloeber's questions are concerned, while potentially valid, it appears to me that having done your research and homework, you have already decided on a 105A externally regulated alternator.  Whatever reasons you have chosen to do so is your business, i.e., marina hopper or off-grid cruising.  So all you're asking for is a source for said equipment.

The CD 105A alternator is internally regulated, although it has an adjustable voltage setpoint.  Single voltage regulators are not the best for battery health in the long run.  My experience is that Balmar alternators are priced well beyond comparative alternates/options; I wouldn't spend my money on one.  Others do.

It has been awhile since I was in the market for an alternator, and I'm sure that this link may well be dated and others may chime in to help:  (Reply #1 has a link to ASE Supply)

Alternator Upgrade - a 2018 thread with input from Maine Sail
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,9773.0.html

This is the thread that most likely got you directed to Maine Sail in the first place.  Given he is not in production mode, an option for you is to try ASE and do an internal to external regulator swap, which is described in great detail in another link in the ES101 thread, also by Maine Sail:

Converting a Leece Neville Alternator to External Regulation  by Maine Sail
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4879.0.html

Alternator Sources by Maine Sail  (Reply #16)
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5686.15.html


I made a note in my boat inventory spreadsheet some time ago, don't know if it still works or not:
Another source from eherlihy:  http://www.spidermarine.com/ShowItem/105186%20New%20Motorola,%20Leece%20Neville%2012v%2090%20Amp%20Alternator.aspx

****************************************

If you've already read all those links and are simply asking for an alternator source, I apologize for not being able to be more up-to-date and helpful.

As far as regulators go, the new MC618 would ber my preference over the ARS series.  ES101 does a comparison of them.

Happy hunting, good luck.  Please let us know what you end up doing.
Title: Re: Alternator upgrade from Catalina direct.
Post by: SV Sand Pebble on March 02, 2022, 09:07:27 AM
My suggestion if you plan to upgrade the alternator would be to head towards something like a balmar kit.  That is likely the lowest cost highest return solution.  If you wanted to get fancy you could look into Mark Grasser and a wake speed remote alternator. 

  Thank you very much for pointing out the above option. I will have to check to see if they have a small case alternator to fit my 25XP. I was hoping someone had a proven option with parts on the market but if not the above option maybe a go to.
Title: Re: Alternator upgrade from Catalina direct.
Post by: SV Sand Pebble on March 02, 2022, 09:14:08 AM
What exactly is your desired end result?
Budget?  Tight or whatever’s necessary?
Which engine does she have. You can help us to help you by putting complete boat info in your profile or signature. (Hint: folks who put appropriate info in only the first post - not everyone reads threads from the beginning.)
The CD alternator is a drop in replacement (CD says, I have no knowledge about it) with internal regulator.
Do you need 105a (whats your goal/needs??) or just want to punch up a bit (say like 72a?)
Are you specifically looking for a top of the line (off the shelf since Rod isn’t building them YET, we hope) or happy with a ‘non marine’ alternator?
  My engine is a  25XP my boat is a 1987. I will work on upgrading my profile. I was wondering if the Catalina direct unit was able to connect to an external regulator.
Title: Re: Alternator upgrade from Catalina direct.
Post by: SV Sand Pebble on March 02, 2022, 09:16:33 AM
What engine do you have? If the M25 - have you done the alternator bracket upgrade?   
Rod was immensely helpful to so many folks and the best quality option, but in the best of times he did have a fairly long lead time for the alterrnator upgrade.  I hope at least he can come back as a  pay for pay consultant like he also did before 

Much of his website references are still available   https://marinehowto.com/external-alternator-regulation-conversion/

  Yes thank you, I read and saved that link. I have the 25XP.
Title: Re: Alternator upgrade from Catalina direct.
Post by: SV Sand Pebble on March 02, 2022, 09:31:24 AM
...
...

Can anyone guide me to upgrading my alternator? I seen that Catalina direct offers a 105 amp alternator but does not offer a catalog number or a regulator kit. Does anyone have a good option and catalog numbers for both alternator and regulator, it would be deeply appreciated.

Sand Pebbles,

Welcome.  Sounds like you have done your research and homework.

Most likely you have an M25 or maybe an M25XP based on your hull number.  As far as a replacement alternator is concerned, the engines are identical, although if you have the M25, please assure you have performed the alternator bracket upgrade.

As far as kloeber's questions are concerned, while potentially valid, it appears to me that having done your research and homework, you have already decided on a 105A externally regulated alternator.  Whatever reasons you have chosen to do so is your business, i.e., marina hopper or off-grid cruising.  So all you're asking for is a source for said equipment.

The CD 105A alternator is internally regulated, although it has an adjustable voltage setpoint.  Single voltage regulators are not the best for battery health in the long run.  My experience is that Balmar alternators are priced well beyond comparative alternates/options; I wouldn't spend my money on one.  Others do.

It has been awhile since I was in the market for an alternator, and I'm sure that this link may well be dated and others may chime in to help:  (Reply #1 has a link to ASE Supply)

Alternator Upgrade - a 2018 thread with input from Maine Sail
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,9773.0.html

This is the thread that most likely got you directed to Maine Sail in the first place.  Given he is not in production mode, an option for you is to try ASE and do an internal to external regulator swap, which is described in great detail in another link in the ES101 thread, also by Maine Sail:

Converting a Leece Neville Alternator to External Regulation  by Maine Sail
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4879.0.html

Alternator Sources by Maine Sail  (Reply #16)
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5686.15.html


I made a note in my boat inventory spreadsheet some time ago, don't know if it still works or not:
Another source from eherlihy:  http://www.spidermarine.com/ShowItem/105186%20New%20Motorola,%20Leece%20Neville%2012v%2090%20Amp%20Alternator.aspx

****************************************

If you've already read all those links and are simply asking for an alternator source, I apologize for not being able to be more up-to-date and helpful.

As far as regulators go, the new MC618 would ber my preference over the ARS series.  ES101 does a comparison of them.

Happy hunting, good luck.  Please let us know what you end up doing.

  Stu
  Thank you for pointing out the Balmar MC618 regulator. Now I just need to find out if it's practical and possible to add the MC618 regulator to the Catalina direct alternator. Maybe a call to Catalina direct will answer this question but I have my doubts. My engine is the 25XP and my budget is below $500.00 I just seen the Balmar MC618 is about $328.00 new budget is $650.00 :( My plan is to mostly do weekends and maybe about 6 two week trips a year.
Title: Re: Alternator upgrade from Catalina direct.
Post by: Noah on March 02, 2022, 10:22:17 AM
Have you read this?
https://marinehowto.com/external-alternator-regulation-conversion/

That is the route I went 5 years ago with a 90 amp. Alternator and Balmer 614 regulator. All bought online from Spyder Marine in Fl. Works fine to this day with my T105s.
Any bigger of an alternator would have probably involve throttling it back anyway for my XP engine and pulley set-up. 95A was a good easy inexpensive sweet spot for me. Might ask Jon W. Or Ron, I believe they have a 105 Amp?
Title: Re: Alternator upgrade from Catalina direct.
Post by: Stu Jackson on March 02, 2022, 12:12:41 PM
.......
..........
Any bigger of an alternator would have probably involve throttling it back anyway for my XP engine and pulley set-up. 95A was a good easy inexpensive sweet spot for me. Might ask Jon W. Or Ron, I believe they have a 105 Amp?

Good to hear about your Spider, thx.

Yes, any alternator within reason that exceeds the acceptance of a nominal 400 ah bank should require a "dial-back" to avoid overheating the alternator which is, in the small case versions applicable to our engines, simply not made for continuous running at load.  That acceptance amount in amps has been recorded over the years to be between 50A and 75A, depending on the chemistry of the batteries being used and their SOC.

Two things:

1.  Buying a larger alternator and dialing it back is better than buying a smaller one and dialing it back.  Why? 'Cuz the bigger one will run cooler (with the identical load which is determined by the batteries).

2.  As noted in some of the links here, I use Small Engine Mode IN LIEU OF "dialing it back."  Why?  'Cuz it is easier: a simple toggle switch.  Yes, it requires physical management, but it is explained in detail in the SEM links in ES101, so I won't repeat them.

Your boat, your choice.  :D
Title: Re: Alternator upgrade from Catalina direct.
Post by: SV Sand Pebble on March 02, 2022, 01:48:47 PM
Have you read this?
https://marinehowto.com/external-alternator-regulation-conversion/

That is the route I went 5 years ago with a 90 amp. Alternator and Balmer 614 regulator. All bought online from Spyder Marine in Fl. Works fine to this day with my T105s.
Any bigger of an alternator would have probably involve throttling it back anyway for my XP engine and pulley set-up. 95A was a good easy inexpensive sweet spot for me. Might ask Jon W. Or Ron, I believe they have a 105 Amp?
  Thanks for the pointer yet Spider marine is now also closed. Here’s hoping Ron or someone can respond about the 105 amp or another known proven option. I do appreciate the responses and the attempts to help me.
Title: Re: Alternator upgrade from Catalina direct.
Post by: KWKloeber on March 02, 2022, 03:04:13 PM
Quote from: SV Sand Pebble

Can anyone guide me to upgrading my alternator? I seen that Catalina direct offers a 105 amp alternator but does not offer a catalog number or a regulator kit. Does anyone have a good option and catalog numbers for both alternator and regulator, it would be deeply appreciated.


Quote

you have already decided on a 105A externally regulated alternator.  Whatever reasons you have chosen to do so is your business, i.e., marina hopper or off-grid cruising.  So all you're asking for is a source for said equipment.
 

S/V SP:

"I know that you think you know what I said. But I'm not sure whether you understood that what you heard is what I meant."

Ok so I don't have other's crystal ball that tells me exactly what someone is thinking when the goal isn't absolutely crystal clear.

So therefore just "a source for said equipment" doesn't make sense (to me) because (1) you already have a source for the 105a L-N alternator and (2) we know from Rod that a conversion kit is unavailable, and (3) a pre-converted alternator (Balmer) is way beyond your budget.  I thought some knowledge might help, not just catalog numbers/sources.

So I'll try to provide some alternate detail here that might help you based on the additional info that you provided, rather than chasing links across the planet:

The CD L-N 105a alternator appears to be the 8MR2401U.  I can't confirm that 100% so no guarantee but I'm pretty sure that's the L-N model.  You can search for a better price like at NAPA but CD's is fair and includes your 1"/2" foot conversion.  Spider is long dead and ASE is typically high so I doubt those links will help much.  Beware of "replaces 8MR2401U" knock-off products in search results.

YES, the L-N alt from CD CAN BE converted to external regulation. 
HOWEVER the issue is NOT the alternator itself -- it's that the kit (L-N 114-307) does NOT exist anymore (well, except from Rod, if he has any left.)

My question to you re: the 105a size was, knowing that it would be very expensive (for my wallet) to get an externally regulated alternator ready-to-go (otherwise you'd just buy a Balmer.)  I thought possibly (without the benefit of said crystal ball) that a lower amp output with an external sense terminal might possibly satisfy your needs (of course not 3-stage externally regulated but 2-stage w/external sense is one step above the internal-sensed CD alternator.)

However, if you want to use that 105a L-N alt (again CD's is a fair price) then you might try the conversion w/o the L-N kit.
Caveat: I don't know your skill level or if possibly you have someone who could help do the conversation.  BUT (Rod and I have discussed this) the L-N kit is not magic; "all that it does" is pass through two field wires to outside of the new case and has terminals for those wires on the back. 

HOWEVER one of those terminals is absolutely unnecessary -- it gets jumpered to the B- (ground, NEG, Alt -, etc.) terminal on the alternator.  So, having that additional new terminal post on the back of the kit cover is simply redundant.  No magic there.  Additionally, the other field wire terminates on the second external post BUT that's also unnecessary -- any connector could be used on the field wire to connect it to the external regulator.  Granted, the arrangement wouldn't look as clean as the nice L-N conversation kit, but when you're "between a rock and a hard place...."  you do what you need to do. 

The reasoning why Rod can't simply do the conversion w/o L-N's kit is that he's concerned about spark protection where wires pass thru the case.  Well, wires already pass thru the existing regulator case so (it seems to me that with a little ingenuity) one could do the same pass-through w/ alternate wires.  Besides we are not using this alternator on a gasser, so we don't share Rod's concern about a stink boater installing it.

So in essence you need to:
Bring the two green wires in Rod's photo below to outside the case.
Terminate one wire onto the Alt NEG post.
Use a terminal of your choice on the other wire (direct to the regulator wire or to a terminal block.)

(http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/image/110668643.jpg)

UNDERSTAND -- I'm not attempting to provide detailed how-to instructions but with wiring experience and proper tools one can turn the L-N internal reg alternator into external regulation w/o the out-of-existence L-N kit.  If one isn't comfortable w/ the work I'd chat w/ a local auto alt repair shop to see if they would do the very simple wiring to bypass the regulator.

-ken
Title: Re: Alternator upgrade from Catalina direct.
Post by: Kyle Ewing on March 02, 2022, 04:14:09 PM
You can also try asking a local alternator shop for an externally regulated marine alternator then use a Balmar Ars-5 (about $275 with harnass) (https://balmar.net/product/regulator-ars-5/ (https://balmar.net/product/regulator-ars-5/)) with an alternator temperature sensor (about $40).  Take your old to match the case, pulley and mount.  That'll get you something close to your budget. 

Tell them you want a marine alternator rated for continuous output.  Read Maine Sail's article (https://marinehowto.com/automotive-alternators-vs-deep-cycle-batteries/ (https://marinehowto.com/automotive-alternators-vs-deep-cycle-batteries/)) to understand what questions to ask.

Years ago I went with a Blue Circle alternator (search Blue Circle here) and have been happy.  Last season I experienced low output so I took it to a local shop.  He rebuilt it for way less than price of a new.

The temperature sensor is important.
Title: Re: Alternator upgrade from Catalina direct.
Post by: SV Sand Pebble on March 02, 2022, 06:00:55 PM
Quote from: SV Sand Pebble

Can anyone guide me to upgrading my alternator? I seen that Catalina direct offers a 105 amp alternator but does not offer a catalog number or a regulator kit. Does anyone have a good option and catalog numbers for both alternator and regulator, it would be deeply appreciated.


Quote

you have already decided on a 105A externally regulated alternator.  Whatever reasons you have chosen to do so is your business, i.e., marina hopper or off-grid cruising.  So all you're asking for is a source for said equipment.
 

S/V SP:

"I know that you think you know what I said. But I'm not sure whether you understood that what you heard is what I meant."

Ok so I don't have other's crystal ball that tells me exactly what someone is thinking when the goal isn't absolutely crystal clear.

So therefore just "a source for said equipment" doesn't make sense (to me) because (1) you already have a source for the 105a L-N alternator and (2) we know from Rod that a conversion kit is unavailable, and (3) a pre-converted alternator (Balmer) is way beyond your budget.  I thought some knowledge might help, not just catalog numbers/sources.

So I'll try to provide some alternate detail here that might help you based on the additional info that you provided, rather than chasing links across the planet:

The CD L-N 105a alternator appears to be the 8MR2401U.  I can't confirm that 100% so no guarantee but I'm pretty sure that's the L-N model.  You can search for a better price like at NAPA but CD's is fair and includes your 1"/2" foot conversion.  Spider is long dead and ASE is typically high so I doubt those links will help much.  Beware of "replaces 8MR2401U" knock-off products in search results.

YES, the L-N alt from CD CAN BE converted to external regulation. 
HOWEVER the issue is NOT the alternator itself -- it's that the kit (L-N 114-307) does NOT exist anymore (well, except from Rod, if he has any left.)

My question to you re: the 105a size was, knowing that it would be very expensive (for my wallet) to get an externally regulated alternator ready-to-go (otherwise you'd just buy a Balmer.)  I thought possibly (without the benefit of said crystal ball) that a lower amp output with an external sense terminal might possibly satisfy your needs (of course not 3-stage externally regulated but 2-stage w/external sense is one step above the internal-sensed CD alternator.)

However, if you want to use that 105a L-N alt (again CD's is a fair price) then you might try the conversion w/o the L-N kit.
Caveat: I don't know your skill level or if possibly you have someone who could help do the conversation.  BUT (Rod and I have discussed this) the L-N kit is not magic; "all that it does" is pass through two field wires to outside of the new case and has terminals for those wires on the back. 

HOWEVER one of those terminals is absolutely unnecessary -- it gets jumpered to the B- (ground, NEG, Alt -, etc.) terminal on the alternator.  So, having that additional new terminal post on the back of the kit cover is simply redundant.  No magic there.  Additionally, the other field wire terminates on the second external post BUT that's also unnecessary -- any connector could be used on the field wire to connect it to the external regulator.  Granted, the arrangement wouldn't look as clean as the nice L-N conversation kit, but when you're "between a rock and a hard place...."  you do what you need to do. 

The reasoning why Rod can't simply do the conversion w/o L-N's kit is that he's concerned about spark protection where wires pass thru the case.  Well, wires already pass thru the existing regulator case so (it seems to me that with a little ingenuity) one could do the same pass-through w/ alternate wires.  Besides we are not using this alternator on a gasser, so we don't share Rod's concern about a stink boater installing it.

So in essence you need to:
Bring the two green wires in Rod's photo below to outside the case.
Terminate one wire onto the Alt NEG post.
Use a terminal of your choice on the other wire (direct to the regulator wire or to a terminal block.)

(http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/image/110668643.jpg)

UNDERSTAND -- I'm not attempting to provide detailed how-to instructions but with wiring experience and proper tools one can turn the L-N internal reg alternator into external regulation w/o the out-of-existence L-N kit.  If one isn't comfortable w/ the work I'd chat w/ a local auto alt repair shop to see if they would do the very simple wiring to bypass the regulator.

-ken

  Your help has been awesome, I understand there are no guaranties yet between you and Stu I'm going to
Pull the trigger on the Catalina direct 105 and a  Balmar MC-618 regulator and grind through it to success. I am a industrial machine control contractor with up to now very light DC experience. I have spent $2500 already between batteries, wire and controls all tinned, $10,000 on radar, autopilot and sails, what's another $650.00 Lol. I guess I just had to bounce all this off you good people to nudge  Myself forward. I cannot tell you guys how valuable all your contributions are here. I will let you know how it all goes. I'm also in the middle of a windless complete I stall, I'm a gluten for punishment. Thanks again everyone.
Title: Re: Alternator upgrade from Catalina direct.
Post by: SV Sand Pebble on March 02, 2022, 06:09:53 PM
You can also try asking a local alternator shop for an externally regulated marine alternator then use a Balmar Ars-5 (about $275 with harnass) (https://balmar.net/product/regulator-ars-5/ (https://balmar.net/product/regulator-ars-5/)) with an alternator temperature sensor (about $40).  Take your old to match the case, pulley and mount.  That'll get you something close to your budget. 

Tell them you want a marine alternator rated for continuous output.  Read Maine Sail's article (https://marinehowto.com/automotive-alternators-vs-deep-cycle-batteries/ (https://marinehowto.com/automotive-alternators-vs-deep-cycle-batteries/)) to understand what questions to ask.

Years ago I went with a Blue Circle alternator (search Blue Circle here) and have been happy.  Last season I experienced low output so I took it to a local shop.  He rebuilt it for way less than price of a new.

The temperature sensor is important.
  You offer another good option. My whole upgrade came to play because when I bought my boat the batteries were old and not matched. When I cha get them a d added a shunt I notice the alternator output was 17 volts, I guess a bad regulator. I disconnected it and for now I have only been day sailing and charging from shore power.
Title: Re: Alternator upgrade from Catalina direct.
Post by: KWKloeber on March 02, 2022, 09:52:47 PM
@S/V S

Here is one L-N bulletin on the mod, although Rod's write-up is much clearer/prettier.

Different model, but basically here's what it'll look like under the gasket.  I'm wondering if using a Dremel it could be de-potted so as to provide more working space to bring the two field wires to the outside?   
Title: Re: Alternator upgrade from Catalina direct.
Post by: SV Sand Pebble on March 03, 2022, 06:58:20 PM
@S/V S

Here is one L-N bulletin on the mod, although Rod's write-up is much clearer/prettier.

Different model, but basically here's what it'll look like under the gasket.  I'm wondering if using a Dremel it could be de-potted so as to provide more working space to bring the two field wires to the outside?

  Thanks so much for the help and pictures. I ordered the 105 amp unit from Catalina direct today. It's back ordered 4 or 5 weeks. I thought if I can't afford the regulator yet I could run the charging battery through my dc to dc Victron Charger and  at least 3 stage charge my house bank and limit my draw from the house bank to 30 amps maybe keeping the alternator cool enough. Any words of wisdom.
Title: Re: Alternator upgrade from Catalina direct.
Post by: Stu Jackson on March 04, 2022, 10:32:58 AM


  Thanks so much for the help and pictures. I ordered the 105 amp unit from Catalina direct today. It's back ordered 4 or 5 weeks. I thought if I can't afford the regulator yet I could run the charging battery through my dc to dc Victron Charger and  at least 3 stage charge my house bank and limit my draw from the house bank to 30 amps maybe keeping the alternator cool enough. Any words of wisdom.

Why bother?  Unless your house bank is horribly depleted, the internal regulator on your old 51A Motorola alternator will get you charging safely. 

How do I know?  Before I installed my 100A alternator and Balmar MC-612, I would cruise with my nominal 400 ah house bank (12V wet cells).  Of course when leaving the dock all charged up, no issue.  But after a night on the hook with the fridge on, the alternator would only be putting out 25A or so.  I knew this because I had an old AutoMac, which I used to improve the output, but could only get it up to 30 or 35A anyway.

Don't complicate things until you get all the rest of your gear installed.
Title: Re: Alternator upgrade from Catalina direct.
Post by: Catalina007 on March 04, 2022, 11:53:59 AM


  Thanks so much for the help and pictures. I ordered the 105 amp unit from Catalina direct today. It's back ordered 4 or 5 weeks. I thought if I can't afford the regulator yet I could run the charging battery through my dc to dc Victron Charger and  at least 3 stage charge my house bank and limit my draw from the house bank to 30 amps maybe keeping the alternator cool enough. Any words of wisdom.

Why bother?  Unless your house bank is horribly depleted, the internal regulator on your old 51A Motorola alternator will get you charging safely. 

How do I know?  Before I installed my 100A alternator and Balmar MC-612, I would cruise with my nominal 400 ah house bank (12V wet cells).  Of course when leaving the dock all charged up, no issue.  But after a night on the hook with the fridge on, the alternator would only be putting out 25A or so.  I knew this because I had an old AutoMac, which I used to improve the output, but could only get it up to 30 or 35A anyway.

Don't complicate things until you get all the rest of your gear installed.

Unless its Catalina propriety item, I stay away from CD. Thats probably a 100 pct markup on a standard alternator you can get anywhere with no delay.   
Title: Re: Alternator upgrade from Catalina direct.
Post by: Noah on March 04, 2022, 02:06:58 PM
007–I think your “stay away from Catalina Direct” is pretty harsh. Yes, many items are higher priced, but not all and some provide a very convenient solution for boats. Also, their customer service is pretty good.
Title: Re: Alternator upgrade from Catalina direct.
Post by: KWKloeber on March 04, 2022, 05:16:53 PM

Yes, many items are higher priced, but not all


In this case CD @ $199 appears to be a fair price. 
One of the most-reasonable sources I have used in the past, the L-N 8MR2401U is $262 shipping included; Scamazon $366; ASE $245 + shipping.
I might have mentioned once or twice that I'm not a CD fan about many things, but when it's warranted they should get their due.
Customer service -- from my experience it's 50-50.  I've tried for, maybe 4 years? to get a part number to buy an item they show but don't have a p/n on it.  It's come to be just a game I keep playing just to pass the time on a rainy day.  Like many other places, CD appears to be "front line" employee challenged.


S/V SP:

If time is of the essence, consider a Wilson reman ($170 shipping included.)  Wilson is the largest reman-er in N. America and puts out EXCELLENT products.   I'd rather buy a full reman than a new alt -- you KNOW it is 100% tested and didn't slip by w/ the 99% off the line that don't get tested.

Title: Re: Alternator upgrade from Catalina direct.
Post by: mainesail on March 05, 2022, 09:05:14 AM
@S/V S

Here is one L-N bulletin on the mod, although Rod's write-up is much clearer/prettier.

Different model, but basically here's what it'll look like under the gasket.  I'm wondering if using a Dremel it could be de-potted so as to provide more working space to bring the two field wires to the outside?

  Thanks so much for the help and pictures. I ordered the 105 amp unit from Catalina direct today. It's back ordered 4 or 5 weeks. I thought if I can't afford the regulator yet I could run the charging battery through my dc to dc Victron Charger and  at least 3 stage charge my house bank and limit my draw from the house bank to 30 amps maybe keeping the alternator cool enough. Any words of wisdom.
Do Yourself a favor and cancel that order. C/D is selling elcheapo Chinese  clones and they perform horribly. Once you have cancelled the order buy a genuine Leece-Neville from a legit Leece-Neville dealer such as ASE Supply...
Title: Re: Alternator upgrade from Catalina direct.
Post by: KWKloeber on March 05, 2022, 09:36:26 AM

Do Yourself a favor and cancel that order. C/D is selling elcheapo Chinese  clones and they perform horribly. Once you have cancelled the order buy a genuine Leece-Neville from a legit Leece-Neville dealer such as ASE Supply...


THOSE SONS OF BIT˘H€$!!  :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
Displaying a Leece instruction sheet with a knock-off.

Damn, just when you want to try to find some good in a felon, they turn around and try to screw owners again. 

Thank you Rod for passing along that knowledge!!!
Continue your steady uphill climb!!
Title: Re: Alternator upgrade from Catalina direct.
Post by: SV Sand Pebble on March 06, 2022, 03:23:35 AM
 
  Thank you all.
  Stu,I was under the impression  that when I enlarged my house bank to 450 amp hours the larger bank if depleted could possibly overheat my old alternator. Even though I'm a industrial electrician I have had up I till lately very little experience with 12 volt systems and batteries. It feels good to begin to put the mystery of boat wiring to rest yet I still have A bit to go. Recently I disconnected my alternator  charge wire and had anew day sails for about 5 hours each. I was surprised even using my wheel autopilot during a ten knot day how little power I actually took from the house bank. Yet if I can hobble along on my old alternator till I have the chance to get both my alternator and external regulator solved great.
  Mainsail, thanks for the heads up on the CD alternator I'm going to cancel Monday morning. A friend with the Catalina 34 next to mine same year 1987 mentioned he seen the 90 amp Leece Neville that may fit our boats on Amazon and he would Send me a link, have not seen the link. I want to be sure it is one that will work. Note: A few here have mentioned that a 90 amp maybe a better option to have mercy on our v-belt.
  So again thank you all.

  On a side note, I took my new stainless steel windless mounting shelf to my boat this weekend, it fit perfect, the back slope for the anchor locker was dead on. I'm sure it will take me to the end of April to finish all my projects, just in time for the season. Wait, what do I mean season, I live in Southern California, its always the season.

  OK, first goal, get the right Lecce Neville Alternator ordered and on its way. I live in the mountains of Southern California and my boats 75 miles away, so although I'm almost there every weekend my projects move forward at a snails pace.

Title: Re: Alternator upgrade from Catalina direct.
Post by: Jon W on March 06, 2022, 07:48:00 AM
Regarding having mercy on the v-belt - The Balmar external regulator allows you to monitor alternator and house bank temperature, in addition to having several programmable settings to safely and efficiently get the most out of your charging system. On the MC-614 one of the settings is called belt manager. I've set mine to b-4 and do not have a problem with my v-belts getting eaten up. You can also add the small engine mode feature Stu suggested which is another way to manage v-belt wear. Proper belt tension is also very important.

FWIW - I added the external regulator kit on a L-N 105A that the PO installed prior to 2015. The alternator output connects directly to my 450ah house bank. I also have a 85ah reserve battery charged via a Xantrex Digital Echo Charger.
Title: Re: Alternator upgrade from Catalina direct.
Post by: SV Sand Pebble on March 06, 2022, 08:48:09 AM

  Thanks Jon
  All the little bits of advice here helps me to piece together the best plan possible. Stu mentioned the MC-618 that maybe the latest upgrade of the MC-614 from Balmar. I willfind that out when I go to order my regulator. If anyone has a catalog number or links to the Leece Neville 90 or 105 Alternator that would be great, if not I will bang away till I get through all this. I know when I get done with all this I will have an awesome boat.
Title: Re: Alternator upgrade from Catalina direct.
Post by: Jon W on March 06, 2022, 09:49:30 AM
I believe the MC-618 is the new version of the MC-614. One nice new feature is that it can connect to your phone with an app for programming or status display.

I attached an old spec sheet for the L-N 105a alternator I have for your reference. It says the L-N 105a alternator is item# 8MR2401UA, sales number 110-567. Noah may have data for the 90a. I'm guessing the L-N 90a sales number may be 110-602.

I don't think the L-N external regulator conversion kit is available anymore, but the PN was 114-307, Kit 1070 as reference if you want to ask around about putting together your own version of it. I bought my kit from ASE Supply.

Just did quick internet search of the PN and I came up with a webste called 2040-parts.com that says it has the conversion kit for $9.99. Don't know anything about the site or if it's still in business. They could still have the kit for sale, or it could be an old add and they don't. If they're in business and don't have it anymore, maybe they could put one together for you. Worth calling and asking.
Title: Re: Alternator upgrade from Catalina direct.
Post by: SV Sand Pebble on March 06, 2022, 11:30:58 AM

  Once again Jon, thank you your awesome.
  I do not know how a boat own owner with a modest income! Ado it yourself er who could successful without a site such as this and the good people willing to offer their experience. I love Catalina's for 90 percent of my sailing, I would not mind a Catalina 42 :) I sure wished they has a skeg protected rudder, I'm sure a hydrovane would make me feel better. Anyways I'm off to take the wife out today showing I can do more then sail or talk about sailing. Monday, cancel I'm order with CD, get an order of a new alternator coming and see if I can get that kit for hooking up my regulator. I know there has been a few windless pictures placed here on the site so I plan on sharing mine. It's quite the job yet im feeling really good about the future outcome. Again so much appreciation for all the help from everyone.
  George
Title: Re: Alternator upgrade from Catalina direct.
Post by: KWKloeber on March 06, 2022, 11:53:07 AM
S/V SP

I already gave you the model number of the 105a - re-read below.

ASE lists it for more than the the CD knock-off but doesn’t indicate if it’s in stock (presuming it’s truly L-N and n/a scam.)
Wilson lists 3 of the remans in stock (see pic) and NAPA carries Wilson remans but this one may be a special order.) Below is FilterPro’s price (+ refundable core charge.)

Look at the L-N model 8MR2349 (sell no. 110-639) for a 90a. It does have external sense terminal, which the 105a does not.

The 8MR2156U 105a has external sense (if you’re not going to add an ext reg right away.)

I’m just wondering (if anyone knows?) - if one removes the regulator’s B+ wire from the B+ post on the Alt, and instead runs that wire to the battery bank, does that essentially turn the alt into external sense??  (just w/o a screw post on the regulator case.)

You might call Prestolite - 585-492-1700 they’re about 15 min from where I used to live (back when there was a “Motorola” sign outside) - nice ppl there.  Tell em you need a drop in replacement for an 8MR2049K alt.

The website has a search for dealers
https://www.prestolite-eu.com/distributors/?utm_source=website-na-btn


 
Title: Re: Alternator upgrade from Catalina direct.
Post by: Stu Jackson on March 06, 2022, 12:54:28 PM

  Thanks Jon
  All the little bits of advice here helps me to piece together the best plan possible. Stu mentioned the MC-618 that maybe the latest upgrade of the MC-614 from Balmar. I willfind that out when I go to order my regulator. If anyone has a catalog number or links to the Leece Neville 90 or 105 Alternator that would be great, if not I will bang away till I get through all this. I know when I get done with all this I will have an awesome boat.

https://balmar.net/multi-stage-regulators/  has the features for their regulators which I figure you'd want to know before you order.  The 618 has additional features from the 614 that you may not need or want to pay for.  Up to you.

If you are choosing between a 90a or 105A alternator and the cost isn't too different, get the larger one because it will run cooler at any given load.

You mentioned disconnecting your alternator.  You should disable it by disconnecting the excite wire, not the alternator output.

When ordering material like this, the telephone could be your friend, rather than just internet viewing or emails.  There are two very helpful fellows named Bob at ASE.  Ask for Bob who knows alternators and the Bob that answers the phone will switch you over to the other Bob. :D
Title: Re: Alternator upgrade from Catalina direct.
Post by: Catalina007 on March 07, 2022, 08:24:00 AM
007–I think your “stay away from Catalina Direct” is pretty harsh. Yes, many items are higher priced, but not all and some provide a very convenient solution for boats. Also, their customer service is pretty good.

Their customer services is pretty horrible.  They start out answering the phone with a recording that says we're busy keep trying.  And for some bizarre reason will not respond to emails for their 'free' technical support   
Title: Re: Alternator upgrade from Catalina direct.
Post by: Noah on March 07, 2022, 08:31:16 AM
Been awhile since bought from them, but generally have had a positive experience. These trying have changed/impacted a lot of businesses. Hopefully it is not a permanent situation.
Title: Re: Alternator upgrade from Catalina direct.
Post by: waughoo on March 07, 2022, 08:43:49 AM
I have always had possitive experiences.  Part of my calculus when considering their prices is the research and data they have amassed about our boats.  That is worth something to me so I don't have to reinvent the wheel.  I don't always buy from them, bilut have plans to buy their replacement cockpit storage box trims in the coming months.
Title: Re: Alternator upgrade from Catalina direct.
Post by: SV Sand Pebble on March 08, 2022, 05:22:48 PM
[quote author=SV Sand Pebble

If you are choosing between a 90a or 105A alternator and the cost isn't too different, get the larger one because it will run cooler at any given load.

You mentioned disconnecting your alternator.  You should disable it by disconnecting the excite wire, not the alternator output.

When ordering material like this, the telephone could be your friend, rather than just internet viewing or emails.  There are two very helpful fellows named Bob at ASE.  Ask for Bob who knows alternators and the Bob that answers the phone will switch you over to the other Bob. :D 

  Response to Stu and all.
 Hello friends, Its been an up hill battle. Remember I ordered the clone from Catalina direct, the 105 amp alternator not knowing it was a clone? It was suppose to be on back order 5 weeks yet when I called to cancel it had already shipped. I ended up as Stu suggested talking to Bob at ASE and he said by the looks of things it's not a bad clone yet after he looked over everything he could not find that it was marine rated or UL listed. He said it was my boat yet for him and his boat he would rather buy the OEM marine rated part then the unknown. So I canceled my CD order, the girl there said they also have the Leece Neville available for like $750.00 I'm sure she'd not think that through. Bob asked me to check and measure the foot of my old alternator when I get to my boat tomorrow and then he and I could get together and order me the right thing I need, the right setup for my L-N 8MR2401UA. Tomorrow I will also talk to Bob about possible options for an external regulator connection of some sort. If not for now I will feed my new starter led acid windless battery with the alternator then feed my house bank with my already owned Victron 30 amp DC to DC charger offering my alternator protection and my house bank slow yet low amperage charging. I had the DC to DC charger for my house bank to charge my starter battery but for now it will keep me maybe from burning up my alternator and belts to I come up with a better option. Tomorrow I will have to add a separate charge wire directly to my starter battery, its located do to my new windless install under the bow side of the salon table, wire sized appropriately. I just learned from reading last night not to use the starter positive as the charge wire coming from the alternator. I will get through this Lol.
  As always thank you all for your support and anyone passing through Alamitos bay Long Beach California stop by dock 17 slip #48 for a beer if after five or a coffee anytime. A note: everything I have installed is so one day I can quickly drop in lithium house bank batteries if I so choose to. All just by changing programmable settings.

  I will at some point get better at posting here 😀

  George SV Sand Pebble georgelanroh@gmail.com



Title: Re: Alternator upgrade from Catalina direct.
Post by: KWKloeber on March 08, 2022, 06:50:00 PM
S/V SP


Tell 'em you need a drop in replacement for an 8MR2049K alt.



Your OEM (and mounting bracket) is a 2" foot, the 8MR2401UA has a 1" foot so you'll need a spacer from ASE.

As I suggested you might ask if there's a 105a model w/ external V sense (which will help you if you use this Alt until you get the Balmer hooked up.)  The Prestolite 105a 110-634 has external sense.  YBYC

Quote from: Stu Jackson

You mentioned disconnecting your alternator.  You should disable it by disconnecting the excite wire, not the alternator output.


OK for the OEM alt -- note that the 105a 8MR2401UA is internally (self) excited and so S/V SP you won't use the purple wire in the engine harness.

Quote from: SV Sand Pebble

but for now it will keep me maybe from burning up my alternator and belts to I come up with a better option.


You checked your energy usage and it's very low (during 5 hrs of sailing I believe you said?)  So why are you concerned about burning up the new alternator before the Balmer is installed?   

PS: running the charge wire to the bank is an OPTION, not the only option.
Title: Re: Alternator upgrade from Catalina direct.
Post by: SV Sand Pebble on March 08, 2022, 08:42:08 PM
S/V SP


Tell 'em you need a drop in replacement for an 8MR2049K alt.



Your OEM (and mounting bracket) is a 2" foot, the 8MR2401UA has a 1" foot so you'll need a spacer from ASE.

As I suggested you might ask if there's a 105a model w/ external V sense (which will help you if you use this Alt until you get the Balmer hooked up.)  The Prestolite 105a 110-634 has external sense.  YBYC

Quote from: Stu Jackson

You mentioned disconnecting your alternator.  You should disable it by disconnecting the excite wire, not the alternator output.


OK for the OEM alt -- note that the 105a 8MR2401UA is internally (self) excited and so S/V SP you won't use the purple wire in the engine harness.

Quote from: SV Sand Pebble

but for now it will keep me maybe from burning up my alternator and belts to I come up with a better option.


You checked your energy usage and it's very low (during 5 hrs of sailing I believe you said?)  So why are you concerned about burning up the new alternator before the Balmer is installed?   

PS: running the charge wire to the bank is an OPTION, not the only option.

  As I talk to Bob tomorrow I will have a print out of the things you mentioned here today. You have mentioned about an external voltage sense wire being a good thing and I read a little bit about that last night. Getting an accurate reading from the battery sounds logical and great but don't you have a voltage drop possible on the sense wire just like the starter wire which on my boat is size #1 now. I size the starter wire not to have voltage drop.are you saying that it maybe OK to use the starter feed wire as my alternator charging wire? I normally work with 480/240/120 volt and voltage drop does not come into play till often 200 feet or more. So how critical it is to maintain voltage when working with 12 volts is new to me yet I totally understand, one volt is everything, literally.
  Yes my boat took very little for a 5 hour day sail yet I don't know how long it's going to take to solve this problem. Summer is upon us and local islands await. Worst comes and I carry a 2000 watt gas generator and my 120 volt charging system is two 30 amp Victron smart chargers, one is a single battery charger tied only to my house bank, the second 30 amp charger is a 3 battery charger dividing up that 30 amps between the demand of both my house bank and my starter battery so I think I can charge pretty quick that way if needed.
Title: Re: Alternator upgrade from Catalina direct.
Post by: KWKloeber on March 08, 2022, 10:44:03 PM

Getting an accurate reading from the battery sounds logical and great but don't you have a voltage drop possible on the sense wire


The sense wire carries only milliamps current so there's no measurable V loss (just like you can use a tiny gauge wire to a V meter to measure 480 VAC on a 20 amp motor (there's "no" current flowing in the sense wires.)


Quote

are you saying that it maybe OK to use the starter feed wire as my alternator charging wire?

So how critical it is to maintain voltage when working with 12 volts is new to me yet I totally understand, one volt is everything, literally.


Yep, you're right it's very important to minimize DC V loss (depending of course on the purpose of the circuit.) 
My point was that a blanket statement that one cannot use the starter feed to charge the battery is not so for every owner/every boat.  There's thousands of Catalinas out there with that setup that work just fine.  It may be the best for you use and charging set up, but....  there's many ways to skin a Catalina.

Quote

Yes my boat took very little for a 5 hour day sail yet I don't know how long it's going to take to solve this problem.

Summer is upon us and local islands await. Worst comes and I carry a 2000 watt gas generator and my 120 volt charging system is two 30 amp Victron smart chargers, one is a single battery charger tied only to my house bank, the second 30 amp charger is a 3 battery charger dividing up that 30 amps between the demand of both my house bank and my starter battery so I think I can charge pretty quick that way if needed.


So if you are going to drastically increase your energy usage then, yes, you will push more out of the alt trying to replenish that greater usage (amp hours) and your alt *could* run hotter, depending on the difference.  But if you are using about the same amt of energy then you are not going to overheat the new alt.  You would have to drastically increase usage moving from 51a to a 105a to eat up belts.  How hard the alt works doesn't depend on the size/rating of the alt or size of the bank -- how hard it works depends on the energy it needs to replace.   A 105a will run cooler if doing the same work as the OEM 51a alt. 

Water flow Battery current 101-
Look at it this way -- you have a full 5-gal bucket (your old battery) and a full bathtub (your new bank) and take a gallon of water from each.  It doesn't matter the size of the container -- it still takes only one gallon, no more no less, to replace one gallon. 

Battery resistance determines the charge amperage -- not the size of the alternator.  So if you use a funnel (restricts the flow) to replace one gallon of water it doesn't matter whether you run a 3/8" hose or a 3/4" hose to the funnel.   The funnel (i.e., battery resistance) still controls the water flow (i.e., the charging current,) not whether it's a 3/4" hose (105 amp alt) or the 3/8" hose (51 amp alt) filling the funnel.
However, if you use a larger funnel (have a more depleted battery bank = lower resistance) the water flow (charge current) will increase proportionally (unless/until you reach the limit of the 3/8" hose (51 amp) or the 3/4" hose (105 amp.)

(In college the hydraulics profs always tried to tell us water is JUST like electricity -- and the EE profs said electricity is JUST like water.  We never bought into either of those ideas.)
Title: Re: Alternator upgrade from Catalina direct.
Post by: SV Sand Pebble on March 09, 2022, 05:17:08 AM

Getting an accurate reading from the battery sounds logical and great but don't you have a voltage drop possible on the sense wire


The sense wire carries only milliamps current so there's no measurable V loss (just like you can use a tiny gauge wire to a V meter to measure 480 VAC on a 20 amp motor (there's "no" current flowing in the sense wires.)


Quote

are you saying that it maybe OK to use the starter feed wire as my alternator charging wire?

So how critical it is to maintain voltage when working with 12 volts is new to me yet I totally understand, one volt is everything, literally.


Yep, you're right it's very important to minimize DC V loss (depending of course on the purpose of the circuit.) 
My point was that a blanket statement that one cannot use the starter feed to charge the battery is not so for every owner/every boat.  There's thousands of Catalinas out there with that setup that work just fine.  It may be the best for you use and charging set up, but....  there's many ways to skin a Catalina.

Quote

Yes my boat took very little for a 5 hour day sail yet I don't know how long it's going to take to solve this problem.

Summer is upon us and local islands await. Worst comes and I carry a 2000 watt gas generator and my 120 volt charging system is two 30 amp Victron smart chargers, one is a single battery charger tied only to my house bank, the second 30 amp charger is a 3 battery charger dividing up that 30 amps between the demand of both my house bank and my starter battery so I think I can charge pretty quick that way if needed.


So if you are going to drastically increase your energy usage then, yes, you will push more out of the alt trying to replenish that greater usage (amp hours) and your alt *could* run hotter, depending on the difference.  But if you are using about the same amt of energy then you are not going to overheat the new alt.  You would have to drastically increase usage moving from 51a to a 105a to eat up belts.  How hard the alt works doesn't depend on the size/rating of the alt or size of the bank -- how hard it works depends on the energy it needs to replace.   A 105a will run cooler if doing the same work as the OEM 51a alt. 

Water flow Battery current 101-
Look at it this way -- you have a full 5-gal bucket (your old battery) and a full bathtub (your new bank) and take a gallon of water from each.  It doesn't matter the size of the container -- it still takes only one gallon, no more no less, to replace one gallon. 

Battery resistance determines the charge amperage -- not the size of the alternator.  So if you use a funnel (restricts the flow) to replace one gallon of water it doesn't matter whether you run a 3/8" hose or a 3/4" hose to the funnel.   The funnel (i.e., battery resistance) still controls the water flow (i.e., the charging current,) not whether it's a 3/4" hose (105 amp alt) or the 3/8" hose (51 amp alt) filling the funnel.
However, if you use a larger funnel (have a more depleted battery bank = lower resistance) the water flow (charge current) will increase proportionally (unless/until you reach the limit of the 3/8" hose (51 amp) or the 3/4" hose (105 amp.)

(In college the hydraulics profs always tried to tell us water is JUST like electricity -- and the EE profs said electricity is JUST like water.  We never bought into either of those ideas.)

  Thank you for putting all the above in such a clear and easy way to understand, one day I will pass it along, pay it forward. My old father rest in peace use to explain thing that way. You know what? Rest in peace? I have always hated that expression, I know a loved one in pain we want them to rest from that, yet my father, my best friend, I want him to be raising a good time the old scotchman. He use to explain things by using the example of water also whether that be electricity, air lines or even vacuum systems. As I think you know as most do here, boat work and upgrades are fought with frustration, pain, cuts and bruises. Yet by some magic miracle like a few extra feet of waterline a boat completely gets so much bigger, we end up celebrating our pain and suffering by sharing our success with our fellow sailors. And with that forgetting why we have band aids all over our arms. In the end I would trade it for nothing. Thanks again , I will will post upon completion a note here on where I'm at on my project and what if anything that is holding me back from putting the end of my project to rest and starting the next one. I'm hoping for a solar arch with solar and davits by the end of 2023, I'm 60 and getting tired of my dinghy on deck and lifting my now 3.5 hp outboard up and down to my dinghy. Did I mention an addition to a swim platform? Yes I'm all in, if I knew all this two years ago and had more money  I would of  bought an already upgraded series 5 Catalina. Yet it was not in the cards, what was in the cards was money thank God to slowly funnel in each year allowing me a hands on boat education, the physical activities to keep me both physically and mentally fit and maybe allowing me to live to 80 plus. How do you put a price on that? So I know why we men love our boats beyond the adventure, they keep us healthy and alive.



Title: Re: Alternator upgrade from Catalina direct.
Post by: Jon W on March 09, 2022, 09:32:21 AM
One of the rules of boat work is - If you can see it, then you can only touch it with one hand. If you can touch it with two hands, then you can't see it.
Title: Re: Alternator upgrade from Catalina direct.
Post by: Admiral_Swellson on March 09, 2022, 09:53:54 AM
One of the rules of boat work is - If you can see it, then you can only touch it with one hand. If you can touch it with two hands, then you can't see it.

Awesome, the quantum theory of boat work!
Title: Re: Alternator upgrade from Catalina direct.
Post by: KWKloeber on March 09, 2022, 12:41:41 PM
S/V SP

I just wanted to pass in that the guy who carries the Wilson Leece Neville remanufactured alternators told me that there’s 3 of the 105a on the shelf if that’s an option for your wallet (considerable saving over a brand new Leece.)
Title: Re: Alternator upgrade from Catalina direct.
Post by: SV Sand Pebble on March 09, 2022, 07:12:55 PM
S/V SP

I just wanted to pass in that the guy who carries the Wilson Leece Neville remanufactured alternators told me that there’s 3 of the 105a on the shelf if that’s an option for your wallet (considerable saving over a brand new Leece.)

  I actually ordered the 105 amp unit without the sense wire and ordered the spacer today. Bob at ASE did not want to sell me the unit with the sense wire because he said it was not rated for the marine diesel environment. So I needed closure so I ordered the other unit L-N 8MR2401UA hoping one day I can do more with it. I feel like 150 years old after working on my windless install for half a day. Very little progress working on it myself, I think my 1/4” stainless shelf is a little heavy. I plan on only 100 feet of 5/16 chain and 200 feet of 5/8 3 braid line. I understand 5/16 chain is about 1 pound a foot so 100 feet and my windless should be ok. Hold onto your hat. My Alternator plus spacer and shipping out the door was about an even $300.00.
  I never look back, it’s time to move forward finish these two projects and enjoy the summer.
  Thanks all.
Title: Re: Alternator upgrade from Catalina direct.
Post by: Jon W on March 10, 2022, 10:43:20 AM
This may be better as a separate post topic, but sounds like you're asking for feedback.

Regarding your windlass, the size of windlass for your need depends on the windlass manufacturer. When I added mine, I looked at Lewmar and Maxwell. To pick the right windlass, Lewmar said to multipy the total ground tackle by 4. Maxwell said to multiply the total ground tackle by 3.

Your ground tackle is 100 feet of 5/16" G4 HT chain ~ 1.1 lb/foot, plus 200 feet of 5/8" rope ~ .1 lb/ft., plus your anchor weight. Your total ground tackle is ~130 lbs. plus your anchor weight. What anchor do you have? Look up the specs for your windlass and that should answer your question about sizing.
Title: Re: Alternator upgrade from Catalina direct.
Post by: SV Sand Pebble on March 10, 2022, 07:48:39 PM
This may be better as a separate post topic, but sounds like you're asking for feedback.

Regarding your windlass, the size of windlass for your need depends on the windlass manufacturer. When I added mine, I looked at Lewmar and Maxwell. To pick the right windlass, Lewmar said to multipy the total ground tackle by 4. Maxwell said to multiply the total ground tackle by 3.

Your ground tackle is 100 feet of 5/16" G4 HT chain ~ 1.1 lb/foot, plus 200 feet of 5/8" rope ~ .1 lb/ft., plus your anchor weight. Your total ground tackle is ~130 lbs. plus your anchor weight. What anchor do you have? Look up the specs for your windlass and that should answer your question about sizing.

  Hi Jon
  It was just earliar I mentioned one of my projects was a windless install. Your right I should start a new thread. Quickly I was given a real nice windless from a guy who did not know he sheared the key till he bought a new one, he had the new one for a year so he said to me take the old one. It's a Maxwell Vertical both gypsy and drum.
Title: Re: Alternator upgrade from Catalina direct.
Post by: SV Sand Pebble on March 20, 2022, 07:54:20 AM

  Just a follow up on my 100 amp alternator upgrade. I installed with the good advice here the Leece Neville 8MR2401UA, I'm glad I spent the extra cash for the peace of mind. My attempt on my boat is to do everything as right as possible and as good as I possibly can. This takes everything down to a snails pace. It took me a complete day Saturday with the wire, terminals, breaker, heat shrink and associated hardware ordered in advance. Man that's a tight spot. The smallest things seem to bother me when it comes to my boat. I install a 120 amp breaker in my 100 amp alternator circuit, our diodes can't afford nuisance tripping. One is tempted not to install a breaker at all if it wasn't for the small possibility of a short and a fire at sea, no thank you. I have worked on electrical and around machinery all my life and I don't think I have come upon anything that has required so much discipline and patience as Boatwork, if done right or the attempt to do it right 😁
  I think it's the special nature of all the parts, material and their price along with a certain pride boaters have in being the best possible all around sailors they can be. What a great sport, hobby or lifestyle for one at any age. For most of us we are 50+ and we have to use it or lose it. I think as I said before, our boats are fixing us, all the bending and stooping, all the mental challenges keeps our minds sharp, I hope, One thing for sure as I crawl out of the aft cabin this morning and have my first cup of coffee, although I’m happy with myself with my completed alternator install, I feel beat to hell, strange it feels good and bad at the same time.
  This morning if I can get my belly down on the deck I will be installing my new windlass shelf, this time with 3M fast cure UV 4000 cocking, last week I just did a test fit. My goal is to have my windlass project with both forward and aft controls done by the end of May, all the earlier the better. I think boatwork is like sailing, don’t try to sail to a schedule, rather allow in the case of sailing weather and conditions to dictate when our boats leave or return to the dock. And in the case of boatwork, it’s conditions also, the condition of my wallet, the condition of my preparation and the condition of myself. Did I mention I have both knees replaced, total reconstruction of my right ankle with bolts going through two toe bone canals from toe to heel to support my arch, if I can upgrade my boat anyone can. Most of my sailing is solo. Why do I write this? Two and a half years ago after thinking for a long time I was to old and beat up to own a sailboat I watched a guy with one arm and one leg missing solo sailing around the world, that nudged me to purchase my own boat. Through all the ups and downs and uncertainty I have not regretted a single day, ok maybe one or two Lol. I think our greatest enemy is our own thoughts causing insecurity. Those thoughts appear to cease the moment the wind passes 15 knots and are replaced by the call of attention from our boats, what better friend is there then a friend who makes you forget about your troubles. My friend is The Sand Pebble. See you on a windlass thread.


Title: Re: Alternator upgrade from Catalina direct.
Post by: KWKloeber on March 20, 2022, 11:35:19 AM
@S/V SP

Gongratulations on the install done!!  :clap :clap :clap

Quote

I install a 120 amp breaker in my 100 amp alternator circuit



I don't follow you on the above?  What do you mean "breaker."  Where?

-ken
Title: Re: Alternator upgrade from Catalina direct.
Post by: Jon W on March 20, 2022, 12:07:58 PM
I wondered the same thing Ken. Could it be to shut the power off in the engine compartment for maintenance?
Title: Re: Alternator upgrade from Catalina direct.
Post by: KWKloeber on March 20, 2022, 09:08:29 PM
Unsure, Jon

But I’m thinking coming from the industrial electrician side and not DC boat systems, he might have fused the output cable from the new alternator.
Title: Re: Alternator upgrade from Catalina direct.
Post by: SV Sand Pebble on March 21, 2022, 05:24:58 AM

    Hello all.
  I fused my alternator at the battery large enough hopefully to avoid nuisance tripping yet offer protection in the extremely unlikely case of some sort of a short. The whole engine is ground so the wire breaking off, falling off or an object falling upon or being dropped will hopefully trip the breaker limiting damage. I know it's unlikely that such a thing should happen and we would lose our alternator diodes but that maybe a small price to pay. I am open to other opinions always. Below I leave a link to Pacific Yachting's video on why suggest fusing and or I take breakering the alternator, all they do at a large scale is electrical on boats. Again I'm always open to take a new look at things.

   
https://youtu.be/Y5HNd7S59RM
Title: Re: Alternator upgrade from Catalina direct.
Post by: KWKloeber on March 21, 2022, 06:51:31 AM
@S/V SP

Ohhhhhhhhhj, gotcha. Of course!
EVERYTHING should be fused at the power source. 

I don’t buy into PY’s statement that he doesn’t recommend it on the starter - below in the comments he explains it’s because of “Do I have a spare fuse if it blows?” and cost.  Really? MBRFs aren’t a budget buster.
What B.S.!  And then he admits that he has his starting circuit fused at the battery. 
So which is it - Do as I don’t say, or Say as I don’t do?  :donno: :donno:

If you want to see a top, top shelf electrical upgrade read Jon’s write up on Della Jean the TechWiki!!
Title: Re: Alternator upgrade from Catalina direct.
Post by: Stu Jackson on March 21, 2022, 01:40:39 PM

   
  I fused my alternator at the battery large enough hopefully to avoid nuisance tripping yet offer protection in the extremely unlikely case of some sort of a short. The whole engine is ground so the wire breaking off, falling off or an object falling upon or being dropped will hopefully trip the breaker limiting damage. I know it's unlikely that such a thing should happen and we would lose our alternator diodes but that maybe a small price to pay. I am open to other opinions always. .....................
.....................

Sand Pebbles,

Putting a fuse on the AO (alternator output) is a wise thing to do.  While the AO sends electrons TO the batteries, the fuse actually provides protection FROM a battery short whether the alternator is running or not.  While most think incorrectly that the alternator is the source of power being protected, it is actually the BOMB of the batteries that this fuse is protecting you from. If you've run your AO directly to the house bank, then the fuse/breaker can be used as a disconnect for when you work on the alternator, which is always live otherwise.  Maine Sail recommends an alternator disconnect switch and a fuse.  I just remove my MEGA fuse when I work on the alternator.  I also added a ground wire from the alternator to the engine ground when I installed my 100A Blue Circle alternator eons ago.
Title: Re: Alternator upgrade from Catalina direct.
Post by: SV Sand Pebble on March 21, 2022, 08:09:21 PM
     Stu Jackson wrote: Putting a fuse on the AO (alternator output) is a wise thing to do.  While the AO sends electrons TO the batteries, the fuse actually provides protection FROM a battery short whether the alternator is running or not.  While most think incorrectly that the alternator is the source of power being protected, it is actually the BOMB of the batteries that this fuse is protecting you from. If you've run your AO directly to the house bank, then the fuse/breaker can be used as a disconnect for when you work on the alternator, which is always live otherwise.  Maine Sail recommends an alternator disconnect switch and a fuse".

  Response: I used a 120 amp breaker AWG 1 wire for my alternator. My starter circuit is fused at 200 amp, so far its been good. You have enlightened me on the fact that it's the battery more so then the alternator that it's a great idea to fuse or breaker the alternator circuit. I installed a breaker for the convenience of safety and as you said an on-off switch. A note: I ran my alternator wire straight to my starter battery/windlass battery under the forward compartment of my salon table. For now till I find away to add an external regulator I am charging my four Trojans through a 30 amp DC to DC charger. Later with an external regulator I have enough wire to shorten my alternator wire and take it to the house bank. Then I will charge my starter battery with the DC to DC charger getting 3 stage charging for all in every way.   
    With all Victron charging equipment I can upgrade to lithium when prices fall and all have to do is reprogram. Hey anyone, my DC to DC charger has setting for lithium and two presents for AGM yet nothing for plain lead acid. A user can put in his own set points for bulk, absorption and float? Right now I have the DC to DC charger on AGM 1 as seen in my attachment. I want to get it as perfect as possible, thanks again. Stu, I think it was your diagram for the most part I followed for my upgrade. I loved what I think was Jon's design but I decided to reach for the moon and not the stars, Jon my God, well done. Stu, your was simple and to the point. Both appear to be excellent and an asset to any of us doing such an upgrade, thank you.

   

Title: Re: Alternator upgrade from Catalina direct.
Post by: SV Sand Pebble on March 21, 2022, 08:22:47 PM
 
  Ken

  Ken wrote: If you want to see a top, top shelf electrical upgrade read Jon’s write up on Della Jean the TechWiki!!

  Response: I did read all that. I was blown away at all the attention to detail. Sometimes I feel this site is just full of engineers.