Catalina 34

General Activities => Main Message Board => Topic started by: eisjeff on January 20, 2022, 11:38:16 AM

Title: GFI not installed
Post by: eisjeff on January 20, 2022, 11:38:16 AM
My 1996 doesn't have a GFI on the AC system. Previous owner removed GFI as it kept going off. I have checked the entire AC system, all appears to be properly wired and ground. Yet when I put the GFI back in, it goes off.

Suggestions?
Title: Re: GFI not installed
Post by: Noah on January 20, 2022, 12:06:51 PM
Try a new GFI? They do go bad.
Title: Re: GFI not installed
Post by: KWKloeber on January 20, 2022, 12:53:47 PM
EIS

Presuming you tried a new GFCI and it trips, then you have leakage somewhere.  :cry4`
From hot to ground (or neutral to ground -  i.e., the current is not returning back via the neutral leg.) The GFCI measures the current in the hot leg and neutral leg, and trips if they are not equal (within tolerance.)

So you could systematically disconnect/remove receptacles (or whatever else is) on the circuit until she no longer trips.  Of course, have nothing plugged in so you eliminate an equipment issue.  When you find what caused it to trip, replace it.  (it could be a wiring issue, not just a faulty receptacle.)
Of course - work on the receptacles with the shore power disconnected.  :shock: :shock:

Another way is to check the entire circuit as-is for leakage -- from the GFCI location on.  You should have "zero" continuity between the hot/neutral and neutral/ground with everything unplugged, but you need a very sensitive (and accurate) meter.  If my math is correct, the resistance between legs must be greater than 0.0002 ohms otherwise the CFCI can trip. 
Or alternately could measure the current traveling down the hot leg with nothing plugged in.  It should be less than 4 milliamp, otherwise, the GFCI can trip.
Title: Re: GFI not installed
Post by: Ron Hill on January 21, 2022, 03:10:11 PM
eis : If a GFIC "pops" --- It is TRYING to tell tell you something!!!!!!    :shock:

A thought
Title: Re: GFI not installed
Post by: eisjeff on January 23, 2022, 05:47:21 PM
I have replaced the GFI. taken everything off the system after the GFI, checked all the other connections and wires and still when something is plugged into the GFI it pops. There in lies the issue. I know it iw trying to tell me something but what I can't figure out.
Title: Re: GFI not installed
Post by: KWKloeber on January 23, 2022, 07:18:14 PM
It is a new GFCI?

What are you plugging in?

What is the resistance from hot to ground and neutral to ground
Title: Re: GFI not installed
Post by: Ted Pounds on January 24, 2022, 05:34:22 AM
I had a GFI panel breaker at home that kept tripping.   After a lot of trouble shooting discovered it was a NEUTRAL fault.   The neutral was grounded before the return to the panel.  Not sure if this helps, but I thought I'd throw it out there...
Title: Re: GFI not installed
Post by: Jim Hardesty on January 24, 2022, 06:33:11 AM
Here is my GFI story.  When I first got Shamrock had rare intermittent GFI trips.  Did the usual troubleshooting but didn't find anything amiss.  Just lived with it.  Sometime later was doing another project and discovered a bad crimp, wire pulled out, on the neutral ring connector to a receptacle.  Checked all the receptacles and found one other bad crimp.  Both were from factory.  Haven't had a GFI trip since.  Thats my GFI story.
I'm no electric expert but was thinking could GFI tripping come from dockside plug, shore power cord, or someplace upstream from the GFI?  Or possibly something wired into the boats AC not thru the outlets?
Jim
Title: Re: GFI not installed
Post by: KWKloeber on January 24, 2022, 07:11:15 AM
Jim,

In a word, "Yes."
Virtually anywhere there's a leakage that unbalances the current in the hot leg vs the neutral leg could cause a trip. They are very touchy animals.  And it gets worse trying to tie it down if the leakage point is intermittent.  Checking the resistance in the whole loop can confirm IF there's a fault (if you happen to hit the intermittent event) but not its LOCATION.   
Title: Re: GFI not installed
Post by: Ron Hill on January 24, 2022, 02:51:30 PM
Guys : You only have 5 outlets with the GFI being one of them ( nav table, V berth, aft cabin, head and galley).  I'd get rid of the ring connectors and hard wire directly to the 115V outlet (just like your home wiring).  As I recall?? the MK I C34s are wired like that!?!

A thought.
Title: Re: GFI not installed
Post by: KWKloeber on January 24, 2022, 04:09:01 PM
As far as any information I've seen, household receptacles are designed and approved for ONLY solid wire, not stranded.

YBYC, but just let your insurance carrier know so it can be noted.  If there's a fire, doing it not to code shouldn't affect everyone else's premium.
Title: Re: GFI not installed
Post by: Noah on January 24, 2022, 04:19:26 PM
How about using a ferrule on the stranded wire?
Title: Re: GFI not installed
Post by: KWKloeber on January 24, 2022, 09:21:14 PM
How would one 'turn' a ferrule'd wire end around a screw? 
The wire ends need to encircle the screw and be pinched closed.

Why not just a properly crimped terminal?
I used heat shrink rings, but a reasonable alternative would be 'captive' forks or the half-ring terminals (removing and replacing the receptacle screws to get full-ring terminals on there can be a PITA.)
Title: Re: GFI not installed
Post by: Noah on January 25, 2022, 09:04:26 AM
Some GFIs have holes to push the wire ends into and then you tighten down the clamp screw. That is why I suggested a ferrule.
Title: Re: GFI not installed
Post by: KWKloeber on January 25, 2022, 01:19:00 PM
Understood, but would a 12-ga wire w/ a ferrule fit thu a hole sized for a 12-ga wire (besides it also wouldn't be approved so same insurance notification)?

I know there's different configurations, like push-in backs (can be used only w/ solid conductors) and Shamrock's issue below was with terminals on two receptacles, not the GFCI itself.

Maybe I'm dense but I just don't see the benefit of a workaround -- if there were bad terminal wire crimps on the shore power cable at the distribution panel, or bad butt crimps on a bilge pump -- find a workaround or simply re-do them w/ proper electrical crimps?  I guess it's just a YBYC thing.
Title: Re: GFI not installed
Post by: Ron Hill on January 25, 2022, 02:32:06 PM
Guys : I don't believe that a household receptacle would know the difference between solid or stranded wire!!

If you have trouble with the stranded wire, just tin the end before you attach it to the screw.

A thought
Title: Re: GFI not installed
Post by: KWKloeber on January 25, 2022, 03:17:30 PM
ABSOLUTELY not an approved method to wire a receptacle - neither National Electrical Code or ABYC. But what the hell do we care about electrical codes?

ABYC -all terminations MUST be with a properly crimped wire terminal, no wire simply twisted around a screw.
NEC - no stranded wire on a receptacle terminals, GFCI or otherwise.

YBYC, but please make your insurance carrier aware so you don't affect everyone else's premium if there's a claim for a fire.
AND let your dock neighbor know as well so they can decide de whether to move (or have the marina move you.)

This is electricity we're discussing not a half-assed, Rube Goldberg, jackleg (insert other appropriate adjective) clamp on a potable water line (insert other non boat/human-life threatening noun.)
Title: Re: GFI not installed
Post by: waughoo on January 25, 2022, 07:51:55 PM
I am with Ken here.  The captive fork terminals are what I use for all wiring when going from the boat's stranded copper to the terminal screw on an outlet.  To me, the logic isn't any different than putting a ring terminal on a 12v wire to land it on a terminal buss.  I wouldn't ever wrap a 12v wire around a terminal block screw; and that's ONLY 12 volts!!! We are taling about 120v here. Convenience isn't worth the risk to me.  The standards are set due to experience with things that went wrong.  Why tempt fate.
Title: Re: GFI not installed
Post by: eisjeff on January 28, 2022, 09:10:02 AM
Thanks all. All good information. I have changed the GFI, taken everything connected to the GFI off the circuit, checked all the connections including the connection to the boat, but haven't checked the entire length of the main cable coming from the boat to shore connection to the distribution center on the boat. That will be my next step in the spring once the boat is uncovered.
Title: Re: GFI not installed
Post by: Noah on January 28, 2022, 10:09:02 AM
The problem I found with the GFI's I have used with screw terminal connections, is that screws are held captive. They will only unscrew out to a certain point then stop and cannot be removed to slip on a ring terminal. In that case, fork crimps are all that work.
Title: Re: GFI not installed
Post by: KWKloeber on January 28, 2022, 11:03:59 AM
Noah you're much wiser than I was!!!  Where were you when I needed that tip.

They came out with a little persuasion and the right screwdriver - but what an FnPITA to get em back in.  I believe 12 receptacles (put duplex AC and duplex DC receptacles within 3' of anything/anywhere w/o needing to ever use an ext cord in every place I'd ever use a plug in + the TV.) I think I used rings only because that was the original and what I had on hand. Never again!!
Title: Re: GFI not installed
Post by: Ron Hill on January 28, 2022, 02:30:44 PM
Then use a fork connector and solder the tip where the wire comes out of the crimp!!

A thought
Title: Re: GFI not installed
Post by: KWKloeber on January 28, 2022, 08:16:18 PM
Quote from: Ron Hill on January 28, 2022, 02:30:44 PM
Then use a fork connector and solder the tip where the wire comes out of the crimp!!

A thought


Ron

Re: fork, One's Boat, One's Choice, but personally I use only heat shrink terminals -- so there's "no wire coming out of the crimp" to solder. 
I don't want corrosion potentially getting to a conductor when the only time it will have eyes-on, is if a problem occurs.

I may be missing why one would need to solder a properly done crimp (w/a controlled cycle tool that is.)
Title: Re: GFI not installed
Post by: Ron Hill on January 29, 2022, 01:49:33 PM
Ken : I've soldered every connect on my C34 that I can get to!!  The best electrical connection is a soldered connection!!! 

I've NEVER had an electrical connection problem since!!!

My thought 
Title: Re: GFI not installed
Post by: KWKloeber on February 02, 2022, 08:32:29 AM
Ron

So are you using Stakon terminals (so that you have an exposed front end to solder) and then heat shrinking the back side?

I'm interested in data that a soldered terminal has lower resistance (for the range of currents we are talking about) than a properly done (controlled cycle crimped) adhesive-heat-shrink terminal and that the non-AHS terminal provides as much wire strain resistance as the AHS terminal.  Have you done any (resistance) readings of your soldered v. crimped terminals?

I'm all for soldering a battery cable lug but looking for some justification to go outside the norm for low-current terminals.  Does solder add anything to a solid hunk of metal that's the result of a proper crimping?
 
(photo courtesy Rod Collins)
Title: Re: GFI not installed
Post by: Ron Hill on February 02, 2022, 02:21:34 PM
Ken : I slide a short piece of heat shrink (inch?) up the wire, solder the tip end and then slide the HS down over the crimp to the solder and hit it with a heat gun.  On an existing crimped terminal, I use a small dab of "electrical liquid tape" - to seal things up.  On a closed end terminal, I drill a small hole for the solder to flow in. 

A few thoughts