I am getting ready yo pull the trigger on a Sure Marine diesel boiler install and wanted to find out if any current users have one and could share their component installation spots. The one I am most interested to know is the expansion tank/headder tank. I am considering mounting this in the cockpit coaming with a deck plate over the cap. This will put an inspection plate in the cocpit coaming top which isnt my first choice but seems to be the best solution I can come up with. Does anyone else have any alternate spots?
NOTE: The boiler will be mounted on the aft bulkhead in the port lazerette. The headder tank needs to be ABOVE the furnace. If someone has an alternate furnace/boiler location that has worked for them, I am all ears!!
Watching :clap
Moving this back to the top in hopes that someone has installed one and can share their experience.
I'm also interested in the topic
Holger
Whelp... not much action on this post. I have given Sure Marine Service the go ahead to build the kit of parts for my hydronic system. I should have the parts next week I suspect. I will do my best to document the install in a future post. If anyone sees this post and already has a hydronic system installed, I am still very much interested to know more about anyone else's install.
Hello Alex,
We have a 2004 mk2 that we bought (used) with an Espar Hydronic heater installed.
The diesel boiler is installed on the forward bulkhead of the aft starboard locker and the expansion tank is in the same locker but mounted on the port bulkhead beside the shower box. My mk2 might be different than your mk1.5.
I have 3 heat exchangers, one under the sink in the head, which has 3 ducts, one to the aft cabin, one to the companion way, and the 3rd to the head. The second HE is located in the salon under the SB setee. This HE is controlled only by the thermostat installed by the nav station. The 3rd HE is in the V berth. Both the V berth and Aft cabins have a High - Off - Low switch.
Let me know if you have other questions. If you would like, I can take and send photos this weekend when we are back out on the boat.
Cheers,
Craig
Craig,
This is SUPER helpful information. Does the HE in the head have more than one fan or just a single fan (for the three ducts)?
My plan thus far us to have a HE for the head and aft cabin, one in the hanging locker blowing out to the salon via under the nav station, and a double HE under the stbd setee that has two fans with separate ducts allowing one port to the V-berth and one to the salon.
The boiler will likely get mounted in the port laz aft bulkhead (large one in the cockpit) and the expansion tank in the coaming with a deck plate for access. It is going to be a bit tricky, but workabe.
How do you like yours?
an older Panbo article might be useful, also some additional references mentioned
https://panbo.com/ode-to-hydronic-boat-heating-and-sure-marine-service/
Quote from: wingman on February 16, 2022, 05:55:32 PM
an older Panbo article might be useful, also some additional references mentioned
https://panbo.com/ode-to-hydronic-boat-heating-and-sure-marine-service/
That is quite the complex system. What is the reasoning for such a system when you can achieve the same thing with a diesel heater and 2000 watt generator?
I have seen that panbo article and it is a pretty great explanation.
As for why, I want to have hot water at anchor without listening to an engine or haveing the anchorage listening to my engine (main engine or generator). I am not sure what you meant by a diesel heater, but perhaps you were talking about the wall mounted kind with a stack... I don't want chimney's on deck. Also, the size of holes needed to get ducting forward for a forced air unit is pretty challenging.
Plus... I love elegantly designed systems. Where you see complicated, I see elegant.
Quote from: waughoo on February 17, 2022, 03:04:47 PM
I am not sure what you meant by a diesel heater, but perhaps you were talking about the wall mounted kind with a stack... I don't want chimney's on deck. Also, the size of holes needed to get ducting forward for a forced air unit is pretty challenging.
A diesel heater like this Chinese model or a Webasto, or Eberspacher.
https://www.amazon.com/Tseipoaoi-Thermostat-Silencer-Campervans-Motorhomes/dp/B07VT24CLK/ref=sr_1_9?crid=RSOI4U9T83I2&keywords=diesel+heater&qid=1645153037&sprefix=Deisel%2Caps%2C498&sr=8-9
I have 2/12" ducting run to 3 registers. Yes, it is a PITA to run but probably easier than the hydronic unit. I found I need only run the generator for 20-30 min. for hot water at anchor.
The gas gen is just not something I am interested in. I would need to keep yet another fuel aboard and so on and so on. I like the complexity and what it offers me in return.
HiAlex,
The HE under the sink in the head has two fans. One is controlled by the salon thermostat and provides heat the head and to the companion way. The other fan is dedicated to the aft cabin and is controlled by a Hi - Low - Off switch in the aft cabin.
Cheers,
Craig
Thanks Craig. Currently my set up is looking like a split heat exchanger at the starboard forward corner of the dinette that has one fan for V berth and the second for the salon. Another heat exchanger somewhere in the hanging locker that exits under the nav station controlled in tandem with the other salon fan, and a third heat exchanger somewhere near the head that is split between the head and the aft cabin.
Got started on the furnace install. First step was to install the transom exit exhaust. There was an unused cable gland in the upper port corner of the transom that I wanted to get rid of. The exhaust fitting ended up fitting nicely in this spot. To get a proper angle on the hole saw, I made a block as a guide that had the angle of the exhaust fitting which in this case was 60 degrees.
Now that I had the exhaust location made, I could start routing the 22mm exhaust back to where the heater would be installed. There are small aluminum standoffs installed under the cockpit coaming which it gets lagged to. The factory partition for the port cockpit locker over the fuel tank is maybe 1/4" ply. Unfortunately it was not strong enough for mounting things. I used it as a pattern and then fit it in place and installed the heater on its bracket, the muffler for the exhaust and the small exhaust thimble required to pass exhaust through combustible bulkheads.
After that was sorted I removed the bulkhead with the heater mounted on it and started to layout the other components on the board. The fact that this bulkhead is removeable makes this SO much easier. Had this all had to be layed out doing boat yoga inside this lazzerette, it would not have been this nice! The expansion tank (large black cylinder) will be mounted on the "instrument cluster" side of the bulkhead up high near the top of the coaming. There will be a stainless deck plate in the coaming to allow access to the cap. I am still sorting out exactly where everything will go, but it is starting to come together.
Quote from: waughoo on May 07, 2022, 10:06:52 PM
Now that I had the exhaust location made, I could start routing the 22mm exhaust back to where the heater would be installed. There are small aluminum standoffs installed under the cockpit coaming which it gets lagged to. The factory partition for the port cockpit locker over the fuel tank is maybe 1/4" ply. Unfortunately it was not strong enough for mounting things. I used it as a pattern and then fit it in place and installed the heater on its bracket, the muffler for the exhaust and the small exhaust thimble required to pass exhaust through combustible bulkheads.
Does your exhaust have a drain at the low point? I don't see one. You will have condensation issues without one.
I asked about installing one and Sure Marine who are the go to place to get these units from said I didn't need one. It could be added later but aparently they felt the design and layout didnt need it.
Quote from: waughoo on May 08, 2022, 12:30:33 PM
I asked about installing one and Sure Marine who are the go to place to get these units
Sure Marine installed my old heater 30 some years ago! The have the experience.
Indeed they do! I am very happy that they are in my backyard and I can stop in regularly for advice and additional parts . The exhaust has a rather thick blanket which will likely help with any condensation issues. It seems to me that the amount of heat would simply evaporate any condensation, but I am no expert.
The original heater they installed (same location as yours) had the exhaust wrapped in thick fiberglass blanket ( still have it). It ran downhill to the transom so condensation ran out. It had no muffler and only a single bend upwards to the downhill side.
That is a nice way to have it. If I had gone with the airtop, I would have mounted it high in the coaming and done exactly as you say with an all downhill exhaust run.
Mark,
Out of curiousity I asked Sure why they didnt sell me an exhaust condensate drain. Eric said that with my exhaust length (5.5') and the fact it is wrapped in the fiberglass blanket, none is needed. The only condensation will exist when the boiler is first fired up and the hot exhaust will resolve that in short order. They start to come into play when there is uphill climb on a very long exhaust... 10' or longer. Good to know the answer.
Quote from: waughoo on May 09, 2022, 07:22:16 PM
Mark,
Out of curiousity I asked Sure why they didnt sell me an exhaust condensate drain. Eric said that with my exhaust length (5.5') and the fact it is wrapped in the fiberglass blanket, none is needed.
That makes sense. The only thing is the muffler has more volume that straight pipe. Also, what is the total length of the exhaust run? I think there are limitations on 25mm pipe.
The exhaust run is 66" and is well below the 22mm run limit. The muffler is set on a vertical face so the insulation doesnt absorb any condensation. The one place I might want to be careful will be when I use it in summer loop mode for heating just the water tank. As long as it runs for about 3 minutes I feel any condensation would be dried out.
Can you fire it up in your garage first?
Prob not in the garage, but I do hope to fire it up after enough parts are installed to drop the supply and return into a bucket and see if it all does what it is supposed to. Sure marine did do a test fire of the unit before I bought it: it has .2 hours on the clock. Not sure when that will be yet, but I am making progress.
Looks great Alex! Hot water on anchor without running the engine, great!
Thanks Logo. It is a LONG process, but fun to see it come together.
I needed to install a deck plate for access to the boiler expansion tank fill cap. This has to be the highest part in the system. The cockpit coaming was the only logical place due to where I mounted the webasto. I didn't want a plastic fitting and found a sea dog brand polished stainless smooth face fitting. In an effort to make it look factory, I used a router template to relieve the surface to allow it to sit flush.
The coaming had a slight concave shape to the surface and thus this was as flush as I could get it. The eagle eyed will note the router jumped the template and got a bit of the gel coat on the outboard side. Fortunately it isn't that noticable afyer it has been filled with sealant.
A quick test fit of the expansion tank showing the alignment and access to the fill cap. Due to clearance challenges with the instrument gauges, I could not get the expansion tank any more centered, but the size of the deck plate allows for enough room to effortlessly remove the cap.
Very cool, Alex, nice work. Coat the threads with TefGel or Lanocote.
Thanks Stu... I put tef gel on the deck plug. It seemed to help keep it sliding smoothly.
Got the aft laz bulkhead painted and all the boiler parts mounted to it and installed. In the picture of the bulkhead in the cockpit, you can just see the expansion tank behind and up high.
This was the first item that got FINAL installed as part of the furnace install. It is pretty exciting to get to this spot.
Got the exhaust final installed today with the thermal blanket. It has aluminum standoffs mouted to the coaming and bulkhead to keep it in place.
Got the engine heat exchanger and H2O tank bypass/throttle valve installed. It JUST fit in the space above and behind the engine. This allows me to get waste heat from the engine to heat the glycol circuit in the hydronic circuit. It maintains the ability to make hot water when motoring. The throttling valve allows most of the glycol circuit to bypass the smaller 5/8 diameter H2O tank circuit.
Next thing I got to working on was the aft heater matrix. This has two outlets. One for the aft cabin and the other for the head. It is SQUEEZED between the head liner and the fuel tank. I had to epoxy a cleat to the head liner and then build a platform to bridge between the tank shelf and my new cleat. I added a duct boot on the intake side which will allow me to pick up air from the main salon area.
The next piece going in is the diesel pump "box". As some may know the diesel pump for these heaters can be a bit annoying if not installed in a fashion to isolate the structure born transfer of noise. This box was supplied to me by Sure Marine in seattle and is VERY impressive. The pump is mounted on a VERY soft rubber clamp. Then the fuel lines are routed in such a fashion to allow the pump to wiggle without transfering the clicks. Additionally, this box has rubber isolation feet to mount it to the bulkhead. I am SUPER curious to see what sound still transfers after it is in action.
Nice attention to detail Alex! It's coming together nicely 👍
Thanks Antoni. It is nice to be getting things installed that WONT come back out. The boat is starting to get a bit roomier as the boxes get removed :-)
I had some holes in the head aft bulkhead from was was likely a past battery charger. In order to make use of those rather than drill new holes, I built some brackets to mount the fuel pump box to and then mounted those to the bulkhead using the "spare" holes. I then tapped the fuel tank and installed the dip tube, shut off and fuel filter for the furnace. The pump box was then plumbed to the furnace with solid copper pipe.
Next up was to mount the sure wire board. This is the control box that allows the system to control multiple zones including the hot water tank (as a zone) and allows for running the system off engine waste heat. Running all this wire is quite complex. I only have a single t-stat and the water tank as a zone and the engine waste heat option. Despite that, the system wiring is RATHER complex! The main salon has a high low fan switch and the aft cabin and v-berth each have a high, low, off switch. The T-stat surns them on when a demand for heat arises and the switches in each cabin allow for some control based on user preference. The 2nd photo shows the aft cabin fan switch. The v-berth fan switch is mounted on the wall above the hanging locker.
The last two heater matrices needed platforms. One went under the nav station hamging locker and the other went under the "dead space" in the stbd fwd setee storage spot. They were both rather complicated to build, but turned out great!
The sticks shown at the fwd platform are there to hold it in possition while the thickened epoxy srts up.
The fwd heat exchanger has two independant fans and for the v-berth zone a 3" duct was more suitable for the space available. Unfortunately they didn't sell a plate that has one 3" and one 4" so ai built an adapter to accept a 3" duct transition that screws into the hole pattern of the 4" duct transition. This makes the run to the V berth less distructive to run and saves space in the fwd setee storage box where the ducting runs.
Next up was to get the fan wiring to its ultimate location providing harness plugs and then mount the heat exhangers and run some ducts to the port exits!
Here is a photo of the fwd heat exchanger showing the reason for the extended piping. This allowd the circuit plumbing to run cleanly at the back of the locker and avoid restricting access.